General / Off-Topic Coup currently taking place in Turkey !

[Sunleader]

And you're pretty naive if you believe that Merkels comment has had any influence on this mess.

Agreed.

1.
The Comment was Made by Merkel after the Refugees already came in Masses. Merkel was Asked by Reporters how she planned to deal with this because there were so incredible much People coming.
Which Merkel Answered by the Affirmation that she will stay True to the Humanity Laws that Germany as well as the other EU Countries Signed and will Grant Refuge to those that need it.


2.
The Comment itself is fairly Unknown to most Refugees which come to Europe of course People heard alot of hearsay about it. But most of them only Learn after Arriving in Europe that this comment was Made. And many also decide to go for Germany by this. AFTER they already Arrived in Europe.
Actually I would daresay that less than Half of the People in this Topic would actually be able to Post the actual Comment of Merkel if they were asked with less than 5 minutes to scram it out from Google

By now as Funny as it Sounds. The main Reason Refugees THINK that Merkel called to them to come to Germany. Is the Right Wing Propaganda which is doing everything to Spread this View.
Including Faked Fliers and other Faked Statements and Advertising for it.


3.
And Finally there is the thing about Impact.
People dont decide to just give up their entire Possessions and then on Top Risk their Life to Travel a 1000 Miles based on someone Saying that he will stand true to the Agreed Laws and Grant Refuge to those who had to Flee their Homes.





On a more Topic Relevant note.
Turkey is going completely into Dictatorship Mode now.

All Academics are Prohibited from Leaving the Country. To prevent Sheming Traitors from Fleeing.
I had to Laugh at this one.
I mean hey Erdogan is pretty right on this one. If I was Erdogan. I would also Fear that anyone who has something remotely resembling Intelligence is my Enemy and wants to get me Removed *gg*

 

[Minonian]

By now as Funny as it Sounds. The main Reason Refugees THINK that Merkel called to them to come to Germany.

And because they think they will come. Merkel does not actually need to call all of them, it's enough if they think. And what she said is far more than enough to this. You don't need too much to make someone belíve who wants to belíve.

And Finally there is the thing about Impact.
People dont decide to just give up their entire Possessions and then on Top Risk their Life to Travel a 1000 Miles based on someone Saying that he will stand true to the Agreed Laws and Grant Refuge to those who had to Flee their Homes.

Are you sure about that? The same going inside In the Eu too! Inside population migration, because of work? Or outside immigration? Makes no difference! trust me! People do sell their possessions and move on to another country, in hope of better life. In Hungary 100 thousands done this. Or just think it over how the USA given birth...

 

[Minonian]

That doesn't answer my question. If you had your way, what would be done about the refugees? It is the question Europe needs to answer. The voices calling for inhuman treatment have gotten stronger. Some celebrate the pictures of drowned children, or claim it's all propaganda and fake pictures. People attack assylum centres and dark skinned people in the streets.

Clearly some think our borders should be utterly closed to refugees. You didn't seem to like that suggestion. What do you think we should do? When a boat of desperate people are in the Med heading for Europe, what should be done?

Oh the drowned children, and poor refugees whom life is in danger! Right! I already cleared this out. They are not placed in danger, by nature or someone else. They are placed themselves in danger with the crossing. The responsibility is not ours, they are responsible for their own situation. So please cut the bleeding heart crap i'm not buying it!

In the matter of fact? they are very much counting to our humanity, and know we must save them, after all to let them drown in the sea is evil.
Yes! It's evil when you let someone die by accident what's not his responsibility. But when he is consciously creating a situation like this? Than he abusing your good will, just like they knowingly abusing the seafaring law, to their advantage, because thx for the smugglers they know we must take them in to our port, and can't direct them back to where they came from!
What's going on the seas, in many aspects is just like the good old fashioned highway robbery, when someone playing the hitchhiker, simulating his car broken down, or suffered an accident.
Get it what i meant?

