FDev, please show a bit more respect for your players time.

Personally, I dont have a problem with the Building RNG. So you dont get the best, so what ? Lvl 5 is still better than a Lvl 1, even on a bad role.
However, after you have struggled through 1 bad layer of RNG, I can see how people currently really do not appreciate facing yet another. Pity they seem to be looking at fixing the later RNG Level rather than the earlier.
 
The devs have introduced a system that will take weeks for the average player to even come close to maxing their ship out with unique and interesting configurations, and possibly months for the more hardcore players to outfit their fleet.

All the people on this thread complaining about the process, be it the RNG or the material gathering in the first place, are throwing a fit....because they couldn't fully level their ships over the weekend. This is an attitude that seems to run contrary to the well established spirit of ED--if you want the biggest and best, it's going to take a bit of time.

Honestly, between this topic and all of the soul wrenching anguish over the new NPC's, I think we're doomed if hostile aliens ever show up.

For me, aside from a few balance passes, I'd say Fdev knocked this one out of the park. My experience over the weekend exploring all the new content was simply incredible...even though I didn't fully mod my ship.

I think may be a fair statement on a few members, but I certainly don't think I'm ignorant to the process. I'm at ~2,132 hours (so I get it) and I don't care for the current RNG. Opinion :D

I made another post on this thread that is also, just my opinion. This has turned out to be an immensely polarizing topic (lol).
 
Agree with the original poster.

Came into engineers with renewed enthusiasm. Not really bothered with planetary landings up until now but it got me driving around on planets looking for resources. Spent a good few hours figuring stuff out, making contact with engineer, finding out what materials I needed and where to get them.

After about 15 hours I had gathered enough for a couple of roles on a FSD drive upgrade. 3 roles and the best I got was a 1% range increase and a load of penalty's, felt like a real let down for so many hours work. 15 hours seems way too long for access to level one upgrades when the benefits are so minor.
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
Yeah it is hardly a waste of time. Getting my Corvette from a 11 LY jump range to roughly 18 LY jump range is going to SAVE ME TIME in the long run. Better weapons are going to allow me to kill things faster. Better shields are going to mean I can stay in the fight longer and maximize my time spent in combat down the road. I can go on but the RNG values are in a pretty small variance. You can generally expect to get a decent roll out of the beta 5 changes.

This post made me curious to ask what every thinks the Engineers added to the game play? It seems to me that it's all a waste of time to essentially grind to make your ships that are all the same again.....the same again. Maybe in 6 months they'll add more buffs you can grind for.

What gets me is "the vision" - what exactly is it? Because looking at this hodge-podge of ideas isn't exactly "visionary" and once again, just like with CQC and PP why didn't they spend the time and money making the missions work better (They're still bugged after 2.1???? Seriously????) and add more depth to them. Is this vision to make the most grindy game ever in history? I don't think there is actually a vision here, sadly.

So once you have better shields and weapons and I have better shields and weapons and everyone else has better shields and weapons, how is that any different from going back to the time before the Engineers were introduced - they make themselves redundant in a month or two or six, depending on how much time you have. Then what?
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
They intended it to be upgrade-as-you go system, not upgrade path or shop. Read their last week's newsletter...they specifically wrote one sentence that it is NOT, I repeat it is NOT upgrade shop.

Idea is you collect materials as you cruise around galaxy. Kill a ship pinjata style - get hardware materials. Do a surface run with SRV - collect some rocks. Then time after time you drop to your trusty Engie and show what you have, she/he tells what he can offer to you.

There's huge misunderstanding and obviously NPC ships flying around in absurdly OP kits doesn't help - it is obviously a bug as for example SJA just last week explained it to me that ships with Engie mods will be tuned down considerably. No, it is not MANDATORY to have Engineer upgrades.

LMAO so it's the players fault they're doing it all wrong!!

Guys?? Guys???? did you hear that? You're not meant to blaze your own trail the way you're doing it so please stop it now.

On what planet do they make games where offering a mod option isn't going to have players rushing to get the best for their ship? This was blatantly the way people were going to do it and to say that people need to play the game a set way is just staggering.

