If only FD gave us something to counter gimballed weapons and missiles...
Please further nerf thermal cascade
- Thread starter Protein Carrot
- Start date
If only FD gave us something to counter gimballed weapons and missiles...
I know what you're saying but the heat meta works in such a way that it isn't effective/possible to try and counter gimbals or missiles directly because you don't have the utility slots to do so. Let's say you have 4 utility slots.. Packing anything less than 3 heat sinks is complete suicide because the other person is very likely to have dumb fires/pack hounds or fixed heat weaponry (all of which can't effectively be countered except by maneuvering). Since you absolutely *have* to spam heat sinks, chaff, point defense and ECM become pointless. Absolutely nobody is running with PD/ECM right now.. they can't afford to. Especially since the likes of PD isn't effective against a barrage unless you're running with 3/4 of them..
In a PVP world where no-one can afford to carry chaff/PD/ECM, it means that PVP can be reduced to the lowest common skill denominator.. Which is why we see cutters with 7 seeker racks floating about..
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digitalscream
Banned
Yes, and surface-mounted utility modules are the first things to die when you get hit with thermal weapons.
Can you use a AFMU to repair them?
digitalscream
Banned
...in the middle of a fight, and faster than thermal weapons eat your ship from the inside?
Yes, what digitialscream said.. you can.. (people used to do this with their canopy in the old SR meta) but you'd only be able to run away while you did it or you'd die.. That makes it an option only available to Clippers and the like..
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Note: I havent done any pvp in 2.1. But if the enemy runs 7 heatseekers, cant you just ECM them? Two ECM modules can basically perma-block all missiles incoming, making that cutter pretty pointless in theory. FdL or Corvettes than still have loads of utilities left.
Why was silent running nerfed again?
Yes you could.. if you knew in advance you were going to face that guy and only that guy.. But you have to build your ship in such a way that you stand a chance against the majority of threats you face, and that means you can't carry ECM.
Combat got silly when they introduced SCB's. People fighting for 20-30 minutes just got into the realms of stupid. A fight shouldn't be more than a few minutes and should be more like CQC and we know they're still not done messing with combat. How long after you "release" a game but keep massively changing it can you even say you released it.
ED is still an alpha and early access at best since they're constantly changing things and can't make up their minds what they're doing. Maybe they could give us a roadmap of where they want to take combat - that would be a really good start but they won't because I doubt they even know what they're doing right now.
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That vision would be fine if they told us where it's going to end up and what they want to achieve. At least then we could say, "oh yeah, the end result sounds pretty cool actually"
I dont think that argument holds up very well when the premise of this topic is that everyone and their dog uses heat cascade, with missiles being so prevalent. If that isnt the case, and this situation is very rare, then I dont see what the practical problem is: you chose not to have any missile defences, and in return you are in trouble when you face a ship carrying loads of missiles. If a ship with no missile defences would not be scared by such missile-boats, what the point of having missiles in the game?
Btw, anyone knows if ECM works against missiles aimed at anyone in your wing? If so, that would give room for a 'support ship' blasting ECM non-stop, creating a safe-zone for the other wingmembers.
digitalscream
Banned
I disagree, kinda - some of the best, most fun PvP fights I've had have been 10 - 20 minute epics. However, that can still happen even if neither player has SCBs (I certainly don't carry them).
If you want fights to be short, then thermals are perfect for you. Almost no fight lasts more than a minute or so, unless one player has a build specifically designed to counter the other player's loadout.
I have another question.
Who in Beta testing raised this Eng expansion as an issue? Did everyone give FD the idea they liked this new ENg thing because if they did, I'm confused how it went from "We like this in beta" to "FD you're the devil!!" - the beta testers, if no issues were raised by them, are also to blame here.
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I don't play the game and even I know you don't play PVP at all to have made the above statement lol.
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Not a minute, that's too short but 2-4 minutes is fine, maybe going as far as 10. All SCB's do is lengthen the TTk - there's no skill involved and when it comes to fighting in PVP, most people want to win be skill, knowledge and experience - not because they had 2 more scb's than the next guy.
Why was silent running nerfed? Because people can't shoot without gimballs?
Who in Beta testing raised this Eng expansion as an issue? Did everyone give FD the idea they liked this new ENg thing because if they did, I'm confused how it went from "We like this in beta" to "FD you're the devil!!" - the beta testers, if no issues were raised by them, are also to blame here.
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I don't play the game and even I know you don't play PVP at all to have made the above statement lol.
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Not a minute, that's too short but 2-4 minutes is fine, maybe going as far as 10. All SCB's do is lengthen the TTk - there's no skill involved and when it comes to fighting in PVP, most people want to win be skill, knowledge and experience - not because they had 2 more scb's than the next guy.
Why was silent running nerfed? Because people can't shoot without gimballs?
Untrue.
The beta testers screamed in pain for weeks, even more so when they were told the release will be done without further balancing.
It's a joke going into beta testing (even more so by cashing in for it), just to release a NOT thoroughly tested and balanced update.
It doesn't work like that, though. A large player pool, keen to find any edge and advantage will always find and abuse things missed in testing. It's a matter of man-hours.
There is something else: this topic started as 'heat missiles are used by everyone, take no skill and cannot be countered". Now we've established that missiles are very easily countered with two cheap modules, but PvP people apparantly chose not to use them. That changes the story very much, I'd say. Missiles were useless, now they are not. If you build a ship with zero missile-defence, you're bound to get into trouble. I totally fail to see why that is a design flaw by the dev, it seems like a massive improvement. I sincerely doubt the devs are going to be swayed by the argument:"heat cascade missiles are OP if I dont do anything against them."...
Here's a * for reading failure...
Originally Posted by Jex =TE= View Post (Source)
the beta testers, if no issues were raised by them, are also to blame here.
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Nobody here knows why silent running was nerfed???
I propose a challenge - build a ship which can survive for five minutes vs. a single FdL built to dump heat in its target. That's a pretty standard test which most people have plenty of experience with.
Most will already know what the outcome is, regardless of counter-measures taken. ECM can be slightly useful, as can point defence. Neither are enough to prevent all missiles reaching the ship. It will definitely help, but you sacrifice heatsinks, chaff, and boosters. There are also some more advanced methods which can be used; lock-breakers, dazzle, low-emissions, screening shells, and such. Once you have more than a single opponent, however, these lose their effect, even more so if the opponent uses emissive munitions.
Currently, entry-level pilots can bring a ship loaded with thermal-cascade seekers, wait for a lock, fire, and defeat an experienced commander not using the same weapons. If it were only available for dumbfire missiles, at least it would require a little more skill to apply such a monstrously overpowered effect.
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Tactics develop and change. There's no point sticking to a 'build' after things have changed to its determent. To be on the cutting edge, people must change and adapt to retain their edge, but often people are conservative an 'like' a certain way of doing things or dislike a new way. The people who are winning are those who adapt fast and don't cling to things, such as 'having' to have certain weapons or modules.
To the people suggesting ECM as complete immunity to Cascade: you can get cascade on non missile weapons, and people are mostly using a mix of missile and non missile weapons, with cascade and thermal shock. Shock is actually mostly balanced now, but Cascade is still much to easy to permanently keep someone at max heat. Because of the variety of weapon types, it is smarter to use more heat sinks, which will always help you, over ECM which will occasionally help you.