So excuse me! But i don't give a damn about their made up poor lost soul crap!
And to be entirely honest? I turn them back, and if it's necessary i change the seafaring law, to make it possible, or create a new paragraph to cases like this, because they are intentionally abusing the seafaring law to get what they want!, and get to the shores of EU!

Want to help them? End the goddamn war, create real refugee camps instead of reception, because all of this is just an act of compensation, and did not resolves the real issues!

 

[Sunleader]

And because they think they will come. Merkel does not actually need to call all of them, it's enough if they think. And what she said is far more than enough to this. You don't need too much to make someone belíve who wants to belíve.


Are you sure about that? The same going inside In the Eu too! Inside population migration, because of work? Or outside immigration? Makes no difference! trust me! People do sell their possessions and move on to another country, in hope of better life. In Hungary 100 thousands done this. Or just think it over how the USA given birth...

Problem is. That this sort of Advertising happened before Merkel said anything.
No Offense but these Fliers saying "Good Life in Europe" have been around for Years before Merkel said anything on it



Also. Nope Mate. No Offence but they dont.
Inside the EU they take their stuff along. They dont give up their Lifes and Pay Thousands of Dollars to some Criminal to Ship them over with nothing but an Backpack

To begin with People moving inside the EU is not that much either. Even Developed Countries like UK got only 50% Immigrants of the EU. And Joke is alot of this Immigration was already the case BEFORE UK became an EU Member


As an Sidenote. It will actually stay fairly High even if UK leaves the EU and drops the Single Market. Because lets get a Fact straight here.
Do you Seriously Believe that the Immigration Laws under which Chinese and Indian People are Imigrating to the UK would stop People from the remaining EU to come to the UK if they wanted ?
The only additional Hurdle the UK gets from it. Is that Immigrating there is more Paperwork

 

[Minonian]

Problem is. That this sort of Advertising happened before Merkel said anything.

And this is the last thing what you need. Because? It does not matter, when or how? What Merkel did, it only worsened the situation, added one more reason.
And for my part? Keep talking like that keep saying merkel done nothing wrong, not his fault. that's also does not matter. You know why? because the voters already placed a price tag to merkel and her actions,. and they saying she must go.

End of the discussion.
Reality - logic 1-0
because you know what's the damn thing about logic? If its not in harmony with reality? It's worthless. But by all means! Keep creating sound reasons and feel yourself winner in the debate. In the end reality knocks out all of it, and proves wrong.

And no i don't feel i need to debate with you or Becks. because i don't have to! Time and facts are working for me.

 

[Adept]

So the coast guard stops a ship full of people trying to get to Europe. What do we do? Where do we return them? They are not all from the same country, and some or all will be from war torn places where they have a credible reason to fear for their lives. Some will be Christian, Jesid or the wrong sect of Islam. Some are gay or lesbian or atheist and fleeing death threats.

What is the concrete step you take? We need to process their cases individually and on their own merit. Donyou propose shipping them on some island on an internment camp and keeping them there? Real European values that. How long? Is it like Quantanamo, do they get to leave? Which country will take them?

Are you happy to send an Iraqi teenager back to his or her home country after their relatives have pooled money to get them to safety? You realise if we send them back, some of them will die. If we stick them in camps they will waste their lives in an open prison with no education and no prospects.

You seem to want easy answers, and have very selfish views about "them" coming "over here". I'd like to hear how you actually would handle it. Remember, human rights are universal. Either they apply to everybody or nobody. Do these people's lives not matter?

Oh the drowned children, and poor refugees whom life is in danger! Right! I already cleared this out. They are not placed in danger, by nature or someone else. They are placed themselves in danger with the crossing. The responsibility is not ours, they are responsible for their own situation. So please cut the bleeding heart crap i'm not buying it!

In the matter of fact? they are very much counting to our humanity, and know we must save them, after all to let them drown in the sea is evil.
Yes! It's evil when you let someone die by accident what's not his responsibility. But when he is consciously creating a situation like this? Than he abusing your good will, just like they knowingly abusing the seafaring law, to their advantage, because thx for the smugglers they know we must take them in to our port, and can't direct them back to where they came from!
What's going on the seas, in many aspects is just like the good old fashioned highway robbery, when someone playing the hitchhiker, simulating his car broken down, or suffered an accident.
Get it what i meant?

