Let's discuss the skill gap in Elite Dangerous between players

[Crimson Kaim]

And this may be a bigger problem than I would have expected.

We just arrived at a AI level where one third is happy with, one third thinks it is too frustrating and difficult and the last third still thinks it is too easy. Or anything similar to that.
Every day a new thread is created claiming AI is too powerful now as a player didn't manage to destroy a Vulture in his Python in less than 5 minutes and was actually in danger.
On the other hand we have posts about AI behaving weird as they can not calculate the risk they are currently in properly and therefore act differently than a human player would do, making them pretty predictable and easy to deal with.

But for the furutre design of the AI and the balance between the players.


Do you think the skill gap between players in Elite: Dangerous is significant and do you think FD should be concerned?


Because this is basically like a match based shooter game with a matchmaker (ED CQC for example). Newbies don't really like it to get matched with veterans (well, I do like it tho hehe) and vice versa: veterans don't like newbies in their match.
I am not saying we should devide this player base based on a skill level but I really do thin kthe skill gap is HUGE.

To be honest I do not feel that the A-rated Python player who struggles against an AI Viper should get rewarded the same way as an experienced player who is able to destroy Elite AI Pythons in a Viper.


But back to the question: Do you think the skill gap between players in Elite: Dangerous is significant and if so do you think FD should be concerned?

 

[Ziljan]

The skill gap between "NPC fodder" and "can survive 99% of encounters" is actually really really small.

That being said, the skill gap between "competent pilot" and "steely eyed killer" is rather large. That is because a Elite has a low threshold for competency, but a high skill ceiling. That's actually a sign of a well designed game mechanic.

 

[Becks]

Do you think the skill gap between players in Elite: Dangerous is significant and do you think FD should be concerned?

There're skillgaps in every game, that's something a Developer can't avoid.

Is it significant... I'm not sure. In PvP it's certainly significant, but in PvE not. If PvE players cooperate they're usually much stronger regardless of how big the skillgaps between them is.

The main problem (and the source of those threads) is that most people are not yet used to the new AI and that FDev has not calibrated certain aspects (like what defines the difficulty of the attacking NPC) yet.

 

[myrr mac]

OP is being disingenuous. Very few people on the "too hard" side would say what you claim they say. Try actually reading their complaints and being fair in your summary of their views. Pretty low of you tbh.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Do you think the skill gap between players in Elite: Dangerous is significant and do you think FD should be concerned?

Concerned as in worried - no.

Concerned as in give it some thought when making changes - sure.

It's a shame that ED doesn't have the concept of Tech Level for their systems (though I am sure some thing similar exists that could translate) as FD could tailor the experience around that for players. The higher the tech level the more aggressive / difficult the NPCs and the better ships / loadouts they fly. That way, depending upon your own skill level, you could use TL as a guage for when to engage.

 

[Marshall...]

Yes, of course there is a large skill gap.

Some folks are not interested in combat at all, so the "new" AI is proving troublesome to say the least.
The farmers may be frustrated by the step change, meaning they have to think when engaging.
The Sidey to Conda in 10 days folks (hello Robigo), I guess are also smarting, as they lack experience.
Casual folks who dip into and out of the game, may feel they have been hit by a train.

Should Frontier be concerned? Well, I think they should monitor how things bed in over the next month or so. There will always be a disparity over player competency levels in a given field.

What's really telling for me, is that previously I had two Pythons, one loaded for PvE the other for PvP. Now I am finding i'm using my PvP Python for PvE combat (which I personally really like).

 

[bamber]

Its not a skills gap as much as a risk awareness gap
.
The risk has increased - what hasn't changed is players ability to manage that risk. Also people expect to win against a computer, their view is I am a human this is a game I should always win
.
I read a lot of post - AI is to strong I get in a fight and am just getting away with it with 23% hull in my mining anaconda against an FDL
.
my question isn't about the skill of the pilot but the risk awareness - what the hell you doing going to 23% hull?
.
I take on fights I can win - the rest of the time I run away. Why don't people want to run away?
.
Standing and fighting against a ship is not always a good tactic

 

[Boomer Kay]

(though I am sure some thing similar exists that could translate)

Security rating and government type. It's a shame that noone ever pays attention to that.