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This game is littered with examples of things not turning out the way FD intended because the player base wants something entirely different, and the game is richer for it. If the majority of players - customers - want an upgrade shop, why not provide it? After all, that's what the official trailer implies. In fact, the live streams were packed full of Ed doing exactly that - constantly re-rolling until he got the result he wanted (ie an upgrade, not a sidegrade or downgrade).

Besides...if you're correct, the fact is that if you "blaze your own trail" and choose a profession, then generally-speaking you won't be able to use Engineers at all because you need to have a multirole ship loadout to get even close to having the right materials for an Engineer to be able to give you anything at all. Given that most people are into combat or trading or mining or exploring, with ships designed for that specific purpose, that means that most people wouldn't ever be able to use the headline feature of a major release as they "cruise around the galaxy". That strikes me as a pretty poor design decision, unless forcing people out of the professions was the goal; I very much suspect that's the case.

That's an interesting point - which ships will be used to get the mods? Are we just going to see MR ships with these or will something like an FDL get modded?
 
LMAO so it's the players fault they're doing it all wrong!!

Guys?? Guys???? did you hear that? You're not meant to blaze your own trail the way you're doing it so please stop it now.

On what planet do they make games where offering a mod option isn't going to have players rushing to get the best for their ship? This was blatantly the way people were going to do it and to say that people need to play the game a set way is just staggering.

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That's an interesting point - which ships will be used to get the mods? Are we just going to see MR ships with these or will something like an FDL get modded?
Elite is a more ground breaking game than we thought!

It is the world's first Quantum game.

It simultaneously exists in a super position of "a sandbox game that you can play any way" and "GIT GUUD YOU'RE PLAYING THE GAME WRONG".
 
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I actually don't mind that crafting takes hours and hours to get the resources, that just makes it more rewarding in the end. The problem is that the gameplay of actually getting the resources is very tedious and boring.
 
Oh that statement was and is still true. However it only works on the premise, which FD have shown to be their original intention, that you just play along with whatever you get and have whatever upgrade you happen to have the materials for, and accept whatever RNG outcome happens to be at least somewhat better. It's all build like that - it works if you don't make any plans at all; same with the missions, if you need some mission-only material, have fun even finding a mission that awards it; and then have even more fun finding one that doesn't screw with you in one of multiple possible and exciting ways (for example, hurting your reputation, sending you to kill the very type of target you want to be friends with etc).

But if you design a loadout, plan ahead, are mindful of your reputation etc, then 2.1 is basically designed to infuriate you.

Can't rep you more so have a virtual +1 Rep instead.
What you said is what I am thinking since the beta phase but couldn't put it into words (can't write in English good enough).

I was thinking about games like Star Wolves (1 and 3) where you need to plan ahead for the incoming battle.
And because of that I was spending a lot of time in the outfitting screen to create the ships loadout and crew composition with scarce resources.
It was fun to me because I was spending time to think about strategy instead of grinding.
ED is not a tactical real time game, granted but to some extend you need to plan ahead and make the good tactical choices in order to survive.
Which ship and loadout will I use and for what purpose ? It is very still valid but here comes the Engineers and the RNG...
You have to face NPCs with modded ships and in the near future more and more Cmdrs with modded modules as well if they get lucky with dice roll (but that is another matter).

I like to think about my next move, checking the security system level and both political and economic state, Cmdrs activities, in order to get a picture of the situation.
Based on that I try to plan ahead and make choices to deal with anything or at least to be prepared the best I can to face the real randomness : others Commanders.

I thought the Engineers upgrades would make the choice process even more deep and engaging regarding the ships modules and loadout.
But no, it doesn't matter how much time, and how, I spend that time to gather the requested resources because it is all decided by RNG.

*Please insert a coin into the slot machine*
Well, no, I won't.

I'll keep flying the spaceships I like in this beautiful milky way galaxy (I really enjoy that), ignoring the Engineers for now, until I can't.
Then I will have to make a real choice.
 
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So once you have better shields and weapons and I have better shields and weapons and everyone else has better shields and weapons, how is that any different from going back to the time before the Engineers were introduced - they make themselves redundant in a month or two or six, depending on how much time you have. Then what?

Who is going to exhaust all the engineers for all ranks in six months? way too underestimated the time for most people and once one ship is upgraded there are many others to work on, this is not something that is going to be 'done'.

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Because upgrades take so long and only apply to one ship then I would not worry about it becoming too prolific.

