The beta testers definitely raised the issues, but the effects were not reduced enough to balance the effects, sadly. It's strange to think that the 'oh-so-scary feedback cascade railgun' is one of the most balanced mods the moment, especially when fighting somebody with proper, overlapping cell banks.
Please further nerf thermal cascade
- Thread starter Protein Carrot
- Start date
The beta testers definitely raised the issues, but the effects were not reduced enough to balance the effects, sadly. It's strange to think that the 'oh-so-scary feedback cascade railgun' is one of the most balanced mods the moment, especially when fighting somebody with proper, overlapping cell banks.
digitalscream
Banned
Right, so on a smaller ship you use two of your utility hardpoints for missile defence. Your opponent (invariably in a FDL) has two thermal missile racks and three beams, so you put heatsinks in the other two utility points.
Then you come across a hostile ship who doesn't use missiles or thermal cascade/shock weapons - but you haven't got any shield boosters, so he strips your shields in 30 seconds and you're done anyway unless you leg it.
As I said before...basing PvP on rock-paper-scissors with ship loadouts and removing skill from the equation is idiotic. Nearly every fight is won hours before it even starts.
That isn't the case, we were only talking about seeker missiles. ECM is useless against dumb fires which are also very well used. PD is useless unless used in bulk on a lot of utility slots at once. Both are useless against seeker missiles if they can be used at fairly short range and in large numbers (i.e. if your opponent can fly faster than you can)
> If you build a ship with zero missile-defence, you're bound to get into trouble
This isn't the case either. What would be more accurate would be to say that the only way to build a ship with missile-defense is to completely dedicate every utility slot to missile defense (and even then it's only a partial defense because of the reasons above). If you do this you're "bound to get into trouble" because you also need those heat sinks for thermal shock ;-) PVPers aren't silly, they do things for a reason. The reason that none of them are bothering with missile defense is because it's not useful enough to sacrifice the only universal (if short lived) counter (which is heat sinks). Without a lot of heat sinks you're going to die, end of..
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Sole Hunter
Banned
They did 4 weeks of public testing, 1 week with normal materials and 3 weeks with accelerated fish. To top it one dev had the guts to ask what was not ready about the patch when there was 100 pages of bug reports under the engineers feedback sub-forum about heat/railguns, bugged npcs...etc. Then they released update 2.1 and next morning videos of all the bugs appear in the normal discussion forum board, what an incredible funny coincidance.
They clearly do not test or listen to feedback. It's blatantly obvious. Either the community managers do a poor job at relaying critical feedback information. They are too busy eating cookies and tea or someone in upper management is sleeping.
They will do the exact same thing with 2.2, they will release it after 4 weeks of testing. I am calling it right now.
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I am going to suggest instead of weapon nerfs, a rework of heat as a mechanic: MODULE damage from weapon induced heat is capped at Hull% - 15 (So a ship at 100% hull could have their modules reduced to 85% integrity by shock/cascade, but to do further damage you would need to strip the shield, do hull damage via heat, or damage the hull through the shield).
This only applies to heat from weapons - heat from say scooping while FSD charging should have no cap.
This only applies to heat from weapons - heat from say scooping while FSD charging should have no cap.
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I can't find it now.. but I distinctly remember a comment in one of the beta threads from one of the devs to the effect of "Yeh, we know you all think thermal effects are completely OP but we're going to go ahead with them anyway and adjust later, if you can't mix things up during a beta when can you?". I can't find the thread now of course.. and I may have paraphrased it slightly incorrectly but it was basically that..
One of the problems with a beta (and I know this from being part of a fair few beta programmes myself as a dev) is that there's only so much you can change.. You can tweek some of the numbers etc but a beta is primarily there to fix bugs that you didn't find. It's not really an opportunity to alter the design because it's too late for that.. Changing that kind of thing takes months and you'd have to basically end the beta program and start again after a re-write.. So it's not totally surprising that they didn't alter the heat effects during the beta.. It was the design/prototyping stage were the mistakes were made..
Sole Hunter
Banned
I literally just went through Zac and Ed post history, i can't find the posts anymore. I think it was archived with the engineer beta forum but those who participated in the beta and paid attention to the feedback should remember it.
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FD please keep the thermal effects as they are.
This thread is silly: people whining about losing in PvP.
As long as PvP is not curated, as long as n vs 1 ganking is possible, or FDL vs Sidewinder, there can be no balance. What's a bit more unfairness compared to that!
And if you have a "gentleman's agreement" in place, you can agree to not use heat mods as well.
What exactly do you guys want, to ban a Cobra or Asp from using heat so it can be easier pray for an FDL ?! Because the other way around is still not gonna happen.
And 2 vs 1 is still a foregone conclusion no matter how much heat the 1 applies.
FD should at least wait more months before considering any more changes. Let the silly whining die down a bit.
