I fully agree with the OP and also SP4X which makes also valid points. Understand the drawbacks and such, and even maybe minor differences when you perform the upgrade. But, as the OP eloquently pointed out, these guys are supposed to be the top of the top, the best ones out there. There is no place for such randomness. SP4X makes strong arguments with his tyre development. +1 to both. Hope this will be fixed at some point, or that the randomness is somewhat toned down.
I see your point there and yeah you're right, it is annoying to read that RNG is intrinsically bad/unrealistic (and I might've had something to do with that by oversimplifying it, sorry). Not all RNG systems are bad, there's plenty of good examples around, and the ones that I always go back to are the videos from Extra Credits about Randomness (although, to be fair, they're not really about space games).
For example, where Hubble has found only a few galaxies within 500 million years of the Big Bang, we now know (from Hubble) that WFIRST will find hundreds of these rare objects.
Oh my God that's is so cool!
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Thanks, buddy. I've never been called eloquent before
UPDATE: FDev have begun looking at this and other issues in 2.1: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=257892
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Beginning a post with TLDR and then proclaiming a poorly informed slight on other posters does nothing for the discussion we're having. :x
Perhaps explain what your position on the RNG upgrades is and what benefits/drawbacks they have on the game?
To the OP thank you for so perfectly detailing the failings of using RNG as a method of upgrading. You could not have voiced my frustration and disappointment with what Elite Dangerous has become for me better. Plus 1 REP
Another idea could be that the CMDR is allowed to set the DESIRED parameters for the job.
The cost for the modification will increase exponentially the better the desired mod result.
The modifications must be within the engineer rating
Adding surplus materials above the minimum allows for the engineer to test the design more and reduce the chance for a bad roll
The cost for the modification will increase exponentially the better the desired mod result.
The modifications must be within the engineer rating
Adding surplus materials above the minimum allows for the engineer to test the design more and reduce the chance for a bad roll
Thanks, buddy! +rep back to you
Bloody hell that's a fantastic idea! I'll add it to the OP ASAP! Have some +rep sir
They've not made me anything yet that isn't considerably better at the specification I chose than previously
, losing the RNG also loses the fact that a variety of recipes get an extra roll that generally improves them whereas the most desirable recipes are setup to be more difficulty to random good versions.For example Pulse lasers you can overcharge or make efficient if you want damage, overcharge generally rolls within its variables, efficient has positive side effects that can quite easily make it do more damage and more efficient.
I think people aren't viewing the whole system from the outside well enough at the moment, bad RNG is really offensive i'm totally on board but if you limit it they really shouldn't even bother with engineer leveling or specific stats, just let us buy upgrades and be done with it. In its current incarnation I pick a mod and i'll either get an upgrade, or a big upgrade that excites me. I'm ok with that.
Edit: I am a lifelong ARPG player however so my tolerance for bad drops is pretty high I guess, anybody who plays path of the exile atm will know about this you can do hundreds of maps before you get any sort of top tier loot.
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I agree, as an engineer myself, if someone wanted me to build a 12 Volt power supply, that's what they got. The current in game system, would have seen me grabbing a handful of components, shuffle them, and use the one's that landed on the work bench. "Dear customer, here is your 12 Volt power supply as ordered, please note it will only produce 6 volts, maybe next time we will get lucky.
In this case you would be given a 12v supply and ask to tweak it.
You give him a 12v power supply that can only supply 11v but is now twice as heavy but has an extra capacitor to protect it from short circuiting - but it charges things twice as fast.
Maybe... but how many rolls out it take to get that? Would you trust an engineer that asked you for tens of power supply units to come up with one that has good improvements? Would you pay for that kind of service? That's the other part of this problem that this counter-example doesn't cover, which I think is a big deal.
Finally, someone who acknowledges this terrible system instead of telling me it is so wonderful and I am choosing to grind. +rep for you and a great thread.
I like to work on my car in real life.
If I need the help of a shop for a specific mod, do I have to run crappy errands to get them to like me enough first? No, that would be dumb.
Do I need to drive around in my car for weeks gathering raw materials to bring to them? No, that would be dumb.
Would I drive around for those weeks with all the components taking up space in my car? No, that would be dumb.
Would these places modify your car not knowing what the performance gains would be? No, that would be dumb.
Would I go back and pay them the same price to try the same method again to see if somehow there wouldn't be a loss in performance? No, that would be dumb.
Engineers in its current state is just dumb.
