Thank You Frontier for Fixing Black Hole Lensing, For Science!

I see, but moving your head wouldn't that make slightly different light that has been bent around the black hole reach your eyes?, maybe the effect currently just needs to be toned down?

That was my thought, but after reading some of the linked articles, I guess the observation is correct and small movements of inches should not really move the picture of the gravitational lense noticably.
If the black hole was very small - maybe pea sized (the gravitational singularity -if there's such a thing according to Hawking :) - would be much smaller -mathematically singular-, but the event horizon -or "firewall"- would still be rather large) - and you would be very close - few meters, then yes, but not with the scale we have.
Maybe the postprocessing effect is programmed too "static" based on the pixelgrid of the display rather than the space grid you're moving in.
 
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I was never too good with optics and it is some decades since I last studied Physics but that was a nice simple explanation for even me to follow. It would be great to get better BH effects in game and give them some teeth. I was a bit dissapointed when I visited the one in Maia recently and didn't have the psychedelic experience my childhood told me to expect. ;)

(and yes I know that's totally unrealistic but I loved the film)
 
Maybe they ought to go ask the developer of Space Engine how to animate black holes.

And perhaps in exchange they could tell him how to create a game and how to render planets that don't look like something I threw together in Terragen 0.9x whilst in the middle of a crack binge. *

Or maybe we could both accept that they are two entirely different products that serve different purposes and that both of them work within limitations which are imposed on them by that.

As for this game, I suspect it is simply one of those decisions where a bit of whizz-bang flashy gamey stuff was chosen over a more scientifically accurate yet less visually dynamic implementation.


* I know he isn't trying to create a game and I'm sure he's perfectly capable of rendering planets with far more detail and accuracy if he chose to. I'm not criticising him at all, he's making a very impressive product, just pointing out that you're not really comparing like with like.
 
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As for this game, I suspect it is simply one of those decisions where a bit of whizz-bang flashy gamey stuff was chosen over a more scientifically accurate yet less visually dynamic implementation.

In general, Frontier has opted for the most flashy version of scientifically accurate as possible. But in this case, the seasick head-mounted lensing effect detracts from the beauty of the game. So it is as unrealistic as it is ugly and nauseating.

There is no benefit to it, so it is either a technical challenge or an oversight. In either case, Frontier should do whatever they can to address it so that black holes can get a little dignity back. If they aren't going to be deadly, then they should at least look bigger than a beach ball.
 
* I know he isn't trying to create a game and I'm sure he's perfectly capable of rendering planets with far more detail and accuracy if he chose to. I'm not criticising him at all, he's making a very impressive product, just pointing out that you're not really comparing like with like.

Both are trying to simulate an accurate model of our cosmos. Space Engine does it in larger scale.

That's alike enough for me.

His black holes look better, his stars look more accurate, and there is a much greater variety among planet types. If you find the graphical fidelity lacking, maybe your last look into Space Engine has not been a very recent one, or you have never seen how much better than ED it can look with certain mods.

Even with the graphical overhaul of 2.1 ED won't become half as interesting to explore as Space Engine.

But that's a question of tastes, and they are known to differ, which makes no sense arguing about it.
 
And perhaps in exchange they could tell him how to create a game and how to render planets that don't look like something I threw together in Terragen 0.9x whilst in the middle of a crack binge. *

Planetary surfaces in SE actually look better than anything we've seen in ED - yet. But yeah, for max details in SE you need monster PC and even then you'll have to wait some time for render. Obviously, twitch multiplayer game like ED can not afford this luxury; assuming that the Frontier's engine can be pushed that far (which I doubt, tbh).
 
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I see, but moving your head wouldn't that make slightly different light that has been bent around the black hole reach your eyes?, maybe the effect currently just needs to be toned down?

We are very small compared to the curvature of space, even around a black hole.

Unless you are being spaghettified by tidal gravity, the curvature of space will be far too gradual for turning your head to result in light from the same star hitting your eye from a different spot in the sky. And even with enough differential gravity to rip you apart, the difference in the light paths would be extremely subtle. And since you'd be dying a horrible death at that moment, you probably wouldn't even notice.
 
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And since you'd be dying a horrible death at that moment, you probably wouldn't even notice.

That is something I've read many times about, but don't entirely understand. Sure, you're being stretched out into something that is millions of Km long by a few inches wide, but isn't spacetime immediately around you doing exactly the same? Relative to my spacesuit and helmet, my dimensions haven't changed that much. I would expect death from falling into a black hole to consist of asphyxiation when my life support gives out, not from having all the particles I'm made of pulled apart.
 
