Let's discuss the skill gap in Elite Dangerous between players
- Thread starter Crimson Kaim
- Start date
I'll be honest I'm struggling a bit with the new AI, mainly because i refuse to get out of my "minna-cconda" (not even A rated) as I'm too busy collecting materials and doing missions for certain factions to make engineers like me enough to give up those upgrades.
My main issue is the BUGS!!!!!!
While landing at a planet i got a message telling me that I was under "engine attack" and my ship just lost power and fell out of the sky... there wasn't even any other ships in the area! Luckily i survived, but legged it to a landing pad pronto.
I also feel certain inconsistencies are hurting the game, mainly PP NPC's everywhere (which I appreciate has been sorted -i think) and pirates that instaspwan in behind you shouting "oh look at all that cargo" leaving me to wonder if they have a special cargo scanner that works in SC or if they just say that to the boys...
Saying that I've only lost one exploration cobra (mk3) since the update so i cant be doing too badly.
My main issue is the BUGS!!!!!!
While landing at a planet i got a message telling me that I was under "engine attack" and my ship just lost power and fell out of the sky... there wasn't even any other ships in the area! Luckily i survived, but legged it to a landing pad pronto.
I also feel certain inconsistencies are hurting the game, mainly PP NPC's everywhere (which I appreciate has been sorted -i think) and pirates that instaspwan in behind you shouting "oh look at all that cargo" leaving me to wonder if they have a special cargo scanner that works in SC or if they just say that to the boys...
Saying that I've only lost one exploration cobra (mk3) since the update so i cant be doing too badly.
Stay in the Sidewinder and there is no consequence of death in ED.
Stay in a ship that allows you 50 rebuys and the consequence of death is negligible.
I've flown every ship since the T6 without insurance coverage for quite some time. Usually with barely enough money to fill the cargo hold. I trust my skills (and still do after 2.1), I don't need that safety net. You want a safety net? Make it as large as you want. 50 rebuys, 100 rebuys ..
Scaling difficulty .. pffft.
After tackling all my 2.1-live combat in a Viper MK 4 and then shifting last night to a Vulture which is what I flew long before 2.1, I am seriously starting to think that the apparent 'skill gap in players' is less a thing and more than how the new AI and performance has been set up to pose challenge is targeting a very specific area that punishes one category of ship players probably use more if they're focusing less on combat, whilst still not really posing a significant threat to other categories a player is more likely to use if they are focusing on combat..
Because after shifting back to the Vulture the first thing I immediately noticed was that the AI itself isn't actually any good at flying, nor reacting at all. It's still the same rinse and repeated canned loop behaviour, but one that comes across as more challenging when you're in a ship with certain characteristics (Below average turning or acceleration, limited hardpoints and/or hardpoint positioning) that the performance improvements to NPC ships made that act as a crutch for the new canned loop behaviour completely circumvent those types of ships a player might be in.
However if you transition to a ship like the Vulture or anything for that matter with moderate or above manoeuvrability (and acceleration of course) or less manoeuvrable ships but with extensive hardpoint hull coverage (Pythons, Anacondas, corvettes) that can negate the crutch that the across the board NPC ship performance boost serves, then you're left with a AI that will fly around in circles kind of clueless letting you lay into them non-stop and unable to ever escape your grasp because every tool in their toolbox is built around utilising their performance boosts to carry limited behaviour loops.
As soon as the performance can't out right counteract the players ship just because the player is flying rock and the NPC ships are now designed to act as paper (which as everyone knows, paper beats rock just because), then the NPC ships have nothing to stand on outside running with plasma accelerators and missiles to try out DPS the player before they die.
And in my book I'd consider this a glaring problem with the current changes. By design it's highly effective and directly counteracts non-combat or multi-role orientated ship archetypes, whilst standing very little use against combat focused ship that offer a medium amount of manoeuvrability and acceleration, or alternative are large hulks that can sport turret coverage.... the scales are lobbed sided toward the wrong side.
