Why PVP is Dead or Dying. PVE is now KING!

[Cosmos]

Don't take this as a "go play EVE" snipe, but have you ever played EVE? Genuine question. If you have, what doesn't it deliver that you want? If you haven't, why not?



I did, and I don't remember any PvP in it.

I tried to get into EvE so many times and do look upon those enjoying it with envy. Its just not a game for me, I dislike so many aspects of it. I like to pilot my ships but the huge wars and player dynamism looks great to my eyes.

My point re the original Elite was that you couldnt go anywhere without combat and if you wanted to make a fortunre you accepted jeopardy. Instead ED is a treadmil of folks grinding easy gameplay mechanics without any risk. Ergo, everyone is a special snowflake. I dont see that making a great game.

 

[Bokugo]

Just slap a red flag next to a cmdr's name indicating they're an unstable pker. Just about every mmo pvp server visually shows who has been off on a killing spree by say for example changing their name red. Pirates don't really kill so this would only real target pkers.
One of the biggest issues I see is pirates get mistaken for pkers. And when you have 2 groups, 1 of which is known to kill on sight and with no way to differentiate them, they both get treated as the pk group.
This could also let pkkers know who to go after to earn some respect and a blue name/flag typically associated with a hero.

 

[twelvebore]

I tried to get into EvE so many times and do look upon those enjoying it with envy. Its just not a game for me, I dislike so many aspects of it. I like to pilot my ships.

OK, that's fine. For many people the lack of first person has been a major turn-off since forever with that game.

It does tick the "epic", "dynamic" and "'spontaneous' player moments" boxes though. It did take the best part of a decade for the first two to really come to fruition.

 

[Faded Glory]

My point re the original Elite was that you couldnt go anywhere without combat and if you wanted to make a fortunre you accepted jeopardy. Instead ED is a treadmil of folks grinding easy gameplay mechanics without any risk. Ergo, everyone is a special snowflake. I dont see that making a great game.

I played FE2 for ages, on and off for 20 years, and yes, even in that you accepted that you would get attacked (for no good reason) at any time. The difference I think is that you could save your own game whenever you wanted, and once you started to do that, setbacks were generally pretty trivial.

That said, even though combat was generally unavoidable, it was also a by-product of playing the game. There was no farming, no nav beacons, no RES, and only a few anarchy systems where you could guarantee to be attacked a lot. So I kind of agree with you that some of the gameplay (well the farming side of things) is disappointing. Perhaps it's how developers feel that players want to play the game, I don't know.

 

[twelvebore]

Go say the mantra: EVE is not for everyone, Elite Dangerous is not for everyone. People never can't get enough and 'just' want the best of 2 worlds. If it really would be so simple we already would have such a game, don't you think so?

I agree entirely. Personally I think that the best of the two worlds of EVE and ED is virtually impossible. EVE works for very specific reasons that cut across what I think ED is trying to achieve.

ED works (for me personally) in other ways, but it is still a young game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Its not personal, I hope you understand, but whilst I've heard the arguments I just cant get my head around your own pov and those who share it.

Glad to hear it. I understand that it can be difficult to understand another's point of view. Basically, the it's a general acceptance of the fundamental aspects of the game design - especially as they relate to the freedom of choice afforded to players.

I want to play a game that epic, dynamic and has great player spontaneous moments. I wished and still think ED could be that but for the restrictions and opt outs. In the absence of the game I'd like to see I'd accept an awesome PvE gameplay experience. Can you urge FD to make that? Because for the time being I find the game has fallen flat and I'm bored of it. As a 1984'er the game isn't meeting my expectations.

I have a quesion: Did you guys ever play the original Elite?

It can be that - however it requires others to want to take part. The restrictions and opt outs are part of the game design that got it backed in the first place. Is the PvE side of the game lacking in comparison to the original? It's not a game that can be scripted....

I did play the original - and enjoyed it. I can enjoy this game in the same way - without other players - if I so choose to.

The main difference between Elite and Elite: Dangerous is the other players - each with a different set of goals, desires and drivers. Whether the play-styles are sufficiently compatible for those players to co-exist is another matter entirely.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

The big issue is that there is a meta build as with most games. In other games if a meta is established it gets nerfed or other things get buffed. It is a very very fine knife edge to balance things enough to not have a 1 type meta. This is compounded by wing combat and up to 4vs1 combat.
What I'm saying here is it's an exceptionally difficult job to balance things perfectly. Not making excuses for the Devs but it is.