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No that isn't correct. It isn't just a case of two parts of you laying on two different locations in space time (or infinite points of you on infinite locations) if that was the case then you would be correct. The problem is that at those different points your are subjected to different levels of gravitational force, that difference in force applied to your molecules it what rips you apart at the subatomic level.

Imagine space time on a graph against gravitational force. Near a body of mass (say a planet) you will get a curve that steepens from the limit of its gravity's influence all the way in as it approaches the centre of the mass. Because the mass is physically huge the gravity well is gentle and shallow and you being very small don't physically cover much of the graph and as such the difference in applied force on you is extremely similar for all parts of your body. Now translate that to a black hole where that slope is now concentrated into a much smaller area, now as you get to the event horizon the slope is incredibly steep and as you pass over that limit the difference in gravitational force applied to the different parts of your body is no longer negligible and they will begin to get pulled into the singularity at different rates. As this occurs your molecules will be dissassociated from each other and stretched out into the black hole. You are not just laid over the fabric of spacetime its the 'difference in gravitational force' at those points that does the the damage.
 
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In general, Frontier has opted for the most flashy version of scientifically accurate as possible. But in this case, the seasick head-mounted lensing effect detracts from the beauty of the game. So it is as unrealistic as it is ugly and nauseating.

There is no benefit to it, so it is either a technical challenge or an oversight. In either case, Frontier should do whatever they can to address it so that black holes can get a little dignity back. If they aren't going to be deadly, then they should at least look bigger than a beach ball.

From my (I admit rather limited) experience in how games draw this kind of stuff, I'd hazard to guess it's a technical limitation, or rather technical limitations:

The galaxy skymap that is drawn when you enter a local instance is not a collection of light sources, but a canvas that moves with our point of view: Long distance super cruise flights have proven that you don't get closer to other star systems in any meaningful sense. The lensing effect is applied onto that canvas from our point of view, not the other way around. There is no incoming light the game engine could render; that kind of 'seeing' in a computer game is an active looking at things, not a passive perception of light like in reality. (Leaving aside all the interpretation that goes around in our brains for the sake of simplicity.) Option A - that optical voodoo - is often what happens because unlike reality, our point of view is the only thing that is there in any meaningful sense.

Not to compare apples with oranges, but a skymap in Half-Life 2, for example, is never further away than 512 feet, but it doesn't come closer either, it just vanishes when you noclip through it. You could have a sun up there casting light that appeared to be parallel, but as soon as there would be any distortion effects, the light used for calculating them would be emitted from a rather close distance. (It leads to effects not unlike what we see around a black hole.) And maybe the huge ship isn't that far off from what happens as well. Back in Half-Life 2 again, you could have three-dimensional skymaps by scaling objects down, hiding them somewhere on the map, and telling the renderer to treat them as larger objects in the background. It was a cheap trick to make maps appear bigger than they were.

In a game on the scale of Elite Dangerous, there are probably a lot of these tricks used to overcome the distances involved. In reality, we might be very small compared to the curvature of space. In the game, we only appear to be, and in cases like black holes, the voodoo involved probably meets its limitations.

That's all speculation and guesswork, and I agree that it doesn't look right, and that it should be changed. But the process of creating game world visuals is centered around us, not around our knowledge of the physical universe. It rather resembles old beliefs on how vision works, or how the universe is structured. There really are spheres in the sky you can push your head through in a game world.

mn006336_w401.jpg
 
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No that isn't correct. It isn't just a case of two parts of you laying on two different locations in space time (or infinite points of you on infinite locations) if that was the case then you would be correct. The problem is that att those different points your are subjected to different levels of gravitational force, that difference in force applied to your molecules it what rips you apart at the subatomic level.

Imagine space time on a graph against gravitaional force. Near a body of mass (say a planet) you will get a curve that steepens from the limit of its gravity's influence all the way in as it approaches the centre of the mass. Because the mass is physically huge the gravity well is gentle and shallow and you being very small don't physically cover much of the graph and as such the difference in applied force on you is extremely similar for all parts of your body. Now translate that to a black hole where that slope is now concentrated into a much smaller area, now as you get to the event horizon the slope is incredibly steep and as you pass over that limit the difference in gravitational force applied to the different parts of your body is no longer negligible and they will begin to get pulled into the singularity as different rates. As this occurs your molecules will be dissassociated from each other and stretched out into the black hole. You are not just laid over the fabric of spacetime its the 'difference in gravitational force' at those points that does the the damage.

