The problem here that Frontier could have easily avoided would have been to make a few engineers space-based, not planet-based. There is absolutely no requirement that engineers be based on a planet. And before you tell be "well, you have to prospect on planets anyway to find some raw material" I say, wrong. You can find any material needed by doing missions. So, I kinda agree with the OP. By making engineers planet-based only, Frontier was forcing everyone to buy Horizons. I would think that they thought about that during the design phase and I'm sure that was an added bonus to promote the sale of Horizons.
1.6 vs 2.1 - Elite : Inverse-Paywall?
- Thread starter Turjan
- Start date
The problem here that Frontier could have easily avoided would have been to make a few engineers space-based, not planet-based. There is absolutely no requirement that engineers be based on a planet. And before you tell be "well, you have to prospect on planets anyway to find some raw material" I say, wrong. You can find any material needed by doing missions. So, I kinda agree with the OP. By making engineers planet-based only, Frontier was forcing everyone to buy Horizons. I would think that they thought about that during the design phase and I'm sure that was an added bonus to promote the sale of Horizons.
Have I once said I find the game difficult?
I will not write here what I think of your grossly exaggerated comment because that would get me an infraction.
I agree that v1.6 players should be able use what is salvaged (including modded weapons) and the salvaging should not be illegal, for any player. When salvaging weapons or other ship components from a wreck then you should be able to get them fitted in the outfitting of a station for a small price.
Then what's the whine about weapons, it you want the benefits of 2.1 buy it like the rest of us or shut up. If you have a Mac shut up about that as well and contact Apple or buy a windows pc. Either way why should you be entitled to content for free that I had to pay for. FD are not a charity so pay up or again, shut up.
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I find the complaints strange.
Elite is advertised as a "MMO" like every MMO it has expansions, you dont need to buy those expansions but normally everybody will because otherwise they get left behind.
Now the funny thing. People are complaining they cant get item X because they dont have the expansion...normally people would say, just buy the expansion. Its even much cheaper now then before...if you didnt saw that, so congratulation your patience paid off and you get it for half the initial price..be happy about it....
But nooo, lets whine AGAIN...claiming its "pay to win" is just absurd in a MMO that grows through expansions...and ED is no different.
MAC okay i can understand the complains a bit because their system doesnt support horizon. Potential every expansion after that neither. So what to do?
No idea, but asking FD to invest into a secondary galaxy and keeping it running for a small amount of players and keeping it "classic" is not a option for any buisness that trys to run a game on selling expansion and getting extra money through selling cosmetic stuff.
I really would love to wash everyones mouth with the most bitter soap trying to mark ED as "pay to win"...
Elite is advertised as a "MMO" like every MMO it has expansions, you dont need to buy those expansions but normally everybody will because otherwise they get left behind.
Now the funny thing. People are complaining they cant get item X because they dont have the expansion...normally people would say, just buy the expansion. Its even much cheaper now then before...if you didnt saw that, so congratulation your patience paid off and you get it for half the initial price..be happy about it....
But nooo, lets whine AGAIN...claiming its "pay to win" is just absurd in a MMO that grows through expansions...and ED is no different.
MAC okay i can understand the complains a bit because their system doesnt support horizon. Potential every expansion after that neither. So what to do?
No idea, but asking FD to invest into a secondary galaxy and keeping it running for a small amount of players and keeping it "classic" is not a option for any buisness that trys to run a game on selling expansion and getting extra money through selling cosmetic stuff.
I really would love to wash everyones mouth with the most bitter soap trying to mark ED as "pay to win"...
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I'm not whining at all. I provided a possible solution to a problem that has been succesfully employed by other game franchises that found themselves in a similar position.
There's another thread where someone is complaining about the negativity. Well, I just pointed out a possible solution to a problem only to get treated in a very rude and dismissive manner. Perhaps that's why people become stronger when they voice their opinions.
And before you say anything like "man up" to anyone again imagine the looks you would get from a member of the general public if they overheard that tone in relation to playing a computer game. Yes, embarrassing isn't it?