By the way, do the upgrades get retained on ship by back on the insurance screen ? I guess they do, but asking anyway.
 
Whatever about the engineer mods, which I'm happy to take my time getting, but the OP is about more than this. It's about aspects which are bugged and the cause of lots of wasted time being left in the game also. Several missions were introduced in 2.1 which were not completable. One would think it shouldn't take 6 months to fix them, but it did. And now, in the next big update there are more missions which can't be completed. I can only hope it doesn't take another 6 months to fix them.

If they aren't working, at least remove them. The OP makes a good point regarding time spent in game.
 
Also, I have several ships of different types in my fleet, I can no longer just go and fetch another ship and go do stuff, I have to seriously consider whether the ship I'm jumping into is worthy or not, even after taking it to Founder's. That means I'm off grinding for upgrades instead of doing what I want.

No way I'm going through all this on each individual ship I own, not enough time in a year to eek out fun doing that. I've only been in the Python since release, if I had to go through this for each ship I wouldn't bother.

You're spot on with this one. Have some +rep!
 
There seems to be a persisting confusion. I am in no way saying that I am unhappy to take my time getting the engineer mods. I like this aspect of the game. I like it being something I have to gradually work towards. I really like the resource gathering, I like that it makes me try bits of the game I may not have before. I like the sense of discovery. I like that it takes time. This is not a "now now now, path of least resistance" issue. But once you have the materials for a mod, you should be able to get the mod you want, with the effects that you want. You should be able to plan, set yourself goals, then work out how you are going to achieve those goals. If you fail those goals it should be because you have made a mistake somewhere along the line, then you can learn from that mistake to do it better next time. That way even your failure is an achievement. Adding RNG at the reward stage of the goal cheapens victory as much as failure. You did not get the best mod because you did something clever, or you were persistent enough to find that ultra rare material; you got it because the computer rolled a 6. There is nothing laudable about being randomly assigned a higher digit than you were last time.

So again, this is not about the amount of time things take, but adequately rewarding that time so that the player feels proud of their accomplishments.

There is a second issue which I should like to address. Many have said that the intention is that you just go about your usual business and then, sooner or later, you will have acquired some materials and will be able to get some upgrades. If this was the intention then the lack of adequate out of ship storage was a colossal oversight. In order to get the materials you need to mine, scoop cargo, scan wakes, land on planets and go driving around, scan ships, blow ships up and also scan systems. This means that you HAVE to use a multirole ship. A multirole which is going to be constantly targeted by pirates because you are going to be carrying cargo. You will also fill your 600 materials limit very quickly, and without knowing what upgrades you are working towards, you won't know what to dispose of. So then you will travel to all of the Engineers in turn hoping that one of them has a blueprint that:

1, You want to install (Explorers for instance are not going to want sturdy mounts for their weapons for several reasons) and
2, You have the materials for.

I tried this approach and you end up with a lot of common materials, but not necessarily the specific rares you need for the upgrades you want. No matter how you play you are going to want specific upgrades. An explorer for example is not going to be interested in drives which increase thermal load, heavier-sturdy weapons, or anything else that increase mass or heat generation. If you want to do this for a combat ship - and you probably do because "look at all those cool weapons effects that you can get" - there is another problem. The small jump range means visiting all the engineers take a long time and lack of cargo means that you can't swap to the ship and transfer the cargo, so again you have to know what you are working towards and who has it.

And after all of that, there is still a chance that instead of a 45% boost to your optimal FSD mass you will get a 15% boost. Or a 29% boost rather than a 68% boost to dps.

Again, I say that the time taken for the materials gathering seems entirely appropriate. I can work towards it, then put it down and do something else, maybe get some more by chance, then go back and specifically look for more. Then, when I have done that I can keep my eyes open for a mission that has the commodities i need, and when that comes up, take it and trot off to get my mod. But to then be presented with such a massive swing in stats trivialises the effort put in, and is not respectful of the fact that I have just spent a week of my free time trying to achieve this goal. Please let me work towards something defined and specific, rather than random.
 
So which is more valuable to you, the cutter bought with a couple months of dedicated work, or the cutter that gets bought after a week of bug exploitation?