The return of broken event/spawn triggers that cause NPCs to become omnipresent and just appear in any and all instances you drop into until you 'deal with them' and such, which is a series problem we had way back last year that Frontier already addressed but appears someone added back into the game with 2.1 for some reason just makes things more frustrating for those players that are flying 'Rock'.
Because after shifting back to the Vulture the first thing I immediately noticed was that the AI itself isn't actually any good at flying, nor reacting at all. It's still the same rinse and repeated canned loop behaviour, but one that comes across as more challenging when you're in a ship with certain characteristics (Below average turning or acceleration, limited hardpoints and/or hardpoint positioning) that the performance improvements to NPC ships made that act as a crutch for the new canned loop behaviour completely circumvent those types of ships a player might be in.
However if you transition to a ship like the Vulture or anything for that matter with moderate or above manoeuvrability (and acceleration of course) or less manoeuvrable ships but with extensive hardpoint hull coverage (Pythons, Anacondas, corvettes) that can negate the crutch that the across the board NPC ship performance boost serves, then you're left with a AI that will fly around in circles kind of clueless letting you lay into them non-stop and unable to ever escape your grasp because every tool in their toolbox is built around utilising their performance boosts to carry limited behaviour loops.
As soon as the performance can't out right counteract the players ship just because the player is flying rock and the NPC ships are now designed to act as paper (which as everyone knows, paper beats rock just because), then the NPC ships have nothing to stand on outside running with plasma accelerators and missiles to try out DPS the player before they die.
And in my book I'd consider this a glaring problem with the current changes. By design it's highly effective and directly counteracts non-combat or multi-role orientated ship archetypes, whilst standing very little use against combat focused ship that offer a medium amount of manoeuvrability and acceleration, or alternative are large hulks that can sport turret coverage.... the scales are lobbed sided toward the wrong side.
The return of broken event/spawn triggers that cause NPCs to become omnipresent and just appear in any and all instances you drop into until you 'deal with them' and such, which is a series problem we had way back last year that Frontier already addressed but appears someone added back into the game with 2.1 for some reason just makes things more frustrating for those players that are flying 'Rock'.
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![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
not all games have to be that popular tho... there is such a thing as a niche title and that is just fine.............
...you mean Frontier are spying on our galactic endeavours, watching everything we do with cold detached eyes of judgment? ._.
I'll start wearing pants in the cockpit.
really wish people would stop comparing those games. Very little in common beyond the surface. The type of experience NMS is aiming for has little to do with Elite. I don't know if you've seen vids of NMS combat but it's clearly an arcade style combat. No real focus on being a space sim. NMS is about discovery. It wont' have a background simulation, it won't have an elaborate economy and trading, as far as i know it won't even have mining. It won't have faction and a mission board. ED is about being the experience of being a pilot. I guarantee you no matter the sales figures NMS will reach (assuming it does well which we don't yet know, hype is hype) that FD is not gonna regret what they've done. Because they've been making the type of game they had in mind.
Also another thing, you forget ED is a ten year plan. Of course to reach that ten years they will have to keep the sales figures, year in year out, at a decent sustainable level, but if the game even makes it to 5 years, i suspect it will be very different than the game we're playing right now. And whatever elements of NMS are drawing people, similar things might have been included in ED by the time the 2020's roll out (even though i have doubts about the fps elements beyond walking in ships and stations).
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Apart from the skill gap, there's also (imo) a ship balance gap. It has been said many times before that something so small as a Eagle shouldn't be able to take out a conda or python by simply circling it over and over wittling it down.
Yes, if a patrol boat attacks a battleship the battleships main guns aren't going to be able to track it, but the smaller guns should be and they also should be able to nearly if not completely destroy it in one hit.
So it seems more of a case that the ships and/or fittings are all wrong.
There cant be that many bad players with low skill? I've went from killing everything to killing nothing overnight, why? because turrets no longer act like they once did (or so it seems), yes it was daft them shooting through your ship at things, but now its tracking is as bad as gimbled, Ive watched mine mid fight, they do nothing unless the circling ship is right in front of them... think of a unarmed B17 trying to out turn a BF109.. it isnt going to happen. And before the "get friends as escorts" kicks in, there isnt any in solo and they need to add the npc hired help asap in that case (if its the answer).