Yes, but because of time dilation it will feel to me like the process of falling in takes thousands or may be millions of years. To an outside observer I would fall in very rapidly (probably at a large fraction of c because of the incredible acceleration), but to me time would seem to go slower and slower the closer I got to the event horizon. So by the time I'm close enough that there is a measurable difference in gravity between points just millimeters apart, I'd be just a fossil.
 
Light cannot pass through a black hole's event horizon, so a black hole isn't transparent. If you were close enough to see the black hole in front if a star and not be completely blinded by the companion star, then the star should look like a ring, not a sphere.
i didn't say its transparent i said you cant directly detect one with is bang on on current theory you can only see its effects on other matter around it
 
The galaxy skymap that is drawn when you enter a local instance is not a collection of light sources, but a canvas that moves with our point of view: Long distance super cruise flights have proven that you don't get closer to other star systems in any meaningful sense. The lensing effect is applied onto that canvas from our point of view, not the other way around. There is no incoming light the game engine could render

Probably the most logical explanation. We already know that the distant stars and nebulas are being rendered during the hyperspace jump cut-scene, and that it's "just" a background texture (and pretty low res, which is often badly masked with blur), so what you said makes sense to me.

Generally speaking, Cobra engine does seem to have problem with light sources. That's the reason why, for example, celestial bodies do not cast shadows - you won't see moon covered in darkness 'behind' the planet in ED, nor the shadow of the asteroid rings projected onto the nearby planet. Etc.
 
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That is something I've read many times about, but don't entirely understand. Sure, you're being stretched out into something that is millions of Km long by a few inches wide, but isn't spacetime immediately around you doing exactly the same? Relative to my spacesuit and helmet, my dimensions haven't changed that much. I would expect death from falling into a black hole to consist of asphyxiation when my life support gives out, not from having all the particles I'm made of pulled apart.

Ring systems are basically planets that were torn apart by a similar space time curvature differential. So yes it's a very real force, not an imaginary one. The difference is that when you get very close to the center of an infinitely dense object, the gravity differences can be large over very small distances. For small black holes this happens just above the event horizon. For supermassive black holes, this doesn't happen until you are well inside the event horizon.

Yes, but because of time dilation it will feel to me like the process of falling in takes thousands or may be millions of years. To an outside observer I would fall in very rapidly (probably at a large fraction of c because of the incredible acceleration), but to me time would seem to go slower and slower the closer I got to the event horizon. So by the time I'm close enough that there is a measurable difference in gravity between points just millimeters apart, I'd be just a fossil.

Quite the opposite. To an outside observer, you would look like a bug trapped in amber falling slower and slower. But from your perspective you would fall in rather quickly at normal rate of 1 second per second. If you look directly up, you'd see the rest of the future of the universe playing out at tremendously accelerated rate. You might even catch the very end of everything if you're "lucky".
 
Yes, but because of time dilation it will feel to me like the process of falling in takes thousands or may be millions of years. To an outside observer I would fall in very rapidly (probably at a large fraction of c because of the incredible acceleration), but to me time would seem to go slower and slower the closer I got to the event horizon. So by the time I'm close enough that there is a measurable difference in gravity between points just millimeters apart, I'd be just a fossil.

No it will be just the opposite. Time dilation doesn't work like that. Time for you will be relative to you and you alone and will proceed from your perspective at a normal pace and you will experience a nasty death. The time dilation is observed by us, not trapped in the blackhole, and you will look to us to have frozen there in time on the brink of death as the whole of your future light cone is tilted entirely into the black hole.
 
Thank you Frontier!!!!


You fixed the black Hole lensing effect!!! At least on smaller black holes (tested on Maia B). The background stars no longer swim around when you turn your head, but only when you move your ship :D :D :D


Thank you so much. Your commitment to scientific accuracy is now fully unquestioned in my book. The background colors still swim around with head turns, but I can live with that!


THANK YOU. [heart] THANK YOU. [heart] THANK YOU. [heart]
 
Can a mod please change the Title of this Thread to "Thank You Frontier for Fixing Black Hole Lensing, For Science!"
 
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Thank you Frontier!!!!


You fixed the black Hole lensing effect!!! At least on smaller black holes (tested on Maia B). The background stars no longer swim around when you turn your head, but only when you move your ship :D :D :D


Thank you so much. Your commitment to scientific accuracy is now fully unquestioned in my book. The background colors still swim around with head turns, but I can live with that!


THANK YOU. [heart] THANK YOU. [heart] THANK YOU. [heart]


Nice :D Gotta love it when they pay attention to the little things :D
 
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