There seem to be a few issues/bugs at the moment however, that mud the picture:
- Powerplay NPCs EVERYWHERE (I've never seen PP NPCs in Res before 2.1, now they're pretty much in all of them). I've also seen a commander attacked and destroyed at (actually in the "no fire zone" of) an outpost by a wing of PP NPCs - that does not seem right - if they're supposed to be around outposts/stations, they have to pay attention to station regulations!
- "ambient NPC" level too high (those that get spawned randomly when you enter a system) - used to be in the harmless-expert range, now it's deadly-elite
- Mission NPCs not spawning according to mission rating (seems to be set at dangerous and above)
- triggered NPCs that follow you around and attack you everywhere (like the FDL that used to spawn and follow you around everywhere - had that for a week or two, then he was gone).

If they fix all of that stuff (and they asked for bug reports if one encounters "unusual NPC behaviour"), the game should work as intended.

Oh, and maybe there is some "hidden" attributes that influences NPC behaviour like your reputation. Before 2.1, if you were allied with a major power, you were allied with all the small factions surrounding it as well. Now, you start indifferent, which might increase the chances of their ships interdicting you.
Anarchy was interdiction bonanza before 2.1 anyways. Getting interdicted 2-4 times from drop in to destination was not unusual - just the "ambient NPC" levels being so low, it didn't really matter.

Do you think the skill gap between players in Elite: Dangerous is significant and if so do you think FD should be concerned?

Yes and no, but they should not put a patch in before a weekend when noone is there for 3 days to quickfix things.

 

[xaisis]

There is a GAP but, i do not think that is a problem, a player can learn & adapt.

>>>>>If they want to<<<<<

And that is the problem i think, some players who posted complaints does not seem to have wanted to try and adapt to the new situation.
Their threads usually holds little information about their ship or ai that killed them.

So the people who wants to help have to first dig to find out such things, and some of the "thread starters" have shown that the they where in a ship with such a low rebuy it had to be E or D rated.
Also it would seem no1 checks forums for help before they post the complaint.

I do try to be polite, but it is starting to get annoying.

 

[The_Quasar]

There is a gap, but the main problem is that those that are not skilled tend to whine in these forums instead of trying to improve their skills.

If only they would just read this thread and take in what it recommends, I'm certain that in no time they would be in the "happy with" group.

After a while, many would then graduate to the "too easy" group too.

Unfortunately, it's fashionable these days to expect things to be delivered "on a plate" without any effort, and kudos to FD for resisting that scenario.

New players should realise that this is a game that requires quite a bit of input from players, however, when they do realise that, it makes the game so much more enjoyable! You get out what you put in.

 

[Hagledesperado]

Give weight to location. Make the system security level significant, and make it obvious. Some games do this, and it's brilliant IMO. The player can game at their own pace. It seems realistic, immersive.

You can
* Go somewhere dangerous, get scared, run away, have an exciting experience.
Or you can
* Go somewhere dangerous, kill everything that moves, feel like Rambo, have an exciting experience.
Or you can
* Go somewhere safe, chill out, have a relaxing experience.

Who would not want this freedom of choice in a game?

 

[Boomer Kay]

Give weight to location. Make the system security level significant, and make it obvious. Some games do this, and it's brilliant IMO. The player can game at their own pace. It seems realistic, immersive.

Well, bugs aside, that's pretty much how it works. I'd guesstimate low security Anarchy has about 90+% chance of spawning a NPC that will interdict you and high security about 1-5%.

Make that more obvious? Eh .. pay more attention.

 

[anikaiful]

Skill gap between players? Well, there's nothing in the world that can do anything about that - some are more skilled, some never gain any.