So excuse me! But i don't give a damn about their made up poor lost soul crap!
And to be entirely honest? I turn them back, and if it's necessary i change the seafaring law, to make it possible, or create a new paragraph to cases like this, because they are intentionally abusing the seafaring law to get what they want!, and get to the shores of EU!

Want to help them? End the goddamn war, create real refugee camps instead of reception, because all of this is just an act of compensation, and did not resolves the real issues!

 

[Sunleader]

And this is the last thing what you need. Because? It does not matter, when or how? What Merkel did, it only worsened the situation, added one more reason.
And for my part? Keep talking like that keep saying merkel done nothing wrong, not his fault. that's also does not matter. You know why? because the voters already placed a price tag to merkel and her actions,. and they saying she must go.

End of the discussion.
Reality - logic 1-0
because you know what's the damn thing about logic? If its not in harmony with reality? It's worthless. But by all means! Keep creating sound reasons and feel yourself winner in the debate. In the end reality knocks out all of it, and proves wrong.

And no i don't feel i need to debate with you or Becks. because i don't have to! Time and facts are working for me.

Yep Reality 1 to 0 against Empty Accusations and Precautions

Because Fact is that the Refugees already Came in Masses BEFORE Merkel said anything
So unless you claim it was somehow send Back in time Merkel was not the one who is at fault for this

 

[Minonian]

What is the concrete step you take? We need to process their cases individually and on their own merit.

Yeah this is what we must do. The problem? Too many of them to do this.

Do you propose shipping them on some island on an internment camp

Refugee camps are not interment camps. Whenever they are open, or closed? Different reason, different goal, different outcome they are just not the same thing!

Are you happy to send an Iraqi teenager back to his or her home country after their relatives have pooled money to get them to safety? You realise if we send them back, some of them will die. If we stick them in camps they will waste their lives in an open prison with no education and no prospects.

Happy? No... Unhappy? neither. The thing is the problems of the whole world is not yours to take, deal with it. Only as much you can handle / want to handle. And honestly? this is too much to us to handle without negative impact in us.

Waste their life? Well, at least they have something to waste, after all they reached their goal and saved their own skin.

No education, no prospect? I think you mistake a camp with a school, or workplace. And a humanitarian aid, with permanent residence permit. The goal is not to give them paradise, but to save their lives, and keep them healthy everything else above this is just a cherry on the top.

Prison? One more time! refugee camps Are not prisons. They are exists to provide them shelter, and food, not to keep them imprisoned.

You seem to want easy answers, and have very selfish views about "them" coming "over here". I'd like to hear how you actually would handle it. Remember, human rights are universal. Either they apply to everybody or nobody. Do these people's lives not matter?

Then i'm selfish. What's for a degree is a natural thing. Once again, although i hate to repeat myself; (at least for too many times)

The thing is the problems of the whole world is not yours to take, deal with it. Only as much you can handle / want to handle. And honestly? This is too much to us to handle without negative impact in us.

And absolutely NO ONE!!! Can wait for you to cripple yourself in the process of helping other, Or i the matter of fact make someone else rich, at the cost you remain poor. That's my friend? It cannot be an obligation! If you do it voluntarily? Than you deserve respect! If not? You don't deserve despise.

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Because Fact is that the Refugees already Came in Masses BEFORE Merkel said anything

I already answered this. The fact refugees come before merkel said anything does not means her worlds not caused an increased number of refugees.

 

[Sunleader]

I already answered this. The fact refugees come before merkel said anything does not means her worlds not caused an increased number of refugees.

Unfortunately thats not a Fact.
To be Accurate. Its False.

The Fastest Growth of Refugees was in 2013-2014. In 2015 the Refugee Wave then reached its Peak.
Then in Summer 2015 Merkel made the Statement People talk about.

