General / Off-Topic The future of Politics here in the UK

[Minonian]

I'm talking about immigration in general, not about the immigration from the near east in particular.

The refugees from there need to be controlled much better, I agree there. They also don't need freedom of movement in the countries which take them in until they are accepted as refugees and get an official asylum status.

Unfortunately our capacities are way to small ensure that all this gets done.

To Talk about immigration between the EU nations is a bad, false word. Between the EU countries there is no immigration, this is not immigration! This is nothing more but free movement within the same nation, because in a sense of word EU is one big nation, and we are all part of it.

 

[FuzzySpider]

We're not out yet, that happens when article 50 is triggered, then the clock starts ticking.

As you point out half the country are gong bananas and doing unproductive things like calling Leavers racist idiots. On the other hand, the referendum was advisory only and the result was relatively close (we'd be hearing the same thing if the figures were reversed). 17 million and change voted leave out of some 42 million voters. Only 16 million of those voted to stay but there is reasonable evidence that a large number of the non voters would have voted remain (if they could have got off their arses and voted). It isn't over until article 50 is triggered.

Exactly. It is by no means certain that article 50 is going to be triggered at all. People need to understand that we live in a representative democracy and not a direct democracy. If, on balance, things like they'd go extremely badly for us should be leave the EU then it is the absolute duty of our representatives to stop it from happening. Very few people involved in government actually wanted this to happen, including some who were campaigning to leave (Boris Johnson). This whole thing came about because of the machinations of the Tory party leadership, and now the welfare of millions of people hang in the balance because of it.

When you actually think about it this is worthy of any tinpot dictatorship out there.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Not an answer to what I said. But anyways: Do we live in the same world?

The UK is on the edge of breaking apart. And the EU already said that they're not going easy on them during the negotiations.

And who pees their pants by just thinking about it? Some sources would be nice.

Apparently you do not read the press. You forget the global campaign against the Brexit. Obama, the Chinese, the artists, the lobby of the press right-thinking, the scientists etc ... in short all those who have a place in the sun. They have all, peed in their pants by thinking of the Brexit. and now they do not seem so worried that this. All are going to protect the balance of the Western world. Do not worry about it. Look at "Easy jet" which will require a navigation certificate to the UE and will install its headquarters on the continent after the Brexit. The business will continue as before. There is a quotation which circulates a lot at the moment and which says : Before the Brexit, the UK had one foot inside, and one foot outside ... After the Brexit, the UK will have a foot outside, and one foot inside. Stop your catastrophism to frighten the simple minds, as the EU do it. It does not work.

 

[beelbeebub]

Here's an interesting article

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...as-europe-splits-deepen-over-brexit-response/

It appears there is a sizeable bloc, including Germany that is pro "loose Europe" as opposed to the pushing forward to a more united Europe.

this bloc would be the natural place for the UK, indeed with Germany, the UK and Poland on the same side it would be a very powerful block indeed.

If the UK could stay in this could be the start of the kind of EU the UK wants.

But, the UK is going to have to swallow it when it comes to freedom of movement.

Junker should go, he was pearly an idiot. He popped up several times during the referendum with unhelpful comments, when he should have kept his head down.

A real simple reform of the EU commission would be to rename it the EU civil service, and make the president and commissioners much quieter. The obvious subservience of the commission/civil service to the council and parliament would very much help with the image of the EU being "undemocratic".

 

[Patrick_68000]

Here's an interesting article

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...as-europe-splits-deepen-over-brexit-response/

It appears there is a sizeable bloc, including Germany that is pro "loose Europe" as opposed to the pushing forward to a more united Europe.

this bloc would be the natural place for the UK, indeed with Germany, the UK and Poland on the same side it would be a very powerful block indeed.

If the UK could stay in this could be the start of the kind of EU the UK wants.

But, the UK is going to have to swallow it when it comes to freedom of movement.

Junker should go, he was pearly an idiot. He popped up several times during the referendum with unhelpful comments, when he should have kept his head down.

A real simple reform of the EU commission would be to rename it the EU civil service, and make the president and commissioners much quieter. The obvious subservience of the commission/civil service to the council and parliament would very much help with the image of the EU being "undemocratic".

Very interesting article. And confirms that Juncker is a moron. And that the UK is a major actor in the Europe and for the world stability. No catastrophism for the Brexit, I repeat again !

 

[Adept]

Very interesting article. And confirms that Juncker is a moron. And that the UK is a major actor in the Europe and for the world stability. No catastrophism for the Brexit, I repeat again !

Care to guess how much of UK GDP comes from the finances and services industries? The ones that depend so vitally on trust and full access to the EU trade zone?

