Elite Babysitter...

[Susimetsa]

But this is a game and in game there's competition and in competition there are winners and losers. It feels like we're trying to make this 'everyone's a winner'. I grew up learning to win and lose. And dealing with people who bother me and taking care of my own schnazz. I don't need to be hand-held. Some of the best and greatest moments of my gaming career are when someone has made me mad as hell. And I dealt with it myself.

Sounds like you've been trained to take care of yourself, which is a good thing when not taken to extremes. As a teaching professional I have to point out, however, that we are these days focussed on teaching children to cooperate and collaborate - they are taught that "we are all in this together".

Or, if interpreted from the point of view of power games (which is certainly not the intention of the education system): It's not holding hands - it's being good to others, so that they will not kill you when you turn your back to them...

Also, there are a lot of cooperative and collaborative games: just take a look at role-playing games etc.

 

[Ixnatifual]

I personally don't think a pirate counts in this. A pirate is a valid game mechanic and should be not blocked so easily, a cheater or griefer is not IMO.

As I understand the current grouping system, it precludes anyone not in the group. So you never meet anybody but NPCs unless you invited them to your group. The system doesn't care if it's a pirate, a griefer, a friendly merchantman or Jean-Luc Picard.

 

[warbaby2]

Also, there are a lot of cooperative and collaborative games: just take a look at role-playing games etc.

Learning to be kind, fair and favouring coopration over blind competition is hardly the same as "pempering"... I know the educational system didn't always get that right in the last decades, but they are getting there.

Learning to deal with winning/defeat is important, but learning when to better NOT compete is too...

 

[Robert Maynard]

So would you actually prefer an official PvE group to the ultra-sanitised PvP group you're arguing for?

No. More a persistent private group of players who play the game in accordance with game lore, not like COD. It would allow PvP, of course, as magical weapon locks or lasers that don't do damage simply because the other ship is a player are rather distracting / annoying. That probably won't happen in the All Group. The option should be there, however, for players who have their enjoyment of the game spoiled by other players interpretation of how the game should be played.

The "play the game how you want to" instruction applies to us all equally.

 

[Thorn Black]

Learning to deal with winning/defeat is important, but learning when to better NOT compete is too...

Only Young and those with wish to die rush first into battle, wise and older warriors with many scars wait for propper glimpse in ememys deffences.

 

[hunvagy]

Learning to be kind, fair and favouring coopration over blind competition is hardly the same as "pempering"... I know the educational system didn't always get that right in the last decades, but they are getting there.

Learning to deal with winning/defeat is important, but learning when to better NOT compete is too...

Sadly putting multiplayer anywhere near the title of the game lately seems to evoke the Pavlovlian reflexes of:

- Competitive play or bust
- We needz0rz dedicated servers, because hack/cheat
- Need ladder, because my e-peen
- PvP purists take up arms
- PvE purists take up arms
- how dare you mod the game you fiend!
- Dev makes game too easy/eazymode yuck
- Dev makes game too hard/why doesn't anyone care for the casuals

This is not a complete list, but seen it happen in quite a few game forums. And I always feel that the optimal way, which is letting the devs decide what they want in THEIR game somehow drowns to the complaints and entitled demands disguised as requests.

So no, people definitely don't want to learn to accept defeat, and that not every game is a competition.

 

[warbaby2]

So no, people definitely don't want to learn to accept defeat, and that not every game is a competition.

I know, I know... still, I'm willing to see what FDs solution to it will be... best thing in my opinion, would be to neither listen to one group or the other and just make the games systems work in it's own context.

 

[Luniticisi]

Before I add my view into the pot .... I want to point out, that in any mmo I have played I have actively avoided PvP as it always seemed that everyone was better than me at it (Which they clearly were) so not a fan of PvP in mmo's.

That being said, Am I missing something here? Elite has always been a "Do what you want, When you want" game. In my view there should be NO restrictions of gameplay, of any kind, in this game.

The game should and probably will self police itself, much like the older versions, if you break the law in the game it will have consequences.

If I want to trade safely then I should stick to safe systems, yes someone might come along and attack me for "Fun" that is their choice, I should of been more aware of my surroundings and been ready for flight or fight. space is a Dangerous place... see what I did there

If I want to be the person attacking people for "Fun" then I had better be prepared for what is heading my way (Bounty hunters/police) but I should be able to do it.

