Discuss the AI here!

[Muetdhiver]

Some of the seeming bugs involve excessive interdictions and being unable to escape death by any means. So, you're wrong there.

Seems to me somone did not read VJ post well enough. He explicitly talks about not including the OP weapons bugs in his discussion. As they are, you know, bugs. That will get fixed.

And maybe you find jousting and turning battles unfun, but so do I find shooting fish in a barrel battles. (Then again, you can go to LowRes and shoot fish in barrel if that's your thing)

 

[Finnster]

Haven't voted on this, really not sure what to make of this situation at the moment. Spent the weekend adjusting to 2.1, especially the new NPCs...

Now, on the whole I like the way the NPCs fly (especially like the surface/'air' combat on planets/moons - finally). But my biggest bugbear is the damage output of these NPCs, specifically when combined with the frequency of interdictions; which wasn't helped by the combatant's combat rank... 90% of the NPCs encountered were ranked Master and above (my own rank is Master) and their damage output, and also in a lot of cases their shield resilience, was staggering (one Diamondback seemed to have invulnerable shields and a Deathstar laser). Don't mind the better pilots being that good, but should be rarer

I don't mind a challenge, and the aforementioned resilience meant for some potentially great dogfights, if you could just survive their damage output...

As many have mentioned this could be likely down to NPCs having 'modded' ships, which brings me to what I think a fundamental issue is with this update: FD have introduced advanced pilots at the higher combat ranks at the same time that they have introduced upgraded gear (which the NPCs seem to automatically have acquired) - This has introduced a kind of 'arms race' between players and NPCs which the latter have a massive head start on as they don't have to grind for materials...

If FD had introduced The Engineers before the new NPCs, players would have a little time to buff their own ships and be on par with NPCs, if FD had introduced new NPCs first then players would have got a taste of the new skilled pilots before the introduction of mods and could then judge their new ability without prejudice of modded ships skewing the experience...

The inclusion of both mods + advanced NPCs has suddenly introduced a massive learning curve into the game that people just weren't ready for.

That's my shiny tuppence, anyway. Will have to wait and see (and practice!)

 

[Queex]

Seems to me somone did not read VJ post well enough. He explicitly talks about not including the OP weapons bugs in his discussion. As they are, you know bugs. That will get fixed.

And yet, he was dismissing complaints related to those bugs in that post. 'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is simply not true at the moment, hence why some people are sitting in dock waiting for a patch.

 

[phleabas]

I for one was dismayed at the effort needed for engineers mods yet npc`s have them in abundance.Surely a scaling back of npc ships that have the mods is all thats needed

 

[Boomer Kay]

'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is simply not true at the moment, hence why some people are sitting in dock waiting for a patch.

How to avoid mission related interdictions:

- accept mission (don't stack them!)
- jump to target system
- see pirate/authority announce their intention to interdict you ("all that tasty cargo")
- Open "contacts"
- Select the NAMED npc who just announced he's after you
- fly into the star's corona, as far as your ship can make it (if your ship can't handle heat well, get a DBX)
- turn your butt to the sun
- make double and triple sure the big blazing ball on your eight is centered and there's no space for someone to get behind you
- watch murder hobo NPC circle you and/or drop into a white dot -low wake signal-
- resume your journey

-----
How to avoid random interdictions:

- once you arrive, check for any spawned interdictions by going to the contacts tab (they'll come after you, so trying to get away like that might not work)
- check where the "system plane" is (plane where most planets circle the sun)
- from your drop in point, head almost 90° down (or up) from the system plane and any traffic routes for a few ls
- take a gentle swoop up (or down) to your target destination, aiming for the gap between the station and the planet it's orbiting
- once the gravitational well slows you down, pull towards the station, trying to get as much of the planet as possible at your eight
- drop out and watch for instantly spawning contacts and/or comms .. in that case, boost to the station entrance, while striking hooks like a rabbit

 

[space3k]

Can't wait to take my new found combat skills into real life, do you think it will look good on my resume?

Hahaha, good one!! seriously, I wanted to reply to that with "send that pic to the kids who killed some folks after playing too much GTA" but then I thought why bother instead I clicked "ignore", your reply is much better!

 

[Vorxian]

I for one was dismayed at the effort needed for engineers mods yet npc`s have them in abundance.Surely a scaling back of npc ships that have the mods is all thats needed

Yeah this is just reasonable common sense. The mods should be limited to NAMED mission specific targets, not just everyone

But AI is a little over tuned, heard crazy stories of Anaconda's out maneuvering imperial eagles..

oh well.