Just too Bad at this Point the Growth of Refugee Waves had already been Shrinking.
And while Propaganda was putting the Blame on Merkel. In the Backround the Growth had Reversed. And the Numbers of Refugees coming each Month started to Shrink already.



So I am sorry. But Merkels Statement has not increased anything
For a Fact the Refugee per Month Numbers. Which had been Raising Rapidly in 2014 and early 2015 were Raising Slower than before.
They still were Growing of course. Until the End of the Year when the Trend Reversed and the Numbers began to Shrink again

So nope. Merkels Words did not make anything worse.
To be Precise they had no Effect Whatsoever
Except of course you want to Claim that they were the reason that the Refugee Numbers Slowed their Growth and Reverted a few Months later

 

[Minonian]

The Fastest Growth of Refugees was in 2013-2014. In 2015 the Refugee Wave then reached its Peak.
Then in Summer 2015 Merkel made the Statement People talk about.

Just too Bad at this Point the Growth of Refugee Waves had already been Shrinking.

The reasons are different. They are shrinking because some months after merkel said this and we had an increased influx especially in germany, the refugee policy started to change, and some EU countries made a lot of preemtive measures. You just mixing the facts and timetable.

 

[Sunleader]

The reasons are different. They are shrinking because some months after merkel said this and we had an increased influx especially in germany, the refugee policy started to change, and some EU countries made a lot of preemtive measures. You just mixing the facts and timetable.

I never said anything of the Sort.
Read Right.

I merely made Clear that the Biggest Growth of Refugee Numbers was BEFORE Merkel made the Statement.
Meaning that Merkels Statement had nothing to do with it.

After Merkels Statement the Growth receeded and finally reversed.
This was of course not due to Merkels Statements and I never claimed that.

It was due to the Policy Changes as you Correctly Point out

However. And thats the Fact that Matters.
The Refugee Numbers did NOT RISE after Merkels Statement.
Meaning that the Statement had no Effect

 

[Minonian]

I never said anything of the Sort.
Meaning that Merkels Statement had nothing to do with it.

Than why after her statement received Germany an increased influx? We are not talking about the whole Eu we are talking about Germany.

After Merkels Statement the Growth receeded and finally reversed.

Because the closing of the borders.

 

[Sunleader]

Than why after her statement received Germany an increased influx? We are not talking about the whole Eu we are talking about Germany.

Because the closing of the borders.

Well this is not really right either.
Germany is the Strongest and Biggest Country in Europe. So its Natural that most Refugees would Aim to go for Germany.
And Germany during the entire Time had the highest Influx of Refugees. This did not Raise after Merkels Statement.

It did Raise at the End of the Year however.
But now Think about that for a Minute
What did all the Surrounding Countries do at this Time ?
You already said it
They closed their Borders and Refused to Accept any more Refugees. *gg*
So now heres the Price Question.
What happened to these Refugees which were already in Europe but were refused Entry by most other Countries.

Did they A, Choose to Head back Home.
Did they B, Choose to Go to the Countries still Accepting Refugees at this time.
Or did they C, Evaporate into Hot Air


I think we all know the Answer.

The Reason that Germany got an Increased Influx by the End of the Year was because the other Countries closed their Borders or only Allowed Passage but not Refuge.
Sweden as well as other Countries still accepting Refugees at this Time had the same Phenomenom.
Which is Logical. Because if there is a Country which has not Closed its Borders and the other Countries did.
The Refugees will go the Way of the least Resistance and go for this Country.


As an sidenote.
The Decrease of Refugee Numbers is not due to Closing the Borders. But Simply Stems from 2 other Reasons.

1.
The Situation in Syria has Calmed a bit and ISIS is losing Ground which at the same Increases the Safe Areas again.
This is mostly thanks to Russia Intervening in the Conflict.

2.
The Deal with Turkey is holding Tons of Refugees out of the Country.
Because unlike what most People claim.
This Deal is not a 1 to 1 Exchange.