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Please elaborate. Of course I don't really think that FDEV should revoke access to the game for 1.6 players, just playing devil's advocate here. The point I was trying to make is that it's kind of unfair to call foul business practice if people are getting updates for free (95% of the 2.1 content/improvements is accessible by 1.6 players) when they are not contributing to the development of these features. People are expecting more updates for the game (and there certainly will be more updates) without paying anything for the development of those updates. So the only people who could have a right to complain are those who are actively supporting the development by buying the expansions.
PS
Without people buying expansions the game will really be dead within one year
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Tone, I wonder about the mental age of some people on this site with the nonsense they come out with and the constant rehash of threads droning on about the same thing and discussing it ad nauseam. It has been explained to you plainly the state of affairs, now again either buy 2.1 and support the game or not, that is totally up to you but spare us the whining about been left out if you chose not to pay for new content, it's simple, easy enough that any child could understand it. Also spare us your ideas on game mechanics designed to give you access to content for free while you are at it as well.
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Frontier just has to make sure that when they spawn an NPC to a 1.6 player, that NPC doesn't use any modded weapons. For those who will say that it is not fair, well, if you have Horizons and the Engineers, you can mod your weapons to be on a even level with the NPCs. Seems easy to do. If Frontier insists to keep NPCs with 2.1-based mods attacking 1.6 players, I would think that's a deliberate move to force those players to go to Horizons. By the same token where babelfish said that it was just fair that engineers be available to those who paid for the Horizons expansion, I would say it's just fair that those who didn't pay for the expansion should not be allowed to see what those modded weapons look like in 1.6...
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You may not like my idea, but you don't get to censor it. I suggest if you don't want to see anyone else's opinion that you take some time out from the forum.
Please elaborate. Of course I don't really think that FDEV should revoke access to the game for 1.6 players, just playing devil's advocate here. The point I was trying to make is that it's kind of unfair to call foul business practice if people are getting updates for free (95% of the 2.1 content/improvements is accessible by 1.6 players) when they are not contributing to the development of these features. People are expecting more updates for the game (and there certainly will be more updates) without paying anything for the development of those updates. So the only people who could have a right to complain are those who are actively supporting the development by buying the expansions.
PS
Without people buying expansions the game will really be dead within one year
Sorry, but if your point had been made clear in your post i referred to then i would have not commented negatively. It just read like a direct blow at those who do not have or want Horizons / 2.1
Doubt the game will die as such, but Expansions, when new, should not cost the same as a new release game, no matter how big or complex the expansion, charge for it, sure, but price it reasonably.
FD should not being doing anything to address players that don't buy Horizons. It's a waste of development time that will become a complete wreck if they have to balance for players with 10 variations of seasons purchased.
Force the annual upgrade. You have to ask yourself - how much development effort is put into maintaining the version-layered game? How much more could you get done without that limitation? How bad will it get if this thing really does go 10 seasons?
Force the upgrade already - consumers that are going to whine about how you're not paying attention to their old version x number of years down the road are not good for business, not good for future development, and an annoyance to those that are willing to pay for a completely fair business model (even noble amongst other present examples I'd contend).
Force the annual upgrade. You have to ask yourself - how much development effort is put into maintaining the version-layered game? How much more could you get done without that limitation? How bad will it get if this thing really does go 10 seasons?
Force the upgrade already - consumers that are going to whine about how you're not paying attention to their old version x number of years down the road are not good for business, not good for future development, and an annoyance to those that are willing to pay for a completely fair business model (even noble amongst other present examples I'd contend).
I don't mind what you want so long as you understand that if you want access to new content then you have to pay for it, that's how the real world operates I`m afraid.
But it's not. I told you about how you could gain access to weapons from add-ons that you have not purchased in the battlefield franchise. You don't have them by default, but you can win them in game. You didn't even understand my post before dismissing it completely and casting aspersions as to my ability to play. Maybe you wouldn't get so angry if you took time to read and understand posts before going off on some weirdly defensive sycophantic rant.