 

[Sunleader]

Here's an interesting article

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...as-europe-splits-deepen-over-brexit-response/

It appears there is a sizeable bloc, including Germany that is pro "loose Europe" as opposed to the pushing forward to a more united Europe.

this bloc would be the natural place for the UK, indeed with Germany, the UK and Poland on the same side it would be a very powerful block indeed.

If the UK could stay in this could be the start of the kind of EU the UK wants.

But, the UK is going to have to swallow it when it comes to freedom of movement.

Junker should go, he was pearly an idiot. He popped up several times during the referendum with unhelpful comments, when he should have kept his head down.

A real simple reform of the EU commission would be to rename it the EU civil service, and make the president and commissioners much quieter. The obvious subservience of the commission/civil service to the council and parliament would very much help with the image of the EU being "undemocratic".

i dont think you should Pay too much Heed to this Article.
The Telegraph is an UK Newspaper with deep Ties to the Conservative and Right Wing Parties in the UK. There is alot of Accusations Floating around about them being very Biased towards Sponsors and Political "Friends" which are (and thats been Proven actually) Paying quite Huge Sums to it.

I.ve also read alot of the Articles from it. And most of these are very Dodgy about the stuff they Claim and very often are very Biased towards an certain Side.

In this case for example.
The Article is clearly Attacking Juncker all over the Place.
They also make sure to keep everything very Vague except the Attacks on Juncker which are very Clear lol.
But aside from that they talk about "May be and Could be" They talk about Unknown Sources and about what someone might have said and what might happen.

They make an Interpretion of something thats not actually been said and assume stuff about Merkel and her Plans without actual Evidence.


The Article is clearly very Optimistic on UKs Chances in Negotiations. And is Supporting the Right Wing Claims there pretty Strongly. Basicly implying that Germany might Dictate Juncker out of his Office and in a Force March force the Remaining EU to give UK a Good Deal like the Right Wing Parties wants to have it.

And Sorry. But the Statements Merkel so far Made are Speaking an very Different Language.
Both Merkel and Schäuble have made very Clear. That Out means Out. And that the UK will not be given any Special Treatment.
Its true that Merkel Asks to be Pragmatic about this.

But Pragmatic means mostly Coolheaded. It means that UK should be Treated like the Smaller Third Party Country it is to the EU after Brexit.
Meaning if it wants to enter EU Trade etc etc. it will be Paying the Price by Admitting to all EU Regulations and Payments etc etc.


And Pro Loose Europe *gg* ?
Merkel ??? *gg*
The Leader which has been Fighting for Closer Europe for Years should suddenly be for a Loose Europe ? *gg*

Merkel is gathering Votes. Thats about all.
Merkels Stance on this was very Clear in one of her Speeches.


The EU must Communicate and Convey its Purposes to the People more.
It must Answer to the Peoples Worries. And the EU must be Able to Help and Fix Peoples Worries where the National Government is unable to do so.

Or to Translate this.
EU is not for a more Loose EU.
Merkel is for an EU which is allowed for more Education and Media about what the EU actually Does. (Which is by the way an fairly Logical Response given that most of the Brexit Success came from Misinformation and the UKs Government Failing to set things right)
And its for more Powers in Brussels which should become enabled to actually Step in on stuff like Brexit and the Leave Campaign Spreading Lies. Rather than being Forced to watch the National Government Failing there.

Does that Sound like an more Loose EU to you ?

 

[Adept]

Merkel is gathering Votes. Thats about all.
Merkels Stance on this was very Clear in one of her Speeches.

The EU must Communicate and Convey its Purposes to the People more.
It must Answer to the Peoples Worries. And the EU must be Able to Help and Fix Peoples Worries where the National Government is unable to do so.

Or to Translate this.
EU is not for a more Loose EU.
Merkel is for an EU which is allowed for more Education and Media about what the EU actually Does. (Which is by the way an fairly Logical Response given that most of the Brexit Success came from Misinformation and the UKs Government Failing to set things right)
And its for more Powers in Brussels which should become enabled to actually Step in on stuff like Brexit and the Leave Campaign Spreading Lies. Rather than being Forced to watch the National Government Failing there.

Does that Sound like an more Loose EU to you ?

It's a good plan too. The EU's biggest problem is that the citizens of the various member countries know rather little about what is being done by the MEPs.

 

[Sunleader]

It's a good plan too. The EU's biggest problem is that the citizens of the various member countries know rather little about what is being done by the MEPs.

Oh I agree on that.
But to begin with I am in absolute Favor of More EU and especially more Political Union.

And as I said above. Yes its an Great Idea because for a Fact alot of the Brexit Problem came from the UK Government Failing to Fight the Lying Campaign.
Even worse the Govenment tried to Alienate People from the EU to gain Votes while claiming they can bring it under Control.