The fix to this is simple, stop putting limits on things in a sandbox game. Doing dull things to fill a bar, so you can talk to someone that lets you play a slot machine is not enticing gameplay. Make the upgrades cost currency like everything else in life. That way I can kill things to upgrade my beam laser instead of flying in a line in super cruise for hours waiting for a datapoint to appear. I can also avoid exiting and entering the game (congrats on not fixing this yet by the way) to try to refresh the mission board for a mission I don't want to do. Ditch the RNG mechanics since we already are rolling the dice for hours hoping the appropriate opportunity for a rare material shows itself. Stop walling off your content and claiming it is gameplay. As the Op said...many of us have jobs in real life...I don't need another one in what used to be my favorite game.
I'm happy some people can play the game 20+ hours a week and get their upgrades but I feel like that is probably a minority of the game population.
I like to work on my car in real life.
If I need the help of a shop for a specific mod, do I have to run crappy errands to get them to like me enough first? No, that would be dumb.
Do I need to drive around in my car for weeks gathering raw materials to bring to them? No, that would be dumb.
Would I drive around for those weeks with all the components taking up space in my car? No, that would be dumb.
Would these places modify your car not knowing what the performance gains would be? No, that would be dumb.
Would I go back and pay them the same price to try the same method again to see if somehow there wouldn't be a loss in performance? No, that would be dumb.
Engineers in its current state is just dumb.
The fix to this is simple, stop putting limits on things in a sandbox game. Doing dull things to fill a bar, so you can talk to someone that lets you play a slot machine is not enticing gameplay. Make the upgrades cost currency like everything else in life. That way I can kill things to upgrade my beam laser instead of flying in a line in super cruise for hours waiting for a datapoint to appear. I can also avoid exiting and entering the game (congrats on not fixing this yet by the way) to try to refresh the mission board for a mission I don't want to do. Ditch the RNG mechanics since we already are rolling the dice for hours hoping the appropriate opportunity for a rare material shows itself. Stop walling off your content and claiming it is gameplay. As the Op said...many of us have jobs in real life...I don't need another one in what used to be my favorite game.
I'm happy some people can play the game 20+ hours a week and get their upgrades but I feel like that is probably a minority of the game population.
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Too much time spent only to see all that effort wasted on some rubbish random result is soul destroying and just makes folks give up on it.
SIR You have spoken the truth I have been saying exactly the same thing since this patch went live. I had very expensive mods done to my old car, and you put it exactly as it should be. I cannot understand how the cmdrs that scream Immersion breaking and Elite is supposed to be realistic, can defend the RNGeniers. This is the most Immersion breaking thing the game has ever done.
Mods should be obtained with credits only, and if you really want to put a challenge on it, make it so if your ship is destroyed you loose the mods and go back to stock parts. That way you add a real since of danger to the whole upgrading thing.
30+ hours to get 3 mods. 2 of them I sold as they were actually worse than the default component. powerplant upgrade 20.40 org to 20.46 modded with way more weight and something else that made my ship worse. I had to spend the resources that took me at that time 20 hours to get 1 roll. they should be able to Roll without the use of the resources so you can get what you want(mostly) in a timely fashion. I still well after about 36 hours now, have not found conductive components for a rank 2 engine upgrade. my clean engine upgrade was good at 1.1% gain and much better heat. thank god. but there I am loving that 1.1%....should have been at least 2.5%....grrrr
BTW it took me 10 min to source samarium in the real world in my city at a gem and metal dealer. used in magnets I guess. took me HOURS and HOURS in a 3300 century environment. humm
BTW it took me 10 min to source samarium in the real world in my city at a gem and metal dealer. used in magnets I guess. took me HOURS and HOURS in a 3300 century environment. humm
The problem with this RNG retardation they spent 5 minutes on implementing is that it is not only lazy, a waste of time and effort, and the biggest joke I've ever seen; but it's also not possible to even call it crating as by definition crafting requires human agency. Since we have zero input and can control zero aspects of the crap outcomes this is simply gambling, not crafting, and most definitely not at all what they said they would be giving us prior to beta.
Everyone who isn't happy with wasting their time with this garbage has been saying the same thing as OP since beta1 first dropped. And since FD have a massive reputation for leaving things half finished (missions, instancing) I can only hope they simply remove the engineers with the delete button for all the good it is. And their proposed turning rep into a currency for the special effects is just as much of a joke excuse for introducing another time sink for no benefit since it won't even guarrantie that you get a special effect, only that you will get a certain one IF you get one at all.
Everyone who isn't happy with wasting their time with this garbage has been saying the same thing as OP since beta1 first dropped. And since FD have a massive reputation for leaving things half finished (missions, instancing) I can only hope they simply remove the engineers with the delete button for all the good it is. And their proposed turning rep into a currency for the special effects is just as much of a joke excuse for introducing another time sink for no benefit since it won't even guarrantie that you get a special effect, only that you will get a certain one IF you get one at all.
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
Well luckily as it was only 5 minutes it wasn't too much time and effort wasted then, was it?