Does FD really think this is "healthy" balance?

[xondk]

That was hardly meant as an insult. You need to open your eyes. The argument really boils down to you think it's a balancing factor because some people are not patient enough to stare at loading screens. I think that's absolutely ridiculous and a poor excuse for balancing factors. That's like saying in Call of Duty... Well tell you what. You can have a minigun, BUT, you must only spawn with 1 minute left because it should take longer for you to reach the battlefield cause you have a minigun. Or just properly balance it and make it have a spool up time and be innacurate. Much like you can properly balance the ships to fit the roles they were designed for. There is no jump a long way role.

This has very little to do with the 'loading screen' stuff if you ask me.
Space in Elite is enormous in terms of scale, it takes time to get from a to b, some ships are better at it and gets there faster, this isn't about making people wait, I can't imagine they have done it simply to make people wait, in my eyes they have done it because, well, space is big, and a combat ship in their eyes is not meant to get from a to b as easily as other ships.

Also your example is flawed, a lot of games punish heavy weapons with slower movement, often significantly so, so it would seem to support the same view as frontier has.

 

[Viking84]

What need is there to have huge variety in cargo space? I think it could have something to do with making ships feel unique.

You just skipped my entire question. I am not arguing against variation, cargo space (internal compartments) vs combat ability (hard points and heat management) are tactical choices. How bored you can tolerate becoming is not a tactical choice.

Edit: As I posted earlier, I am not arguing against ships being balanced, I am arguing against FSD range being used for balance because it is fundamentally different to all the other ship stats in that it ONLY relates to time spent honk-jumping, nothing else.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I will repeat the question for clarity:

For the FSD range balance fans - can you explain why you think this is a good mechanic? And I am not talking about the need to balance ships against each other, I am talking about using FSD range to do it.

- Why balance on an aspect that has zero tactical effect? (Besides the extreme fringe case of hyperjump chases that most commanders have never experienced)
- Why balance on an aspect that has such a dramatic impact on a players time usage?
- Why balance on an aspect that forces you to use one of the least developed mechanics in the game for a longer time (jumping from star to star requires only the barest minimum of input from the pilot, but still enough to not allow you to do something else at the same time)?

 

[Mohrgan]

You just skipped my entire question. I am not arguing against variation, cargo space (internal compartments) vs combat ability (hard points and heat management) are tactical choices. How bored you can tolerate becoming is not a tactical choice.

The obvious answer is that Tactical choices aren't the only choice you have to make. FSD's are a module in each ship. There are varying qualities of each sized FSD. That makes them part of the balance between ships. Making the player decide what is most important to them.

If I have the will to travel 200 ly's to a CG in an FdL, and you don;t then you show up in an Asp E, I will have an advantage over you in combat. (This is for discussion purposes only). That is a perfectly valid reason to have jump range be a factor in the balance between ships. That you don;t like it, doesn't mean it isn't valid.

 

[babelfisch]

You just skipped my entire question. I am not arguing against variation, cargo space (internal compartments) vs combat ability (hard points and heat management) are tactical choices. How bored you can tolerate becoming is not a tactical choice.

Edit: As I posted earlier, I am not arguing against ships being balanced, I am arguing against FSD range being used for balance because it is fundamentally different to all the other ship stats in that it ONLY relates to time spent honk-jumping, nothing else.

As said above, your problem should be addressed by ship transports. If you want to know why I support the idea of short range combat ships: I think they feel unique and add to the feeling of a very big galaxy.

 

[Eymerich]

No, we all worked out our time spent in game and realised that we can use that ship. If you do not have the time use a different ship.
This scales with everything else in the game Explore/trade/combat more = can afford bigger ships. The only true currency in Elite is time same as all MMO's. Skill reduces time required but time is still the deterministic factor for everything except PvP.

Similarly if you have more time you can take an FDL, if you do not have time you take an Asp/Anaconda or any other decent ship and possibly buy an FDL there.


Either way for current practical advice 2.1 drops on Thursday and has FSD boosting modifications. 30 jumps really isn't that much, it's about 40 minutes travelling even on a bad day. Considering you'd do that once per week for CG's it's no big deal at all. It just feels a lot to you because of either your experience in game (lack of exploring) or because of your lack of playtime in general where 40 minutes a week means a lot.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Care to expand or are you too shocked?

Actually I'm shocked, I read to page 2 and thought that was it, suddenly I realise there was a whole 9 pages to this thread

 

[Viking84]

As said above, your problem should be addressed by ship transports. If you want to know why I support the idea of short range combat ships: I think they feel unique and add to the feeling of a very big galaxy.