 

[SYN_Ricky]

But my biggest bugbear is the damage output of these NPCs, specifically when combined with the frequency of interdictions; which wasn't helped by the combatant's combat rank... 90% of the NPCs encountered were ranked Master and above (my own rank is Master) and their damage output, and also in a lot of cases their shield resilience, was staggering (one Diamondback seemed to have invulnerable shields and a Deathstar laser). Don't mind the better pilots being that good, but should be rarer

I don't mind a challenge, and the aforementioned resilience meant for some potentially great dogfights, if you could just survive their damage output...

I have the same experience so far, I dn't really feel outflied by the new AI, but totally outgunned and outshielded (did I coin this term?). It seems I can't win a fight of damage attrition against much smaller targets, I wish I could have done that too to Pythons when I was flying a Sidewinder, an Eagle or an Adder...

 

[Muetdhiver]

Or maybe have a number of exagons near the ship model (e.g. Anaconda ooo) to reflect how moded it is (so you know what to expect).

the o's being exagons. It would make things clear and allow you to decide wether to engage or not knowingly.

 

[Queex]

- accept mission (don't stack them!)
- jump to target system
- see pirate/authority announce their intention to interdict you ("all that tasty cargo")
- Open "contacts"
- Select the NAMED npc who just announced he's after you
- fly into the star's corona, as far as your ship can make it (if your ship can't handle heat well, get a DBX)
- turn your butt to the sun
- make double and triple sure the big blazing ball on your eight is centered and there's no space for someone to get behind you
- watch murder hobo NPC circle you and/or drop into a white dot -low wake signal-
- resume your journey

Here's what actually happens:

- carry your usual cargo, no mission
- jump to target system
- start SCing to station
- see pirate announce their intention to interdict you
- either submit or fail to avoid interdiction. You can't use the star because it's ls behind you.
- if it happens to be a bugged NPC group, die without any chance of fighting or running.

'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is not true at the moment. you might get away without encountering the assumed bugs on any given run, but it's crapshoot. The non-bugged encounters are perfectly fine. If the turning rates and numbers of interdictions are by design rather than bugs, then they need revision, but that's the kind of usual post-patch revision rather than the critical PA-spam 'patch it now now now' bug.

 

[Hexen]

I would say that expecting less-able players to struggle unreasonably simply so you can feel thrilled (which, thanks to that old chesnut the hedonic treadmill, probably wont last overlong) is a more entitled attitude than simply wanting to enjoy a game as part of the non-hardcore masochist set.

Please don't choke on it. Would pain me to think if you do with such positive attitude and all But that aside I don't think your comment is fair. Game should make player relate, it should not be mindless grind. Why? Because grind promote horrible consumer values and damage industry in general. But that's noting in comparison to the fact that it makes us lesser men. Adhering to menial tasks for a dose of gratification is really messed up. Neither Frontier nor ED should promote that. For the sake of everything sane.

It's not just me being thrilled. Combat is thrilling, it is dangerous and it wasn't been like that before. AI behaving more life-like and it's a good thing because it's there not just to be a meaningless experience. I.e. grind. It's not just stepping up difficulty here, it's Frontier changing it's approach to a gaming experience. I saw it before and it was more grind in regard of AI tweaks. They learned from their mistakes. It took time. A lot of it. But right now AI actually made it. Frontier made it.

Masochist you say? I say less grind, more fun. Play in a team, play with people. Get out of that shell, ditch that obnoxious grind and that consumer gratification urge. There is so much more about ED that people have no idea about yet! You can run your own missions, you can change political landscape, you can change borders, affect powers and so much much more! For your own sake stop complaining and look around It's far from being perfect but it's brilliant non the less. And many of us change that tor menial grind and have no chance to see anything beyond that.

Unreasonable struggles of less-able players. Right. Why we have it in the first place? Think about it. Because they like playing alone, they don't need any help or advice? Or they would gladly play with other people instead? Stupid AI, trucking grind, dull gameplay. That's the root of it. Which Frontier finally decided to do something about. Game is not about how much credits you have or how many NPC's you killed. It's about fun. And now there's an obvious incentive to play in a team. Which is usually much more fun than playing alone.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

So has there been any confirmation yet from FD that these things are indeed bugs? I know it was a long weekend, again, a bad move to drop an update this big right before taking several days off, but has there been any response at all?

 

[Cosmos]

Wow... what a lot to read!
The answer to the poll (in my eyes) is yes to all. Can it be changed to please everyone? Perhaps...