Did you check fire settings? "Fire on target" should be right. (there's a "fire forward" option, too, IIRC)
And if the setting is right did you bug report it?
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It was set (as I always have it) to fire at will. But it's like the arc has been lowered. And no I didn't report it as I thought it had just been changed and was "as intended".
Apart from the skill gap, there's also (imo) a ship balance gap. It has been said many times before that something so small as a Eagle shouldn't be able to take out a conda or python by simply circling it over and over wittling it down.
Yes, if a patrol boat attacks a battleship the battleships main guns aren't going to be able to track it, but the smaller guns should be and they also should be able to nearly if not completely destroy it in one hit.
So it seems more of a case that the ships and/or fittings are all wrong.
There cant be that many bad players with low skill? I've went from killing everything to killing nothing overnight, why? because turrets no longer act like they once did (or so it seems), yes it was daft them shooting through your ship at things, but now its tracking is as bad as gimbled, Ive watched mine mid fight, they do nothing unless the circling ship is right in front of them... think of a unarmed B17 trying to out turn a BF109.. it isnt going to happen. And before the "get friends as escorts" kicks in, there isnt any in solo and they need to add the npc hired help asap in that case (if its the answer).
Whilst turrets might be borked your analogy does not hold up. In real life, one of the most dangerous things to large ships in some situations are small, fast suicide craft that can take out a destroyer if its loaded with explosives. That is the concept of asymmetrical warfare.
The game is better for smaller ships being able to overcome bigger ones, with thought, effort and outfitting. No large ship should be practically invincible to kill without extreme firepower, barring maybe NPC capital ships..
Just because you are in a bigger ship, you should not think you are invincible. This is a problem i see across many of these posts 'Oh i have a python, i should be able to grind npcs without any danger or effort'
Whilst people are seemingly worried about new player experience, its mostly older, more established players that have gotten too comfortable in their larger, previously unkillable (for npcs) ships that seem to be be most butthurt by the update.
The changes are good.. FD just need to fix the bugs.. by time I get back to the Bubble this storm in teacup will all be over.
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Fire at will is not a good setting (was too slow to act even before 2.1 - fire on target worked better). Apart from turrets not being a good choice anyway. (you lose about 60% damage per hardpoint .. your large HP suddenly has the firepower of a small HP .. couple that with small 200MW shields and you have the combat stats of that Viper you're fighting ... with the Viper being much more manouverable)
Put some alpha damage gimballed on. As much as your Powerplant supports. (Beam lasers and some large MCs - I'm not very good with fixed weapons, so the advent of the huge gimballed weapons is like christmas
)They interdict you and spawn in front of you? You target them (while you drop go contacts and select them as soon as they appear) and they melt in 3 seconds. (stuff below Viper MK IV and Vulture .. those are more difficult .. if they start to chaff but fly a straight line, untarget them and keep firing in their general direction - untargeted gimbal work like fixed)
They interdict you and get behind you? 4 pips to shields and highwake. That 5 minute fight trying to get the gimped turret damage on a halfway combat equipped eagle or viper is probably losing you more money than the bounty which you'll never pick up gives you.
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You need some good spatial awareness to succeed.
Very, very interesting thread Commander Crimson Kaim! Have some rep!(...)
But back to the question: Do you think the skill gap between players in Elite: Dangerous is significant and if so do you think FD should be concerned?
To answer your question: "YES. NO!"
The piloting skills gap is huuuuuge between players! Should Frontier be concerned? Absolutely not! This game's actual gameplay design is brilliant as it encourages you to find various paths to your progression, to your personal goals. You feel you will never reach the proper dogfight skills? There are planty ways to avoid fights...