This thread is silly: people whining about losing in PvP.
As long as PvP is not curated, as long as n vs 1 ganking is possible, or FDL vs Sidewinder, there can be no balance. What's a bit more unfairness compared to that!
And if you have a "gentleman's agreement" in place, you can agree to not use heat mods as well.
What exactly do you guys want, to ban a Cobra or Asp from using heat so it can be easier pray for an FDL ?! Because the other way around is still not gonna happen.
And 2 vs 1 is still a foregone conclusion no matter how much heat the 1 applies.
FD should at least wait more months before considering any more changes. Let the silly whining die down a bit.
I think you'll find that this thread is mostly full of people who are winning at PVP but finding it boring..
That isn't happening.. the FDL will always win with heat because it's got the most utility slots..
Sole Hunter
Banned
thing is, having 1 single meta is not very good and doesn't promote build variety which was one of the main complaint during 1.4 and 1.5, most of pvp players complained or didn't like the silent running meta with the cancerous railguns. The Engineers update was supposed to change that and bring new options and a range of different ways to play the game.
However that's what happened:
1: Feedback Cascade railguns, instant sniping SCB's dropping shields instantly.
2: Devs batman nerfed railguns and feedback cascade, great move to be honest.
3: Heat meta is born, stacking heat + burning a ship in 2sec because of 1500% overheat.
4: Dev improved the heat meta and gave it diminishing returns over time, and reduced the heat % still not good enough to be honest.
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First thing folks did when they opened up the engineer mods in beta was grade 5 our ships and test combat builds. Within about half an hour it was blatantly obvious it was OP. I remember having a beefed up FDL that was insanely strong, took off from a base, got immediately ambushed with missiles (thermal cascade), instantly my heat was through the roof, 5 seconds later modules malfunctioning, 10 seconds later ship was all but lost since all my modules were screwed fight was pretty much over. It was kind of amusing it was so ridiculously OP and it all came from thermal cascade missile spam.
I fail to see how that could have been missed short of it not being tested. Anyhow, I'm not interested in recriminations it needs to be sorted. Fail to understand how the least skill based weapon of all (seeker missiles) can cause so much damage.
remove heat generating effects from seekers, gimballed weapons and hitsacan weapons, that would leave fixed multi/cannon, plasma and dumbfires, just a thought.
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gimbals should be hung and dropped in the deepest ocean, thats just my opinion thoughI think its seekers that's the prob. Leave ma gimbals alone
take away all the easier ways to apply the effect and the issue would probably fix itselfThe game is simply being developed as a PvE game. Where all of this stuff doesn't really matter, because they can control what weapons the AI will be using, so any weapon mods are simply neat little toys for the player to experiment with on the AI. Designing a game to still work when you're dealing with players trying to min-max a meta build is so much harder.
Anyway, I think they took a wrong turn by adding lots of combat-relevant enhancements to the game. The weapon mods now, before that, it was shield boosters, shield cells, HRP,... Combat already was a very interesting part of the game, with much activity, and large variety of weapons, tradeoffs between shield sizes.
All that effort wasted adding extra stuff to what was the most complex and interesting part of the game already, and it made it worse, not better! Look at the contrast with other activities, something like exploration is still most efficiently done by honking and jumping, repeat 10000 times. And the trading support in the game is so poor that players alt-tab out of the game and use external databases to find deals.
Anyway, I think they took a wrong turn by adding lots of combat-relevant enhancements to the game. The weapon mods now, before that, it was shield boosters, shield cells, HRP,... Combat already was a very interesting part of the game, with much activity, and large variety of weapons, tradeoffs between shield sizes.
All that effort wasted adding extra stuff to what was the most complex and interesting part of the game already, and it made it worse, not better! Look at the contrast with other activities, something like exploration is still most efficiently done by honking and jumping, repeat 10000 times. And the trading support in the game is so poor that players alt-tab out of the game and use external databases to find deals.
So, to clarify, you're saying people are going out with just lasers, which now kill super fast? The use of just lasers are now seriously heating peoples ships up and the only way to get them to cool quickly is Heat Sinks. The winner of a fight is the person who has most Heat Sinks. I only play Solo so I've never witnessed what you're all discussing.
Hi cmdr AutoMechanical,
I believe you and me had a (few?) good fight a while ago.
Yep, after the death of Silent Running which I loved (and since I am not one of these FAoff + reverse guys, it has never been a cancer from me)...
...the death of shieldless builds (see there)...
...the current outrageous heat meta...
...the lack of PvE challenge (I know, you can fly a small or/and unmodded ship but then you are outmatched for any serious PvP)...
...as well as the lack of content and creativity (it has been two years we are basically doing the same stuff over and over again! CGs kill there, CGs sell this, CGs honk honk)
I am out of this game for a while I believe.
(not a whine, but we need to post comments on this thread to keep it on top, right?)
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