"It's too easy!"

Moving forward, it won't be. High ranks will use adaptive logic. Means the harder you fight, the harder the AI fights. Should hopefully mean a good challenge for skilled players.

"It's just right."

Perhaps, but I want to take it down a notch and throw in more tactics to create a more enjoyable and less predictable experience.

"It's too hard!"

I hear ya... Adaptive logic could dynamically downgrade AI performance to give players a chance. E.g. player is fleeing... Pirate AI could downgrade its weapon accuracy and boosting ability, giving the player a good chance to escape.

Well, just some of my thoughts.

I was fighting some ships today.. Sneaky NPCs were flying backwards staying out of my range. Nice touch

I think its just right. For once I am having to make some choices and run at times (not in my most leet ship). I like the increased jeopardy, the game feels like I thought it always should have. Risk vs Rewards and all that.. Go to places that aren't safe and be rewarded if you can overcome the challenges.

 

[Boomer Kay]

- see pirate announce their intention to interdict you

Select closest star, high wake out and "reset the instance".
Rinse and repeat.

 

[Queex]

Select closest star, high wake out and "reset the instance".
Rinse and repeat.

And when it happens the next time?

And let's not forget that what you're suggesting is actually exploiting the limitations of the game engine rather than a a legit tactic, on a par with quitting out to the menu.

Let me revise, then: 'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is not true at the moment, unless you know about and are prepared to use exploits.

 

[Para Handy]

They are casuals. They don't want to think, to adapt, to fix their tactics. They want to have button - win. The don't want to win actually. Only to press button for it. So lazy players..

You have been making some really obnoxious generalisations, denigrating people who have had different experiences from you. Please stop being such a troll.

(P.S. Yes the better AI is welcome, no the overpowered weapons / bugs are not, neither is the insane amount of interdictions and scaling of NPC opponents some people have been suffering. )

(P.P.S. No I have not had an insurance screen since 2.1 went live.)

 

[Boomer Kay]

And when it happens the next time?

And let's not forget that what you're suggesting is actually exploiting the limitations of the game engine rather than a a legit tactic, on a par with quitting out to the menu.

Let me revise, then: 'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is not true at the moment, unless you know about and are prepared to use exploits.

It's not an exploit, it's limitations of the game engine. There is no persistence - Mission NPCs get spawned for you tied to the missions, random NPCs get spawned randomly.
Use it or not.
"Play your own way" -> "don't like this instance, get a new one"
Are we talking Game mechanics here or how to avoid getting mugged at 4am in downtown Newcastle?

 

[Queex]

It's not an exploit, it's limitations of the game engine.

I think you're unclear on what the definition of 'exploit' is. Making use of the limitations of the game engine for gain is exploiting the limitations of the game engine for gain.

It's certainly not an approach that someone would think of within the game fiction, as the game fiction does not include instancing.

'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is not true at the moment, unless you know about and are prepared to use exploits.

 

[vindicator jones]

And yet, he was dismissing complaints related to those bugs in that post. 'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is simply not true at the moment, hence why some people are sitting in dock waiting for a patch.

I am not dismissing anything.. Bugs are exactly that.. BUGS.. meaning they are a known problem that are going to be fixed.. Bugs are a non issue to me, and if you have lost a ship due to a bug, then contact frontier, and I am certain they will refund any credits you lost.

I am ONLY talking about the level of AI combat, their tactics, their maneuverability, their aggression... People are saying NERF THE AI.. when the AI isn't the problem.. The Bugs and peoples expectations are. Frontier will fix the bugs, its up to the community to adjust their expectations and the way they interact with the AI..

 

[Boomer Kay]

I think you're unclear on what the definition of 'exploit' is. Making use of the limitations of the game engine for gain is exploiting the limitations of the game engine for gain.

It's certainly not an approach that someone would think of within the game fiction, as the game fiction does not include instancing.

'Everyone still has the choice whether to engage or not' is not true at the moment, unless you know about and are prepared to use exploits.

bla bla bla and purple deathrays of doom are part of the lore bla.

You can also use any of the other methods I described.
But those require practice and contain an element of risk to fail. Not what some people want, so go ahead and cheese it.

And.. FD could change the non-persistance to persistance and spawn each and every NPC specifically to your account I guess, creating your own entourage of murder hobos trying to hunt you down. They decided not so, so the level of NPC interaction is left up to your choice.
Anarchy systems are likely to still spawn 9/10 interdiction upon entry.