2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Taste are taste and opinions are opinion of course.

Nothing is wrong or right.

But.

We have a lot of instant action no one has never questioned: refuel, cargo operations, repair, fuel scoop, die and immediatly spawn in the last station even if there are 35000 ly in the middle...

Gameplay reason here: why in this case should be different?


here...

Good points though you are wrong about some people being happy with the other instant stuff. I would have time for repairs and rearming and stuff as well - with the small print we get missions to do whilst we wait with supplied hardware

 

[askavir]

Agree. I find the way that Sandro casually announced this change was shocking. He usually sees the full implications of what he is talking about. But this change would be HUGE, not a small thing, not just a convenience factor. But a complete rewrite of the core game mechanics by circumventing the whole jump range ecosystem.

If they want to dump the jump range hierarchy, fine. But do it in a way that isn't an immersion breaking chore. Just boost all the jump ranges to equal that of an Anaconda, and then charge insane fuel costs. That is effectively what they are doing anyway.

Not only that, it also unbalances the outfitting ecosystem. It will render location based outfitting, and outfitting planning and choice completely useless too.

Up until now you have to think on the modules you want to take with you when travelling to places like the frontier systems where outfitting is scarce. After 2.2, you can also cast "summon 6A fuel Scoop", or "Summon 3A gimballed beam laser" or "Summon class 4 refinery" wherever you are. Buy yourself a good selection of stuff in some high-tech LYR system at a discount, and suddenly never worry about outfitting again wherever you are. Everything is always there with you, at the distance of casting one of Sammarco's Spells.

 

[AstroCreep]

Another thought how I would exploit this new mechanic (this is not a good thing but no doubt what people will do)

i could take my A class FSD in my corvette and change it to an E class. As along i can get it to supercruise i dont care as i will never have to use it to leave a system ever again. I can jump wherever i want to be in my asp/conda summon my magical corvette and jump in and fly around the system. My heat will drop massively and my power requirements will go down so I can put more to weapons and overcharged engineering.... its not "an exploit" but i am "exploiting" the fact i dont need to travel to make a rediculous ship that should be only of any use to someone defending their home system...

A very very strong point you have there, rep sir.

 

[Quill]

Taste are taste and opinions are opinion of course.

Nothing is wrong or right.

But.

We have a lot of instant action no one has never questioned: refuel, cargo operations, repair, fuel scoop, die and immediatly spawn in the last station even if there are 35000 ly in the middle...

Gameplay reason here: why in this case should be different?

One different point of view: unless we are talking to move an Fdl to jacques, in 12 hours with 15 Ly what's the distance a normal Fdl can cover? let's say 30 jump for 10ly in 1 hour = 300 * 12 = 3600 ly; 24 hours = 7200 ly, more or less 1/3 of the distance to reach sagittarius.

At the end: it's better have a timer setted and in the meanwhile you exit with wife or dog or watch a film and then return and play or it is better having the ship delivered and have fun with it?

Gameplay balance here. I have no doubt. I purchase games for fun. So istant trasport is the good choice here.

About reality... you have a point: but for me, doing 1200 jump, doing the same things, to reach Sagittarius in the name of "reality" has been completly absurd.

So I welcome gameplay reasons here...

Obviously "reality" is on hold with Elite, but when a mechanic is introduced to satisfy arcade pvpers without any regard to the "realism" of the Elite universe, clearly there is something wrong. Nobody is asking for a real time space sim, nobody is asking for time sinks, but it breaks the "rules", so a small time penalty (cup of tea, a wee) is a small price to pay.

 

[Shar]

I hope and suspect you're correct. But what are FD thinking?! Are they making the game they want or what?

It's work in progress, still 2 months till live I,m confident they will adjust after the community feedback and careful consideration of all the points that have been raised. I think they may have underestimated how much we care about the game and this does not help the game. Just a minority that don't give a ------------ and see every challenge as a barrier.

 

[Elderoy]

Agree. I find the way that Sandro casually announced this change was shocking. He usually sees the full implications of what he is talking about. But this change would be HUGE, not a small thing, not just a convenience factor. But a complete rewrite of the core game mechanics by circumventing the whole jump range ecosystem.

If they want to dump the jump range hierarchy, fine. But do it in a way that isn't an immersion breaking chore. Just boost all the jump ranges to equal that of an Anaconda, and then charge insane fuel costs. That is effectively what they are doing anyway.

I agree...
With the instant transport, giving the same jump range to all ships would make more sense to me... At the difference that you could effectively use any of your ships to travel, making them more versatile

 

[loki12345]

A few minutes delay until the ship arrives at your location would be good. Instantly i a little immersion breaking.
We could explain this faster transporting with special transport-ships which have a much longer jumg range than normal ships, so they can transport your ship much faster.