Make the Police in the game, hardcore - as in "Don't mess with the police, they'll ____ you up!" and let people play the game in anyway they see fit.

that's my view anyway .... good day

Doesn't include cheating though

 

[hunvagy]

I know, I know... still, I'm willing to see what FDs solution to it will be... best thing in my opinion, would be to neither listen to one group or the other and just make the games systems work in it's own context.

Hopefully that's exactly what we're going to see. I liked the DDF Archives a lot, the systems made sense. Here's hoping it doesn't get skewed much in favor of either way. Anyway, I just want friday to come, and finally taking my seat in a Sidewinder, so I can smear on the station wall in my first failed attempt at landing the fickle little thing

 

[Susimetsa]

Learning to be kind, fair and favouring coopration over blind competition is hardly the same as "pempering"... I know the educational system didn't always get that right in the last decades, but they are getting there.

Learning to deal with winning/defeat is important, but learning when to better NOT compete is too...

I agree completely and I think that was my point. I don't think I said it was "pampering"? :S

 

[Gibbonici]

I know, I know... still, I'm willing to see what FDs solution to it will be... best thing in my opinion, would be to neither listen to one group or the other and just make the games systems work in it's own context.

Indeed. Try out a variety of systems and settle on the solution that strikes the best balance between CoD in spaceships and just another Private Group mode.

We can go over and over this subject throwing out argument winning scenarios, but until the whole game is there to be tested, it's pure guesswork based on prejudice.

Until we know what works, we won't know what will work.

 

[popuptoaster]

Even people who paid £200 (or more) are prepared to grief in the alpha test so I think the game needs as much protection from them as possible when it goes live.

They may only be a small percentage but there are plenty of people who delight in annoying others when there are no consequences.

It's fine to talk about being able to look after yourself, I'm 6'6 and have done everything from security work to prison time.

You better believe out in the real world I get little grief from anyone, that does not, however help me in game if some 12 year old with a much better ship load out works out how to constantly kill me as I launch from a planet or whatever.

 

[Herik]

Ahh... wstephenson; (I am so relieved) there's forum members being proactive in developing griefing policing measures.... Hopefully the same kind of proactiveness will develop regarding the in game economy; the money scripting and potential 'gold seller' market. ALso as a previous Eve player for several years; I know what you say is incorrect. The Griefing in Eve in one way or another, is what Eve's all about. It's great having having 'this angst' at this time.

 

[warbaby2]

I agree completely and I think that was my point. I don't think I said it was "pampering"? :S

Ok, "baby sitting" then... and I know it wasn't you who "said" it.

 

[ElGuappo]

Read the thread and kudos to all. This is a contentious subject that usually ends up heated but this has been an interesting and well balanced discussion.

I'm ambivalent about the whole thing until I see more of the game (alpha 1.1 here) and how the existing mechanics of PvP and the like work in a larger environment.

I don't much care for what I think is waiting for me, though. It seems awfully... fudgy, a solution by committee. Looking forward to finding out, though

 

[warbaby2]

Also: Grrr Goons!

...sorry, had to do it.

 

[Togg]

I normally refuse to get drawn into these kinds of threads, mostly because my of my temperament.

I will make one observation about a group of people whose opinion differs
from mine. there is single player offline (100% safe from PvP) , Single Player
Online (100% safe from PvP) Group Online Play (100% Safe from PvP) and All
Group ... of these categories .. only one is available to the PvP Pirate. and you
guys are making it so its a non-starter by demanding the option to place them
on Ignore so you don't have to deal with them. that to me is the very
definition of hypocrisy, because once the Pirate is on the ignore list, he'll never
see you again and his style of game play is virtually destroyed.


Once the Pirate has no prey, he'll leave the game. and I know to most out
there, you wouldn't mind that one bit. but once the Pirate is gone... who does
the PvP Oriented Bounty Hunter chase? no one, so with out prey, he too leaves
the game. also, without the Pirate, there is no need to hire the PvP Oriented
Mercenary , because a small 5 man group of merchants in 3 Lakons and 2
Anacondas will decimate any NPC Interdiction group. so without Prey, the Merc
leaves the Game. The PvP oriented Assassin, well he was gone just as soon as
the Pirate was. so.. what does that leave us? Miners, Traders and those that
like to farm NPCs. to some of you, you would be perfectly happy with that,
EXCEPT for that little part of you having been instrumental in driving away
a large portion of players with your DEMANDS that you have it YOUR WAY!