So Countering this sort of thing by actually Informing People of things working in the EU. REGARDLESS of the Local Government being Embarassed about their own Lies. Is an very Good Idea to make the EU more Liked among the Populace.



Its just that Claiming that Merkel is in Favor of an More Loose EU. Is really really wrong xD
And I had to really go on that xD

 

[Becks]

Apparently you do not read the press. You forget the global campaign against the Brexit. Obama, the Chinese, the artists, the lobby of the press right-thinking, the scientists etc ... in short all those who have a place in the sun. They have all, peed in their pants by thinking of the Brexit. and now they do not seem so worried that this. All are going to protect the balance of the Western world. Do not worry about it. Look at "Easy jet" which will require a navigation certificate to the UE and will install its headquarters on the continent after the Brexit. The business will continue as before. There is a quotation which circulates a lot at the moment and which says : Before the Brexit, the UK had one foot inside, and one foot outside ... After the Brexit, the UK will have a foot outside, and one foot inside. Stop your catastrophism to frighten the simple minds, as the EU do it. It does not work.

Don't make me laugh. The global 'campaign' against the Brexit happened because the Brexit goes against the economic interests of those people which is a valid reason.

You misunderstand something here. The UK atm is a member even with its arms length relationship to the EU. As soon as article 50 is triggered and the two years are over, the UK is out.
Continuing foreign trade relations isn't "one foot inside and one foot outside" since the UK will have no actual power in the EU then. It has to abide every regulation the EU makes without having a voice.

The thing is that the UK couldn't stop trading with the EU since it's not self sufficient. The EU on the other Hand doesn't necessarily need to buy goods from the UK, especially not when they're not competitive anymore.

For your balance of the Western world thing:
The EU is far more important for the balance in the western world than a single member state of it. The UK included.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Care to guess how much of UK GDP comes from the finances and services industries? The ones that depend so vitally on trust and full access to the EU trade zone?

The European Union will continue to work with the UK. Do not doubt. UK will decrease 5 points the corporate tax, to make the country more attractive (like Ireland)

 

[Patrick_68000]

Don't make me laugh. The global 'campaign' against the Brexit happened because the Brexit goes against the economic interests of those people which is a valid reason.

You misunderstand something here. The UK atm is a member even with its arms length relationship to the EU. As soon as article 50 is triggered and the two years are over, the UK is out.
Continuing foreign trade relations isn't "one foot inside and one foot outside" since the UK will have no actual power in the EU then. It has to abide every regulation the EU makes without having a voice.

The thing is that the UK couldn't stop trading with the EU since it's not self sufficient. The EU on the other Hand doesn't necessarily need to buy goods from the UK, especially not when they're not competitive anymore.

For your balance of the Western world thing:
The EU is far more important for the balance in the western world than a single member state of it. The UK included.

Many experts and commentators, of political and economic in France, does not see the things exactly like you. And concerning the geopolitical balance, remember that the UK is an important et special ally of the United States and the European continent. And do not forget the British secret services and the nuclear bomb.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Care to guess how much of UK GDP comes from the finances and services industries? The ones that depend so vitally on trust and full access to the EU trade zone?

French economists yesterday on the tv said the British economies and the European Union are so intertwined that it is impossible to imagine of serious consequences for the two

 

[charlieinthetree]

Maybe it's like any new thing...we'll say how awful it is but after 5 or so years, will forget what it used to be like. But still...they never should have left the EU.

 

[Adept]

The European Union will continue to work with the UK. Do not doubt. UK will decrease 5 points the corporate tax, to make the country more attractive (like Ireland)

The answer is 80%. They are very literally putting their whole economy at risk. You don't care because you have decided that EU is the devil and like the desciples of Gove you seem to "distrust the experts".

I'm not really debating you in the hopes of making you reconsider, this is for the benefit of the others. I think you are too set in your ways to reach.

 

[Javert]

Only 16 million of those voted to stay but there is reasonable evidence that a large number of the non voters would have voted remain (if they could have got off their arses and voted). It isn't over until article 50 is triggered.

Hi Beelbeebug, your posts always seem well considered and balanced to me.

One question though. Do you have a source or backup for stating the quote above? I hope you are right but I haven't seen solid evidence on that yet.

 

[Andy Kappa]

Stop me if you've heard this one before...

Farage stepping down...again...

 

[Surfinjo]

Stop me if you've heard this one before...

Farage stepping down...again...

Things haven't been this exciting since someone shot JR!

 

[Adept]

Stop me if you've heard this one before...

Farage stepping down...again...

I was just going to link that from the Guardian. I'm not surprised. Farage is an absolute tool who's got nothing to offer. He's probably terrified about having to actually govern and to face the consequences of his actions.

 

[ianw]

Him getting out of the way now is probably in everyone's best interests.