So long as it's earned legitimately, does it matter? What is this peculiar notion that things have to take ages to earn to be "special"? Time isn't a secret ingredient that makes something better the more you add to it. They're internet spaceships, not life goals.

Either way though, hopefully it's not too valuable because under the current patch it's going to melt in seconds with the wrong encounter.

All the people on this thread complaining about the process, be it the RNG or the material gathering in the first place, are throwing a fit....because they couldn't fully level their ships over the weekend. This is an attitude that seems to run contrary to the well established spirit of ED--if you want the biggest and best, it's going to take a bit of time.

Most things at the far end of ED take more than a 'bit of time' - it has some of the most drawn-out requirements and effort-gated assets of any game I've ever played. The OP's concern - that to earn shiny and naturally desireable Engineer mods players are presently required to endure the whims of an RNG system that requires a lot of time investment - is just a continuing trend of that gating from what I can see. I really don't know why the dev's think it's a good thing.
 
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But I have spent 20+ hours in the game this weekend and for a variety of reasons failed to achieve anything meaningful.

I spent a few hours over the weekend playing (much more than I normally am able... the wife isn't pleased), and I too felt very discouraged by the lack of progress I was able to make.

I'm a bit disappointed that even in 20 hours, you're not able to make much progress, but I am not surprised.

Thanks for the post, well written!
 
I would probably not mind spending time finding the materials IF (and thats a big and importan IF) it meant that the engineers would give me something i wanted after my hard work and not those extra 2 layers or RNG(Gamble) uncertainty. that most likely will give me nothing. :/
 
Then don't gun for the engineer upgrades as an end goal, they weren't intended to be that. It's set to blend in with the pacing of the rest of the game and if you've been playing a while the natural instinct is to just grind the crap out of this one part of ED like it was content put in just for players like you.

It wasn't.

If you imagine ED to be a road, which is the worst analogy ever but I'm using it so get over it, then grinding out engineer upgrades is the equivalent of perceiving that road as having had an extra mile added onto the end of it for people who have reached the end of the road. This is not the case though, because ED was never a single road nor was Engineers tacked onto the end of that road as an extension for the "End-game" player base.

Instead ED is more like a grid of roads pulled out of a city, or a very large maze. The engineers patch is not an extension of any one road, it's another piece of the puzzle that's just been mooshed into the middle that you'll end up dipping in and out of as you go about digging through the rest of the game.

If you go about doing nothing with your time but seeking out components for engineer upgrades and then specifically upgrading your ship part by part, you're wasting your time. YOU are, not FD, because the intention is that those components are secondary rewards for primary activities. They are not primary rewards, and the acquisition of them is not a primary activity, so you're only getting a partial reward for your time spent if that's all that you were getting from the activity.

Mate no offence but you are waffling. First you said the game has an illusory economy, then you say that things required for engineer upgrades should not be the main goal of your playtime.

So make your mind up, what should he be playing for?

You sound like you have some serious love affair going on with the game, and power to you, thats great. However, a lot of people play games, and like to see tangible rewards. Hell a lot of people dont even want them quickly, but playing 20 hours and getting nowhere is BAD game design 101, no matter how glorious and noble you personally might think the idea of simply flying around running repetitive tasks may be.

The fact is, you came across so passive aggressive bordering on wanting to basically tell the guy he is wrong because he doesn't play how you play. That is your business. He said he was a beta backer, i notice you didn't really comment about that, you just picked the parts you thought you could formulate your best "play for fun not for rewards" speech on.

Sorry mate, you might, but most people don't play games that way. Just accept it and maybe tone down your posts right off the bat, instead of coming across like a hugely unemployed fanboy. I am not saying you are, but thats how your comment came across to me.

Even Brett C said it was a well written and constructive post, and it was.
 
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Sorry mate, you might, but most people don't play games that way. Just accept it and maybe tone down your posts right off the bat, instead of coming across like a hugely unemployed fanboy.

Well, the rest of the post was fine until this bit at the end. Little harsh Reza, employment status shouldn't be used as a weapon in forums debates - it's really not fair on those who do struggle :| Sorry for off-topic point.
 
Whilst its still another 3 days (more like 2 though :D) until I can see what this engineers fuss is all about, I must agree with the OP - having multiple layers of RNG at the end of hours of focused play.... that sounds like a recipe for frustration...
 
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