 

[GaryII]

Look at CQC stats, there are players who have k/d well over 2 and other who are below 1 and skill difference are huge here...

Bad CQC player (k/d < 1) have almost 0 change to kill CQC Elite pilot.

The same applies to main game, there are pilots who really straggle with new AI and for others new AI is nothing spacial..

I am 99 % sure that FD will nerf AI, since majority of players are avarage or bad in combat...

 

[Whiterose]

I quite like the posts from people that are getting killed every time they leave port, not because of any sadistic vengeance, but it means that I am not as crap as I thought, and there are worse than me, as I haven't lost a ship since the 2.01.02 patch, come close several times though.

 

[Cynaqq]

And that is the problem i think, some players who posted complaints does not seem to have wanted to try and adapt to the new situation.
Their threads usually holds little information about their ship or ai that killed them.

I think this is because they simply don't know. They don't have enough a grasp on the game to understand what they have in their ship, what it does and how it interacts with whatever the game throws against them. They just don't understand these mechanics and think survival in this game is just an innate part of moving the ship with your intuition.

I seriously think a lot of the complainers are not aware of the fact that most people answering them couldn't survive the situation they lost their ships to, within the same exact loadouts. They think a truly competent pilot would magically be able to fly the trade conda equipped with weak shields and no weapons in such a way that will let them kill that elite imp. courier with railguns. The reality is, the competent player wouldn't be in the same situation to begin with. They would fit appropriate shields as a first step and know to put four pips to systems before disengaging to jump to another system.

What we call skill gap is nothing more than a gap in general game understanding, which is far from an innate ability but something you can learn and teach others. You have to learn in fact, from somewhere. It won't come to you on its own the more you practice. You will just be frustrated and unhappy.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Skill gap between players? Well, there's nothing in the world that can do anything about that - some are more skilled, some never gain any.

It's still a social meta-coop game. I wonder how that could be missed that much.

I do understand that explorers in light ships have huge issues crossing the Anarchy rim around the bubble, where 9/10 systems you jump to have a guaranteed interdiction.
Solution: get some friends (regardless of mode) together and flip one of the outmosts systems to something better (I think dictatorship or democracy are good, no idea how to increase security level, but I'm sure one of the BGS specialists knows) as first stop to sell off those millions of exploration data.

Or follow those methods to fly, so you're safe most of the time:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=258650&page=14&p=4012945#post4012945

 

[babelfisch]

Concerned as in worried - no.

Concerned as in give it some thought when making changes - sure.

It's a shame that ED doesn't have the concept of Tech Level for their systems (though I am sure some thing similar exists that could translate) as FD could tailor the experience around that for players. The higher the tech level the more aggressive / difficult the NPCs and the better ships / loadouts they fly. That way, depending upon your own skill level, you could use TL as a guage for when to engage.

Something like this?

Wow... what a lot to read!
The answer to the poll (in my eyes) is yes to all. Could it be changed to please everyone? Perhaps...

"It's too easy!"

Moving forward, high ranks could use adaptive logic. This just means the harder you fought, the harder the AI could fight. Would hopefully mean a good challenge for skilled players.

"It's just right."

Perhaps, but I could take it down a notch and throw in more tactics to create a more enjoyable and less predictable experience.

"It's too hard!"

Adaptive logic could dynamically downgrade AI performance to give players a chance. E.g. player is fleeing... Pirate AI could downgrade its weapon accuracy and boosting ability, giving the player a good chance to escape.

Well, just some of my own personal thoughts.

 

[pippo]

Is this one of these "look how big mine is" sort of thread?

 

[wagfeliz]

This happens because this game has no progression.
For some the game is easy because there is no place to find very hard NPCs with proper reward.
For some the game is hard because there is no place to find very easy NPCs with less reward then normal.
The game was better before in this aspect, you could find easier fight in Res Low for example, today you will find elite anacondas with OP modules in low Res and Npc police in Haz Res, it makes no sense, I have no idea why the designers change that, it just show how bad game designers they are.