 

[Varrag]

Reading through this thread, one can get get this impression that the average ED player is constantly on the move, non stop travelling everywhere around the bubble (and beyound) while at the same time switching ships like there's no tomorrow. Which I doubt. I'd assume that the majority of players are actually pretty static in this regard.

I, for one, know that once I put my bottom into the Asp and head into the void, it'll stay there for the next month - at least. When I am in the mood to shoot stuff, or mine rocks, or trade, I pick one or few systems and hang in there with my ship of choice for weeks to come. So I doubt that I would use instant ship transfer more than several times per year: I'd wish if someone could tell me what exactly is game breaking there. Immersion aside, of course, which is highly subjective thing anyway.

Again, who knows... perhaps I am not very good example. Maybe average ED player is moving his fleet on daily basis from one side of the bubble to another, and back.

 

[Elderoy]

Removed

 

[lysan]

FDEV are picking the wrong horse here FD claim for game play reasons, there are so many things in this game that takes time, why not cut that down? travel times are humoungus compared to a lot of other time consuming mechanics, then this should be cut down too, right?

I'm sorry frontier, I love a lot of what you're doing but this has not been through the thought process, need to get back to the drawing table.
There are many ways to make this work as intended and still keep the lore and illusion intact, don't make this as it stand. Can of worms for sure.

 

[Quill]

The thing with this game over traditional sims is that the galaxy we play in effects everyone, there is no standalone game where you can choose which fun elements to opt for, think of a combat flight sim for instance where the flight model can be dumbed down and infinite ammo etc, you only effect yourself or that particular session if playing online.

With ED allowing an action without balancing (not the fun) but the consequences has an effect over everything.

I am not at all against ship transfers be it made at station or actually transferred but it needs (IMHO obviously I can't speak for those that want the instant) some time related and maybe resource related balance which would help with the over all feel rather than PEW PEW PEW.

Say several people in a station want their ships transferred to there and said ships are made in station, they should be done in strict order of request placement and then if the resources are running low at said station that can feed into the market place and mission system altering pricing and demand etc, in which case some may get their ships made within a time frame but at a hot spot you may loose out to delays due to materials even down to station staff pressure which could feed into the the system status and political side. Instant wipes out all these feeds into the background simultaion.

Ask yourself why all ships aren't available at all shipyards? this could have an impact on ship transfer.

Not all stations have shipyards - therefore this would negate the locally built ships.

If doing it based on physically relocating the ships - then time jump factors come into play but this too could feed into the mission systems escort duties, opportunities for pirates to strike a rich booty, them getting lost etc.

I have only scratched the surface - this is something the Instant side of transferring ship wipes out from the game, it's a loss from the background simulation, which would be a real pity as it waters down the whole game.


Come on FD please listen to us Simulation types as well, you go to the grand effort of using "Science" to create the galaxy and the systems and planets .

YES! I agree, FD read please, very good ideas

 

[Mephane]

Another thought how I would exploit this new mechanic (this is not a good thing but no doubt what people will do)

i could take my A class FSD in my corvette and change it to an E class. As along i can get it to supercruise i dont care as i will never have to use it to leave a system ever again. I can jump wherever i want to be in my asp/conda summon my magical corvette and jump in and fly around the system. My heat will drop massively and my power requirements will go down so I can put more to weapons and overcharged engineering.... its not "an exploit" but i am "exploiting" the fact i dont need to travel to make a rediculous ship that should be only of any use to someone defending their home system...

You can replace the FSD in any ship with 2D, which just weights 1 ton. Saves a lot of weight, too, and is enough for supercruise, even if your jump range drops below 1 Ly...

 

[Quill]

A few minutes delay until the ship arrives at your location would be good. Instantly i a little immersion breaking.
We could explain this faster transporting with special transport-ships which have a much longer jumg range than normal ships, so they can transport your ship much faster.

Ohh I'm liking that , I can imagine super fast capital like transport ships, blistering range delivering ships and stuff to stations, It should cost and take time but would be cool. have some rep

 

[Shar]

Reading through this thread, one can get get this impression that the average ED player is constantly on the move, non stop travelling everywhere around the bubble (and beyound) while at the same time switching ships like there's no tomorrow. Which I doubt. I'd assume that the majority of players are actually pretty static in this regard.

I, for one, know that once I put my bottom into the Asp and head into the void, it'll stay there for the next month - at least. When I am in the mood to shoot stuff, or mine rocks, or trade, I pick one or few systems and hang in there for weeks to come. So I doubt that I would use ship transfer more than several times per year: I'd wish if someone could tell me what exactly is game breaking here. Immersion aside, of course, which is highly subjective thing anyway.

