Engineer weapon crafting needs to be rethought (if what we suspect is true)

Thanks Mods. Much Better now :)

If you look at how looting and crafting has changed over the last few years, there is a trend to move away from using pure RNG as a mechanism for obtaining the items with the most desirable features.

We have moved away from need before greed, or pure random drops into mechanics which can guarantee a player gets the items they want albeit after they do X,Y or Z

There has to be a reason for that, and the reason is I believe is that players are more selective and want to have the fate of their gameplay in their own hands.

I have no issues with using RNG(in any shape or form) to determine things in a game, after all our encounters with NPC's in game is a refined RNG. But what my main concern is, is that there is no safety net for the player, the fate of what the player ends up with is NOT in their control, but in some randomly assisted skinner box mechanic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c )

I've seen a few points made, which on the face of it seem reasonable but to me at least on reflection they don't hold water.

1. It avoids min-maxing.
Not really, people are not going to want to settle for a FSD that does 3 less LY's than their friend, they're not going to want to have the healing beam on their lasers when someone else gets a heat ray. All they will do is collect the mats and try, try again. This inevitably leads to frustration, annoyance and in a lot of cases just giving up and not playing any more.

It doesn't avoid min-maxing it simply delays it and puts it behind a repetition wall.

2. These aren't engineers but tinkerers and the improvements are small anyway
Great, love it. But.. if the improvements are too small to matter, then what's the point? and if they do matter then the tolerances they show would be unacceptable in the 21st century,. let alone the 31st. I mean an increase in say 5 tons in mass or 10% more heat is hardly negligible. Heck if tolerances in my car were that lax I wouldn't dare drive it.

3. It adds variation
Sure. But there are better, more player deterministic ways of doing it. For example. Have the RNG slot machine work all the way up to the maximum level. At the maximum level have the player use the blue siders to tune what they want, but let the red sliders work to provide the balance to what the player does. E.g want the max DPS, then you'll need to sacrifice heat, power and weight.

Let the player determine the variation, not the RNG
 
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It seems more like they are trying to create more carrot to chase. Only there are about two dozen carrots, and they all have their own stick which is constantly changing size, and you may wind up with many carrots, except none of them are the carrot you were chasing to begin with.

What makes it even worse is you have nowhere to store your proliferation of carrots.

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The result would be multiple websites stating exactly how players should set the sliders to max the results, which will result in everybody but the most eccentric having exactly the same build (again) and making this feature just a pure time sink. cue posts about "could we please get rid of the sliders. they add nothing to the game anyway".
Keep the RNG I say.

There will be forum posts and websites detailing exactly which combination of stat boosts are most advantageous either way, except thanks to the RNG it's going to take the average player 100x as long to obtain the optimal build. It's like you've never played a game with RNG and multiplayer elements before.
 
3. It adds variation
Sure. But there are better, more player deterministic ways of doing it. For example. Have the RNG slot machine work all the way up to the maximum level. At the maximum level have the player use the blue siders to tune what they want, but let the red sliders work to provide the balance to what the player does. E.g want the max DPS, then you'll need to sacrifice heat, power and weight.

Let the player determine the variation, not the RNG

This is sort of the primary issue... variation. I want a specific effect X, I don't give a hoot if it fries my ship or jettisons my cargo when I use it, but I want it. Can haz?
 
As it looks in the livestreams/newsletters every aspect of a weapon augmentation is determined in 1 player roll. You can re-roll 10 times to get the perfect primary stats but your secondary stats might be terrible. On top of that, you could get the special effect on the weapon you wanted, an effect you don't want, or nothing at all. This is all too much to randomize in 1 roll, FD. Unless you have a system in place to further re-roll an engineer augmented weapon for higher costs.

Where do you get this re roll 10 times from? You can roll as often as you like, bonuses can be overwritten.
 
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I'm pretty sure that in the second live stream they said once you have had a modification created you can save it as a template to make other items the same.

Meaning the OPs primary complaint is null and void.

And meaning this I'd another pointless thread of people complaining about something before it is even out to be tested.
 
I've not watched the stream yet, but to be able to choose the 'special effect' desired would be grand. "I want this-and-this to do that-and-that" ... "OK! But, turns out that you got a teapot instead..." - isn't really cutting it. If I want a flamethrower, I'm not satisfied with a calculator instead.

In fairness, though, the video strongly suggests this won't happen. What does seem to happen-at least now-is that you choose a broad weapon effect (longer range, higher damage, faster RoF) & the engineer will show you a "recipe" that will achieve that broad effect (& what materials you need to make it into a reality). Then when you go to build it, you get stats somewhat randomly.generated within the parameters first shown to you on the blueprint (how random it is we are still unsure). Any special effects are just an added bonus, & seem potentially linked to the rep.of the pilot and the category of upgrade.
 
And meaning this I'd another pointless thread of people complaining about something before it is even out to be tested.

Forums exist to be complained on, there's no other reason for forums to exist afterall.

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In fairness, though, the video strongly suggests this won't happen. What does seem to happen-at least now-is that you choose a broad weapon effect (longer range, higher damage, faster RoF) & the engineer will show you a "recipe" that will achieve that broad effect (& what materials you need to make it into a reality). Then when you go to build it, you get stats somewhat randomly.generated within the parameters first shown to you on the blueprint (how random it is we are still unsure). Any special effects are just an added bonus, & seem potentially linked to the rep.of the pilot and the category of upgrade.