Railguns and stealth has been the meta since 1.4 I believe, particularly since HRP's and Imperial hammers. Prior to that it was shield tanking. Before that it was dumbfire missiles.
I do believe that's due for a shakeup, although there are a ton of changes to modified weapons, missiles and other stuff coming that may change the meta on their own.

Guys, can I just point towards Immisive munitions from todays live-streams. Circumvents silent running. They are indeed shaking up the meta (In Sandro's own words).

Just saying I called that early on

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The difficulty would seem to be that every module that could benefit traders to harden their vessel to sustain attack for long enough for them to escape will go through the meta-mill and end up in the latest flavour-of-the-month PvP build.

I agree this is an issue. Easily solveably by FD tho. Make some ships have set modules hardwired into them and not necessarily have those modules compatible with all ships

 

[GluttonyFang]

I object to the term PKer. It seems like a loaded term and I don't see anything wrong with attacking other players. It is as you say 'by design'

There is nothing wrong with Pkers, it's just that the Pk playstyle has little to no consequence, which needs to be addressed. I think we can all agree that the current system imposes little to no consequences to Pkers (outside of anarchy systems, CZ and Haz-RES).

 

[Cosmos]

There is nothing wrong with Pkers, it's just that the Pk playstyle has little to no consequence, which needs to be addressed. I think we can all agree that the current system imposes little to no consequences to Pkers (outside of anarchy systems, CZ and Haz-RES).

I'd accept your point IF PvP had meaning and merit and for that to be the case we'd need to change the game to promote adversarial play over player vs the BGS.

As it stands what is the purpose of Open play? There is absolutely no reason for anyone to play in it. Sadly so much of the game better serves the player if they play solo.

It makes me sad to say this but if CCP made EvE play like ED in terms of ship command (piloting the cockpit etc) no one would see me for dust around here. Tired of the forced scripted PvE only gameplay rather than emergent sandbox player created stuff.

 

[frostypaw]

As it stands what is the purpose of Open play? There is absolutely no reason for anyone to play in it.

Other people?

Lots of them are quite nice. Some just want a green dot on the map.

There's another thread for that which is doing a better job though.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I'd accept your point IF PvP had meaning and merit and for that to be the case we'd need to change the game to promote adversarial play over player vs the BGS.

As it stands what is the purpose of Open play? There is absolutely no reason for anyone to play in it. Sadly so much of the game better serves the player if they play solo.

It makes me sad to say this but if CCP made EvE play like ED in terms of ship command (piloting the cockpit etc) no one would see me for dust around here. Tired of the forced scripted PvE only gameplay rather than emergent sandbox player created stuff.

I understand the frustration of Pking having little to no impact on the world seems to trivialize a portion of PvP, but I think the first step forward is to ensure that non-contextual killing is addressed to provide people a sense of security in at least some region of space for them to venture back into Open.

 

[CMDR Derrida]

There's another thread for that which is doing a better job though.

No, it is not. The thread that must not be named only serves to drive people nuts.

 

[DaveB]

I understand the frustration of Pking having little to no impact on the world seems to trivialize a portion of PvP, but I think the first step forward is to ensure that non-contextual killing is addressed to provide people a sense of security in at least some region of space for them to venture back into Open.

This. I've absolutely zero problem being attacked by another player if there's a valid in-game reason for them to do so. - either they want what's in my hold, I'm doing something to the detriment of their favorite power or faction, there's a bounty on me and they want to claim it, whatever... What's got me totally cheesed off with playing in open is the guys that will fry my ship for just being a hollow blip on their scanner, for no reason other than that they can and because they are in a min/maxed combat ship that unless I'm flying something similar (and therefore totally unsuited to doing what I actually want to in the game) I'm going to be dead in seconds no matter how good a pilot I might be.

 

[Jenner]

No, it is not. The thread that must not be named only serves to drive people nuts.

So pretty much most of them?

 

[DaveB]

So pretty much most of them?

Careful, Jenner.. your cynicism and misanthropy is showing a bit Not saying most of us don't share those characteristics of course..

 

[frostypaw]

No, it is not. The thread that must not be named only serves to drive people nuts.

Aww has it gone south?

This is what happens when you go play the game for a few hours, disaster again!

 

[Zeta Legion]

I'd accept your point IF PvP had meaning and merit and for that to be the case we'd need to change the game to promote adversarial play over player vs the BGS.

As it stands what is the purpose of Open play? There is absolutely no reason for anyone to play in it. Sadly so much of the game better serves the player if they play solo.