...AND NO!!! AVOIDING FIGHT DOESNT MEAN ONLY BOOSTING AWAY WHEN ALREADY IN TROUBLE - it means to plan your path among the stars way more carefully, evaluating security level of a system before jumping to it, fallowing targets at your backs on radar in SC, jumping out of SC as soon as you'll see someone is preparing to interdict you, etc., etc.
That's why with 2.1 update Elite reached the level of enjoyment and gameplay depth as never seen before. The ones saying "It's to hard" are just to much used to pre-2.1 version of the game. Those voices will fade away as soon as new, fresh Commanders will jump into game, guys that wont have a clue how limited the gameplay was pre-2.1. When this will happen finally the threads like "I'm having a Python and they killed me!!! This game is broken!!" will gone in the wind!!!!!! Can't wait for this to happen!
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Yes, because everyone who doesn't suck at this computer game is highly skilled at being a fighter pilot. /rolleyes. That's simply not true.
You don't need to be 'highly skilled'.
Or - to put it another way - when you could rely on enemies to stop half way through the fight and spin in space, was the skill level about right?
Because that was a joke; a turkey shoot. That was a fish-in-a-barrel simulator and it spoiled many a decent engagement.
'Should'? That depends on your paradigm. Star Wars would have been a bit less interesting had every X-wing been vaped by star destroyers.
Having the largest ship should not make winning a given. Smaller ones should stand a chance. Which they now have. They also have less scope for error, because any mistake in positioning relative to a large ship is going to get you vaped.
Played much of it, have you? The comparison isn't valid because the game does not exist yet. At the moment you are comparing an existing game which is in development to the PR releases and marketing hype of a game which isn't on the market.
Unacceptable? Seriously?
How *popular* this game matters to you, to the point that the play base is less than 10% of what you demand and that's *unacceptable*?
25 million would make it the 15th biggest computer game ever, on all platforms, just to put into perspective how skewed your perspective is. Here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games
The problem I have with all the AI threads and discussion around player skill is that I couldn't care less about your game, how much you like the AI, the grind, the 'this that and the other'. Means nothing. I'm interested in my game and how much fun I'm having. And when FD alters an aspect of the game that players are used to then they may get angry: Because they care about their game and the amount of fun they're having. The game that they liked to play is now altered and is less fun.
Me - I'm happy with my skill level. I dont think the AI is too hard, or too easy, or Ok: Its busted up and broken. I'll carry on regardless I expect.
2.1 was a rough launch. Because it was a poor launch.
Me - I'm happy with my skill level. I dont think the AI is too hard, or too easy, or Ok: Its busted up and broken. I'll carry on regardless I expect.
2.1 was a rough launch. Because it was a poor launch.
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a wide range of skill among both human players and NPCs is a good thing, not a thing to be avoided
The problem here are other parts of the game that fail big time, like spawn mechanics, crime and punishment mess that we have, and some things related to the BGS
In E a safe system isn`t much safer than the war torn one or a pure anarchy system,
If the game was better structured there would be areas for every skill level (i`m not talking about lvl zones here) imaginable, and players that want to feel safe would just stick to safe systems with high police security etc., and when they would feel more competent they could venture to other, less policed systems, which would provide excellent skill based gameplay progression without the grind for arbitrary stuff like money and gear with better stats
The problem here are other parts of the game that fail big time, like spawn mechanics, crime and punishment mess that we have, and some things related to the BGS
In E
a safe system isn`t much safer than the war torn one or a pure anarchy system, If the game was better structured there would be areas for every skill level (i`m not talking about lvl zones here) imaginable, and players that want to feel safe would just stick to safe systems with high police security etc., and when they would feel more competent they could venture to other, less policed systems, which would provide excellent skill based gameplay progression without the grind for arbitrary stuff like money and gear with better stats
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-cough- you forgot to download the update.
Police arrives in 15ish seconds in a high security system.
Before they removed the purple ray of death from NPCs that might not have been enough, since you were dead in 3 seconds, but with somewhat decent shields, you should be able to survive.
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WOW!!! That's what I call "reply like a pro!"
Have some rep Commander Siranui!!!