Well, in my case the special effects are the actual primary effects. RoF, range, etc are the secondary and pretty much something I don't give a second look at.
 
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I'm pretty sure that in the second live stream they said once you have had a modification created you can save it as a template to make other items the same.

Meaning the OPs primary complaint is null and void.

And meaning this I'd another pointless thread of people complaining about something before it is even out to be tested.

Folks spent less time paying attention and more time jumping to conclusions.
 
If you dont have time for rerolling dont try to get the Best possible rolls. The secondary effect is a bonus.
If you want perfect stats then grind,but nobody is forcing you to do it.Its not like its some ESPORTS, pvp is more of a niche part of this game so its not that important.
 
Forums exist to be complained on, there's no other reason for forums to exist afterall.

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Well, in my case the special effects are the actual primary effects. RoF, range, etc are the secondary and pretty much something I don't give a second look at.


Then you have the wrong end of the stick. I suspect that the special effect isn't *guaranteed* until you're at a category 5 reputation with the engineer. The primary effect is the boost to basic functions, then you have other potential secondary effects beyond the special effect. No tea-pots involved though.
 
Forums exist to be complained on, there's no other reason for forums to exist afterall.
Well said! We can have different opinions on this subject without sarcasm and telling other players just dont play a certain part of the game. And I really dislike how the engineers are being implemented. Use Community Goals as an example. The rewards are not enough for players to want to participate. The same will go for the rewards for engineers if left this way.
 
The randomness of crafting is alright for me as long as I have infinite amounts of rolls. (buy a new weapon?) But storing them... where exactly? Say I want to try out a new ooadout but have a modified weapon equiped, where do I store it without selling it and without buying a brand new ship just to mount that?
Also: can we finally trade stuff? I don't want to grind the materials, I want to buy them from players or NPCw as grinding got way too boring and repetetive and furthermore: random.

The engineers update sounds promising but it still lacks in basic elements such as storing modules.
 
Then you have the wrong end of the stick. I suspect that the special effect isn't *guaranteed* until you're at a category 5 reputation with the engineer. The primary effect is the boost to basic functions, then you have other potential secondary effects beyond the special effect. No tea-pots involved though.

Aye, but it would be nice tho if you could just state "make this do X", have engineer reply "well, okay, but it'll cause this to fall and that to fry....", "Whatever! Just do it."
 
Use Community Goals as an example. The rewards are not enough for players to want to participate. The same will go for the rewards for engineers if left this way.

You have evidence for this claim? Nope, didn't think so. I love CG's, & the only thing ever stopping me from getting involved is how hard they have been to find, something they are fixing in 2.1.
 
For what it's worth, i like the randomness. It reduces min-maxing and adds uncertainty to encounters.
I certainly see it doing that. You have SCBs, they have anti-SCB weapons, so you have to leave the encounter... Or, you learning from that encounter you go for no shields and uber hull, and the next encounter is with super hull damage weapons, so you have have to leave the encounter...

Surely we're just risking more chances of their X overcomes your Y, so you have to run.. I mean who would want the opponents flying skill and combat choices to instead help dictate the outcome, when "wheel of fortune" can do it...


Anyway, hopefully it'll all come good... We'll see in a couple of days...

Personally I'm fearing the same desire ---> outcome as Powerplay though TBH.
 
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Where do you get this re roll 10 times from? You can roll as often as you like, bonuses can be overwritten.
It's an example of how many times it might take to get a perfect primary roll.

I'm pretty sure that in the second live stream they said once you have had a modification created you can save it as a template to make other items the same.

Meaning the OPs primary complaint is null and void.

And meaning this I'd another pointless thread of people complaining about something before it is even out to be tested.
Take the toxic comments elsewhere. Moderators can determine the worth of threads just fine.

Anyway, the video has no evidence of what you speak of. You can pin a recipe, but that's the upgrade variant before roll.
 
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Aye, but it would be nice tho if you could just state "make this do X", have engineer reply "well, okay, but it'll cause this to fall and that to fry....", "Whatever! Just do it."

....and then that potentially screws up game balance, & provides excessive rewards without the necessary work.
 
Apparently thread/subject duplication is now an issue, so I've been told to repost this here as the original thread was locked... I'm not being whiny with the below BTW, I just think the mechanics of games and their consequences are interesting..

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I'm actually a fan of the RNG mechanic, because it stops, at least in some ways the min/max issue and hopefully it will link parts of the game together with missions and make it fun and make ship builds unique. However I can't help but feel that as an *unavoidable* side effect of wanting a random elements in the game the mechanics now resemble a fruit machine.

Collect coins > Insert coins > Spin Wheels > Repeat until desired outcome or you run out of coins > Rinse and repeat.

They might do better by removing the special feature graphic that looks and sounds a bit like a fruit machine and maybe change it to some whizz, bang, crash, drill engineering sounds...
 
You have evidence for this claim? Nope, didn't think so. I love CG's, & the only thing ever stopping me from getting involved is how hard they have been to find, something they are fixing in 2.1.
YEAH I do have evidence. The current CG is 2/8 it ends tomorrow. So dont speak for me and in fact lets not communicate again.
 
Well, in my case the special effects are the actual primary effects. RoF, range, etc are the secondary and pretty much something I don't give a second look at.
what if say the regen beam has synergy with those stats though, what if its capable of healing more with how much damage it does? you could go with long range turrets on a really fast ship with less regen power or a shorter range heavier more powerful fixed regen beam on a bigger tankier ship
 
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