Again, who knows... perhaps I am not very good example. Maybe average ED player is moving his fleet on daily basis from one side of the bubble to another, and back.

Your right of course, i am similar to you in that i would have little use for it, problem is the exploitablility factor it will be the griefers best friend and damaging to the BGS as well as unbalancing the whole frame shift drive mechanic which will then unbalance the whole ship balance mechanic.

I will sell my shares in the fuel scoop company and buy shares in the D class Frame shift drive company. point being this will have a dramatic effect on the balance of the game and has not been thought through. It is a Pandora's box of unintended consequences.

 

[Wyaston Hypatia]

Not only that, it also unbalances the outfitting ecosystem. It will render location based outfitting, and outfitting planning and choice completely useless too.

Up until now you have to think on the modules you want to take with you when travelling to places like the frontier systems where outfitting is scarce. After 2.2, you can also cast "summon 6A fuel Scoop", or "Summon 3A gimballed beam laser" or "Summon class 4 refinery" wherever you are. Buy yourself a good selection of stuff in some high-tech LYR system at a discount, and suddenly never worry about outfitting again wherever you are. Everything is always there with you, at the distance of casting one of Sammarco's Spells.

I've not given outfitting much thought - but you're right - this is even worse than ship transfer.

 

[Elderoy]

A few minutes delay until the ship arrives at your location would be good. Instantly i a little immersion breaking.
We could explain this faster transporting with special transport-ships which have a much longer jumg range than normal ships, so they can transport your ship much faster.

Can we buy those ships to do some exploration so ?

 

[Lobstris]

Reading through this thread, one can get get this impression that the average ED player is constantly on the move, non stop travelling everywhere around the bubble (and beyound) while at the same time switching ships like there's no tomorrow. Which I doubt. I'd assume that the majority of players are actually pretty static in this regard.

I, for one, know that once I put my bottom into the Asp and head into the void, it'll stay there for the next month - at least. When I am in the mood to shoot stuff, or mine rocks, or trade, I pick one or few systems and hang in there for weeks to come. So I doubt that I would use ship transfer more than several times per year: I'd wish if someone could tell me what exactly is game breaking here. Immersion aside, of course, which is highly subjective thing anyway.

Again, who knows... perhaps I am not very good example. Maybe average ED player is moving his fleet on daily basis from one side of the bubble to another, and back.

It's not so much what player behaviour is now, but what player behaviour could be in the future, that needs to be thought through. It's like shields cell banks weren't a thing, then they were *THE* thing, silent running/hull tanking wasn't a thing, then it was *THE* thing, heat wasn't a thing, then... etc. Note, none of these are inherently 'bad', just that they have an impact on the flow of the game, and create a 'meta du jour'.

So. Making the assumptions that transfers are coming (most want it in some form), and it will be instant (I don't buy the 'gameplay' argument, I do buy the 'easy to program' argument, I don't think that a poll on these forums is representative of the current player base, being selfish I wish some of the player base were ignored etc. ), the question is - how do we design a system that achieves the cost goal of lowering the barrier for casual players to feel involved, but isn't open to abuse (e.g. completely distorting CG outcomes, or making LRS even more profitable that it is - but again the community might decide such things are acceptable). The real question I suppose is 'under what circumstances, and how frequent should transfers be?'

 

[Elderoy]

Not only that, it also unbalances the outfitting ecosystem. It will render location based outfitting, and outfitting planning and choice completely useless too.

Up until now you have to think on the modules you want to take with you when travelling to places like the frontier systems where outfitting is scarce. After 2.2, you can also cast "summon 6A fuel Scoop", or "Summon 3A gimballed beam laser" or "Summon class 4 refinery" wherever you are. Buy yourself a good selection of stuff in some high-tech LYR system at a discount, and suddenly never worry about outfitting again wherever you are. Everything is always there with you, at the distance of casting one of Sammarco's Spells.

THAT !!!

 

[warbaby2]

I voted for transfers to - at least - take "realistic" time... the game already has quite a bit of "gamey" mechanics, I don't think it needs more.

 

[CmdrCanine]

It's hardly like the game is that much of a complicated simulation to be fair, when compared to other flight simulators such as DCS World. Yeah it's a space sim, it simulates space, how about the fact that you can essentially just turn off no gravity? that for me is quite emmersion breaking, even if you name it something like "flight assist." it is just turning on gravity really. It is a very basic flight sim, you can have a computer dock for you. instaship FTW