Turkey is allowed to give back 1 Refugee for each Refugee that Passed the Border to Greece Illegally.
But Part of this Deal is also that Turkey Stops Refugees at the Border. Meaning that even if Turkey would Fail to Stop 50% of the Refugees they would still take care of Twice as Many Refugees as the EU has to Take back.

Moreover this Deal in itself is giving an Incentive to Refugees to not come to the EU but Stay in Turkey.
Because the Message behind this is Reading very Clearly.

Stay in Turkey and you have the Chance to Legally Enter the EU.
Try to get over the Border Illegally and you will be Send back to Turkey even if you somehow make it over the Border.



In Politics you have to Read between the Lines.
Its not something as Obvious and Simple as most People think

 

[Minonian]

They are closed the borders because of the increased numbers, and they are dropped after this.

 

[Sunleader]

They are closed the borders because of the increased numbers, and they are dropped after this.

Sigh. No they Didnt.
The Numbers Dropped because of the Deal with Turkey

Also the Growth Slowed before they closed the Borders. So its unlikely that closing the Borders had any Bigger Effect.
It merely put Greece under Insane Pressure because they all stayed in Greece and Italy with the Borders Closed.

 

[Patrick_68000]

What would you guys want? Fortress Europe with locked down borders? When refugees from Syria, iraq or Afghanistan try to flee here their boats are sunk by our navies?

A gay or lesbian person fleeing for their life? Let them drown. A family trying to get their children to safety? Not our problem?

Is that really what you want?

And you're pretty naive if you believe that Merkels comment has had any influence on this mess.

Really idealists, these commanders. I prefer to laugh

 

[Patrick_68000]

When a boat of desperate people are in the Med heading for Europe, what should be done?

This is completely false. There is indeed of desperate families but there are also tens of thousands of young single men in very healthy, well fed, with sunglasses, smartphone etc ... No despair among those there, in the pictures that I have seen. Your naiveté is disconcerting. Desperate family ? Wake up !

 

[Adept]

this is too much to us to handle without negative impact in us.

Does "negative impact on us" mean any cost is too much? There is a large cost to be paid in turning our societies cold and selfish as well, and hardening our hearts to people in need.

The cost / capita is not that much. Europe is wealthy and if we do this well we can not only bear it but even benefit from it. A lot of those people are in prime working life. They want to work and be educated. Even when some / most of them return home when things make sense we benefit from them taking European ideals and traditions with them, as well as having goodwill towards us when their countries get back to their feet.

The selfish view is a short sighted view. I know we can't solve on all the problems in Africa and the Middle East but we should try. The loudest and most selfish voices come from the Eastern Europe where there are only a handful of refugees and migrants anyway. That is not right, nor something I can support.

 

[Minonian]

Once again, wrong timetable.

The deal with turkey came after the borders closed. For this drop both was necessary.

Your fallacy of reason is false effect / cause

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Edit; In a chain of events all parts are necessary to get the outcome so your fallacy is also the slippery slope.

 

[Adept]

Really idealists, these commanders. I prefer to laugh

Answer my question then. What should we do? If you were formulating policy, what would be the rules? We can then look at what the consequences of that would be.

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This is completely false. There is indeed of desperate families but there are also tens of thousands of young single men in very healthy, well fed, with sunglasses, smartphone etc ... No despair among those there, in the pictures that I have seen. Your naiveté is disconcerting. Desperate family ? Wake up !

"completely false" you say. I asked what should be done when a boat of desperate people arrive. People who aren't desperate won't risk drowning in the med in one of those death traps. You acknowledged at at least some of them truly are desperate. What should be done with them. Enough of your dodges, tell me what you would want done.

And btw, not actually starving and owning a phone doesn't mean somebody isn't in desperate trouble. If you lost everything and had to flee to another country, fearing for your life, I think you wouldn't look starving and you'd also arrive with a phone. These people are coming from war torn countries, not the Middle Ages you know.