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No need to apologise, I wanted to get a strong reaction and you delivered
On the point of reasonable pricing: Maybe that's the money they need to ensure enough income for continuous deleopment. Also take a look at other games like CoD, AC or FIFA. If you want to play the newest version of those games you'll need to pay full price every year and you don't even get updates for your out-of-date version of the game. Lastly there will be a major sale every year, so if you think full price is too much you can get the expansion for 10 bucks.
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I presume english is your first language so I`ll refrain from explaining it to you again, just read my previous posts.
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I have paid for Horizons (and more) yet neither my equipment nor my winning has been even slightly enhanced against NPCs. They've set it up so that no matter how much $$$ you pay, you get no advantages. The only advantages E;D players can get is those you earn in-game by working for it (same for all other players)
Horizons might more correctly be described as Pay-for-additional-possible-paths-to-take-towards-winning
Horizons might more correctly be described as Pay-for-additional-possible-paths-to-take-towards-winning
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Frontier have stated many times that they will never introduce "Pay To Win" elements to this game, and I believe them.
I believe them because they're like us - first and foremost, they're gamers, and there's nothing us gamers hate more than P2W ruining an otherwise awesome game, am I right?
Well unfortunately, Frontier have done just that. They've added P2W to Elite - albeit I believe totally unknowingly and without any sinister motives. In fact I think the opposite is true - it's FDev's enthusiasm for this great game that has caused them to come a cropper here.
What am I banging on about?
NPCs. More specifically, the fact versions 1.6 AND 2.1 of Elite share the same NPCs.
NPCs in 2.1 are currently ridiculously overburdened with Engineer-specific features, because they're the new shiny and Frontier are justifiably pleased with them. But FDev's enthusiasm to include all the good stuff and showcase all that shiny led to the crazy instadeath bug we recently witnessed. So - we've been told that Engineered weapon "special effects" are being removed from NPCs, but we are also told that 'standard' modifications to all modules will remain. This means that people playing 1.6 are now facing ships with features that are only available to players of the 2.1 version - including of course the new Enhanced Performance Thrusters.
So basically by doing that, Frontier have made combat in Elite P2W. If the same player has both 1.6 and 2.1, he will ultimately fare better against NPCs with his 2.1 account because he can kit out a ship with Enhanced Performance Thrusters and Engineer mods that are simply not available to him on his 1.6 account.
But as I say, I don't believe this was a conscious thought on FDev's part. I think it's more a case of being an "Inverse-Paywall", as it were.
With a standard Paywall, content is locked away behind a paid barrier. But what's happening here is that content that should be locked away is being allowed to leak out. Players who are flying v1.6 should not be facing ships with abilities from 2.1 because 2.1 is unavailable to them.
You see the distinction?
There are three solutions to this :-
1 - make all 1.6 players buy 2.1
As desirable as that may be, it's clearly totally unacceptable because that really is P2W!
2 - create a separate, parallel galaxy for 1.6 players where the NPCs do not have 2.1 only modifications and abilities.
Not exactly what you'd call practical really, especially when we consider the whole "offline mode" debacle which essentially centred around that exact topic.
3 - remove ALL Engineer mods from NPCs
Sadly, that's the only sensible solution to prevent very valid accusations of Elite "going P2W".
It's also a logical solution, because game lore itself describes Engineers as mavericks, a shady undergound group who work behind the scenes, close knit with others of their kind, and catering to a very exclusive clientele. Unfortunately at the moment, that exclusive clientele apparently consists of the entire galaxy's NPCs...which rather makes a mockery of the whole 'rare maverick' Engineers concept really, doesn't it?
Anyway, there you go - just my thoughts.
I certainly don't suspect FDev of any wrongdoing in this matter, but it does seem to be an oversight that really must be addressed before any more negative media attention gets drawn to our beloved game! :S
Do you want me to start listing all the games that exist where there are NPCs far more powerful than the player? Bosses and similar...NPCs with abilities or health that the player doesn't have. There are quite a few.
That is not "P2W".
You are far better off making the argument that only players with access to Horizons can get modifications done which gives them an edge in PvP.
No thanks. I'll resume English isn't your first language and give you time to properly digest mine.