It makes me sad to say this but if CCP made EvE play like ED in terms of ship command (piloting the cockpit etc) no one would see me for dust around here. Tired of the forced scripted PvE only gameplay rather than emergent sandbox player created stuff.

The 'merit' of PvP from a meta standpoint is to harass and bully other players, so-called 'seal clubbing', or if two pilots with more money than time on their hands feel like having a throw-down either to ship destruction or some hull percentage. It's a vestigial appendage at best where the only outcomes are negative, and those that feed off of negativity; the winner gets his victory high at the expense of the loser, who also gets a repair bill for good measure.

 

[Julio Montega]

I understand the frustration of Pking having little to no impact on the world seems to trivialize a portion of PvP, but I think the first step forward is to ensure that non-contextual killing is addressed to provide people a sense of security in at least some region of space for them to venture back into Open.

While it is a step forward to put in suitable crime and punishment systems,
the NPCs that try to put you to justice need some buffs, too.
It is totally o.k. to be intercepted by a wing of police Vipers MKIII,
individual ships however won't be any challenge.

Also those wings would need a combined "masslock" system,
adding the masslock factor of each ship in the vicinity (2,5km for vipers to my testing)
resulting in preventing going to SC.
However the wanted CMDR will still be able to go to High wake.
To counter the simple high-wake and return, the police has to evolve staying alert of said CMDR,
right away spawning in when he enters the system, trying to interdict him again and again.
Also alert nearby systems of the same governing big faction or systems where a small faction
is active who put up the bounty.

The bounty should not stay tied to a specific system like we have now,
but be extended to the major faction when a bounty threshold has been passed.

 

[Maruun]

Its not personal, I hope you understand, but whilst I've heard the arguments I just cant get my head around your own pov and those who share it.

I want to play a game that epic, dynamic and has great player spontaneous moments. I wished and still think ED could be that but for the restrictions and opt outs. In the absence of the game I'd like to see I'd accept an awesome PvE gameplay experience. Can you urge FD to make that? Because for the time being I find the game has fallen flat and I'm bored of it. As a 1984'er the game isn't meeting my expectations.

I have a quesion: Did you guys ever play the original Elite?

My perspective on ED.
I want to play a game. Where i can have fun and seek my own interesting playstyle and invest my free time into it. Experience of other online sandbox games showed me how much of a impact other players can have to it. It can be positive in a immersive awesome way, or in a disturbing intrusive obnoxious way. The later ones as i learned is more likely to happen.

ED gives me the choice, to be outside of player interaction that could otherwise have different effects on my gameplay.
If i want to be in a close community that shares the same interest then me.
Or take the "whole" experience, with full player interaction be good or bad.

In other games that would use the same mechanic i would most likely only choose closed community.
In ED i am using more the Open-play. Why?
Its simple, outside of the ruleset i have a direct impact INGAME how big my interaction are with players. Saying the galaxy is huge is a understatement. Depending on where i am, player interactions are nonexistent or absolutely mindboggeling.

People think Open is a complete nightmare...nope its not its a huge area with a procentual tiny amount of players, mostly concentrated near CG or other POI for players relevant.

And PVP-Pirate groups that try to interfere with CGs are welcomed, they give exactly that what i wanted a immersive gameplay experience.
PvP-Groups that hunt newbies or stuff that can be called borderline "griefing" well for that i have the choice to avoid them or change my ruleset...better then crying on the forums about it.

But ED give me more, i had several times that i got P2P connection with someone with a absolute horrendous ping, to the point where my game lagged so hard out that i literaly waited 5 minutes infront of a station waiting for getting a response for my docking request. All with that while trying to smuggel illegal goods and trying to avoid being scanned by lagged out security forces.
In that moment i was THANKFULL to be able to switch to solo...

So i care about how i am able to spend my time playing a game. If someone things he can have fun at my cost i will make it so that i can have fun too. I am not a competive player, i dont have any interest in a sandbox game for PvP because it will always be "unfair" the question is always how can i have fun out of a situation that is not in my favor...easy for me aslogn his actions are reasonable...as i mentioned pirates trying to interfere with a CG is a example.

PvP-Pirates dont have it easy i know, the moment you try to get the cargo from someone he is already recharging his FSD and on his way. Just for them i would like to see a way to stop a bold player from just jump away, but still giving him a chance the escape.
A higher kill bounty that encourage getting cargo without killing a ship.
Maybe i am a bit naive about that and i have no idea how to implement something like that. But PvP is a part of ED to make a universe believeable without it, it would be all heroes and the no real "evil" to find outside of narrtives.