Ship transport does not solve my problem at all as I actually travel with cargo on board Fair opinion though, I don't quite see how a low FSD range adds any charm to a ship, but that is a matter of opinion of course!

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Ship transport does not solve my problem at all as I actually travel with cargo on board Fair opinion though, I don't quite see how a low FSD range adds any charm to a ship, but that is a matter of opinion of course!

Doesn't add charm to that ship but it makes other ships by relation charming

Basically there has to be a low point for high points to mean something. If the lowest ship had a 50Ly jump range and the Anaconda had a 100Ly then 90% of the players wouldn't give a rats-tail what ship they picked, only tourists/explorers would care. Range would be that much of a non-factor and they may as well generalise so all ships have exactly XLy range at which point they are all the same.

In 2.1 you can soup a fully combat fitted Corvette (with armour) to above 15Ly iirc.

 

[Mohrgan]

Ship transport does not solve my problem at all as I actually travel with cargo on board Fair opinion though, I don't quite see how a low FSD range adds any charm to a ship, but that is a matter of opinion of course!

Cargo? On an FdL? That seem right? Limpet ammo can be bought nearly anywhere. What cargo, besides collector limpets for pirating would a combat ship be carrying? If it's not a combat ship, then you really have no issue with dramatically low FSD Range.

 

[JuicerPrime]

The ship generally seen as the best current combat ship, only disadvantage being it can't carry that much cargo or jump that far?
Yeah, that seems fairly well balanced, sure you may take a bit getting from a to b, but once you are there for the combat there you are going to do much better then those not in an fdl?

Current disadvantages to the FdL - low customizability, low jump range, tiny fuel tank requiring use of limited slots to compensate with fuel scoop or spare tank, role-locked into combat and unable to progress at a reasonable pace in either trading or exploration, unlike the Python which is a much more efficient long-term investment. The weight of drawbacks the game puts on combat ships never ceases to puzzle me.

Also, there are many ways to balance ships. Jump range is one of the least important, as it literally only limits time and exploration potential.

 

[Dr Zarkov]

Ahem.

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/4aChR3w.png

Darn, Baggins... you have big bongos.

 

[babelfisch]

Ship transport does not solve my problem at all as I actually travel with cargo on board Fair opinion though, I don't quite see how a low FSD range adds any charm to a ship, but that is a matter of opinion of course!

Have some rep for respecting other peoples opinions, doesn't happen often on forums

On the charm part, I think Alex Brentnall is spot on.

 

[Viking84]

Range would be that much of a non-factor and they may as well generalise so all ships have exactly XLy range at which point they are all the same.

If range is the only thing that differentiates the ships in Elite then they have done a horrible job with the ship design. But thankfully it isn't, there are literally dozens of stats that change from ship to ship. Why choose one with ZERO tactical relevance to use for balance?

Cargo? On an FdL? That seem right? Limpet ammo can be bought nearly anywhere. What cargo, besides collector limpets for pirating would a combat ship be carrying? If it's not a combat ship, then you really have no issue with dramatically low FSD Range.

I am not talking about combat ships I am talking about the large discrepancy between the Asp/Conda and basically any other multi purpose ship. I cannot bare to use my Clipper for mission running that requires any travel because I know I am spending 50-100% more time honk-jumping depending on how lucky I am with the routing.

So in effect FDev have limited people like me (who don't like honk jumping, but do like high income missions) to using one ship. Everything after an Asp Explorer is a downgrade because it forces me to spend more time honk-jumping and less time doing what I enjoy.

I could just stay in one place I suppose, but that rather goes against the whole point of having such a large area to explore.

 

[babelfisch]

Current disadvantages to the FdL - low customizability, low jump range, tiny fuel tank requiring use of limited slots to compensate with fuel scoop or spare tank, role-locked into combat and unable to progress at a reasonable pace in either trading or exploration, unlike the Python which is a much more efficient long-term investment. The weight of drawbacks the game puts on combat ships never ceases to puzzle me.

Also, there are many ways to balance ships. Jump range is one of the least important, as it literally only limits time and exploration potential.

Yet the FDL is one of the most used ships in game. So does it need even less jump range?

 

[Viking84]

Have some rep for respecting other peoples opinions, doesn't happen often on forums

On the charm part, I think Alex Brentnall is spot on.

Everybodys taste is different I just get a bit riled up when something is defended not for what it is, but simply because it is the current state of the game. Comments along the lines of "you can work around it" or "just fly something else" or "40 minutes isn't that long" are all just observations of the status quo, not arguments for whether or not the status quo is how it should be. At least you had a reason for why you like it!