 

[jabokai]

No. More a persistent private group of players who play the game in accordance with game lore, not like COD. It would allow PvP, of course, as magical weapon locks or lasers that don't do damage simply because the other ship is a player are rather distracting / annoying. That probably won't happen in the All Group. The option should be there, however, for players who have their enjoyment of the game spoiled by other players interpretation of how the game should be played.

The "play the game how you want to" instruction applies to us all equally.

No need to use the pejorative "magical" - we already have friendly fire systems today and it's an easy technical, and story, explanation (Pilot's Federation members all have these systems installed as a requirement of membership).

So what you want, in effect, is an RP-PvP group. I have no issues with that and would probably play in it myself (if it wasn't for this bloody on/off ident thing).

I know people talk about splintering the playerbase all the time, and I get the concerns, but it does seem that with the splintering that will happen to private groups and solo play anyway it might not be a bad idea to revisit the major groups as a whole. Personally, I would have...

Ironman - as is, but NO switching to subgroups or solo play. You're in the main group all the time.
Normal - The current "all" group. PvP anywhere, anytime, but with reasonable consequences. Psychopaths may exist!
PvE - No friendly fire (as above).
RP - As Normal but with a mechanism for removing ats.

No need for RP-PVE IMHO, it's an over-splinterfication (yeah that's a word... now!)

And I'd get rid of the magical PC/NPC ident service completely, or have it as an option when private groups are created.

 

[Stachel]

You think some of my drunk posting is bad? Strewth.

On one side we have the tub thumpers in their tragic comic masks (seemingly interchangeable) who never grow tired of myopically anti-trolling about this aspect of the game. On the other their target audience, in the guise of swivel-eyed loons (seemingly interchangeable), bleating back without any insight or relevant experience (PTSD is not relevant experience lol). I seem to find myself missing the Kickstarter clique of touchy feely rich old men! Where did they go?? The private backer's forum, presumably? Maybe just for a stiff drink and an early night ~18 months ago.

Now it seems we the un-fancied, un-moneyed proletariat droppings are left at the mercy of a bunch of professional forum warriors. Stoically enduring an uncomfortable coexistence of disparate or antagonistic elements grinding out their respective paranoid delusions like an intact pit bull molesting a pouf.

The same hackneyed regurgitated agendas relentlessly spawned afresh across 400, 000, 000, 000 threads of non-representative titles. 2% engage with forums typically. Let's be generous and say 10%. You know why, right? I think you do ..

I can only hope the Super Born-Elite Special Squad private forums are full of gripping well structured argument and reasoned experienced views. If not, we're all going to get the game you deserve.

 

[Thorn Black]

I normally refuse to get drawn into these kinds of threads, mostly because my of my temperament.

I will make one observation about a group of people whose opinion differs
from mine. there is single player offline (100% safe from PvP) , Single Player
Online (100% safe from PvP) Group Online Play (100% Safe from PvP) and All
Group ... of these categories .. only one is available to the PvP Pirate. and you
guys are making it so its a non-starter by demanding the option to place them
on Ignore so you don't have to deal with them. that to me is the very
definition of hypocrisy, because once the Pirate is on the ignore list, he'll never
see you again and his style of game play is virtually destroyed.


Once the Pirate has no prey, he'll leave the game. and I know to most out
there, you wouldn't mind that one bit. but once the Pirate is gone... who does
the PvP Oriented Bounty Hunter chase? no one, so with out prey, he too leaves
the game. also, without the Pirate, there is no need to hire the PvP Oriented
Mercenary , because a small 5 man group of merchants in 3 Lakons and 2
Anacondas will decimate any NPC Interdiction group. so without Prey, the Merc
leaves the Game. The PvP oriented Assassin, well he was gone just as soon as
the Pirate was. so.. what does that leave us? Miners, Traders and those that
like to farm NPCs. to some of you, you would be perfectly happy with that,
EXCEPT for that little part of you having been instrumental in driving away
a large portion of players with your DEMANDS that you have it YOUR WAY!

I have that special bottle of rum especially for You, we can enjoy it somwhere in anarchic system, in that special dark corner of universe where man laws do not interferre our drinking