 

[Alex Brentnall]

If range is the only thing that differentiates the ships in Elite then they have done a horrible job with the ship design. But thankfully it isn't, there are literally dozens of stats that change from ship to ship. Why choose one with ZERO tactical relevance to use for balance?

I find it adds character to ships. FDL is a bad example but for example it differentiates battleships from cruisers and long range hunting ships from short range defence vessels.

Elite doesn't categorise it quite that way but I have my FDL defence ship that I use in 1 or 2 systems and then my lighter and longer range ship like the Clipper that I use for flying around hunting specific targets and doing CG's.
I have my long range cargo hauling Anaconda and my shorter range T9 for the point-point local trading, sometimes within 1 system.

Yes all ships are unique but if dedicated fighters were better in every way for combat and travel than multi-role ships then they'd be obsolete for any form of combat. The main reason people use Anacondas and Pythons and Clippers instead of Vulture/Cutter/FDL is the range.

 

[Viking84]

Doesn't add charm to that ship but it makes other ships by relation charming

An interesting viewpoint I understand what you are saying, but using a players time in that manner does not make for good game play. I have no issue with the Cutters pitch rate or drift for example, and I have no issue with the T9 being rather slow, as both are relevant stats to change how a ship feels But making a ship drain my play time through frame shift jumping doesn't add anything, it just subtracts, as it is only felt through added jumps to a destination (in my opinion).

 

[Mohrgan]

I may not enjoy each and every jump I have to make, but I do enjoy the factors you have to consider when choosing what ship to fly. The more factors the better if you ask me. Look at how just the few Commanders involved here have mentioned how integral to their decisions the FSD Range of a given ship is. The fact that FSD Range has this kind of effect on ship choice, to me, just goes to validate the decision.

 

[ROSS-128]

Actually there is a "jump a long way" role: exploration. It's also a secondary factor in trading, right behind cargo space.

And if you think the FDL's jump range is bad, you should try the Vulture. Make sure you include a fuel scoop and have the fuel rats on speed-dial in case you hit a chain of dead stars.

Edit: (for clarity, the point here is that a good explorer or good trader is not necessarily a good combat ship, and vice versa. Generally it goes jump range, cargo space, firepower, handling: pick two)

Big ships carrying smaller ships could definitely open up some interesting options, especially if there was a way to "park" the big ship similar to the parking mechanism for landing on planets (the big ship kind of stops existing until you go back for it). You could use a big ship with lots of fuel to transport smaller, more fuel-starved ships, or you could use the small ship to dock at places that don't have large landing pads, allowing your big ship to claim bounties, turn in vouchers, and run missions (in a roundabout way) at outposts.

I do kind of wish there was an "explorer's model" of the Federal Corvette though. Have it be stripped-down to be a bit less killy (fewer hardpoints, smaller powerplant and distributor, a little less internal space) in exchange for a lighter hull and bigger FSD. Name it after Magellan or some other famous explorer. Plus it'd be an excuse to have two models of Federal Corvette in the game, kind of like how the FAS and FGS are FDS variants. Granted, there's the Anaconda, but the Anaconda isn't a Federal ship, doesn't have that beautifully boxy Federal look, and is *technically* a multirole ship with a lean towards trading, its ability to explore is just a side-effect of its trading stats.

 

[Viking84]

Look at how just the few Commanders involved here have mentioned how integral to their decisions the FSD Range of a given ship is. The fact that FSD Range has this kind of effect on ship choice just goes to validate the decision.

Now this I totally disagree with. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, just because something forces players to choose certain ships over others doesn't make it the right choice to achieve that goal. You could use menu lag to balance ships. You could decrease the speed of the landing gear massively. You could make a Corvette produce a weird squeak every time you applied any yaw. All things that would prevent many people using various ships, but not a single good idea from a game play perspective. For me FSD ranges with such a large difference as we currently see fall into that category of being annoying for the sake of it.

If the goal is to ensure variety in ships, then make sure we have enough varied things to do with them, and make sure they have sufficient variation in stats to make us compromise on one aspect versus another. But don't make me compromise on my time in the game which is essentially what increased time spent honk-jumping does.

Edit: As a compromise I will say that this issue would not be so bad if there where more ships to choose from which had Asp-level jump ranges. What makes it so unbearable at the moment is the large drop from an Asp to basically anything else once you give it a good multipurpose fit, meaning that if you do choose to prioritise jump range you are stuck with only that one ship for use on outposts.