Horizons NPC ships seem OP to me

[Squire]

Okay, you want proof? I just did a quick search on Youtube and found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZN_yZ07-18

Proof enough that there's something wrong? Granted, this may not be everyone's experience, and is probably a bug, but it does show that bugs like this do exist and aren't all our imagination. Again, I'm not saying "nerf the AI!111oneoneone!1!", I'm just saying: look into it. When something can wipe out a python's hull in less than a second like that, something's not right.

 

[Im_Lost]

The AI definitely cheats (still). E.g. just look at how powerful turrets are on any NPC ship. Stick them on a player ship and they are practically useless.

 

[xGundam]

Okay, you want proof? I just did a quick search on Youtube and found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZN_yZ07-18

Proof enough that there's something wrong? Granted, this may not be everyone's experience, and is probably a bug, but it does show that bugs like this do exist and aren't all our imagination. Again, I'm not saying "nerf the AI!111oneoneone!1!", I'm just saying: look into it. When something can wipe out a python's hull in less than a second like that, something's not right.

Impressive..
Anyway today I just tried a Haz RES. (Yeah I told ya that I quit but I lied, forgive me) I got an Anaconda that used 5 SCB one after another (yeah 5, imagine that) without using an heat sink. I had to ram it to shut down it's shield because my vulture hadn't enough firepower (obviously I destroyed my shield too).
When he reached 2% of hull he managed to get the shield up and guess what? ANOTHER SCB !
I got the kill when my ship was at 21%, had to bail out from the belt...

P.S.: I really would like to try if a ship, after 5 scb, burns like the self-destroy.

 

[Tubit]

I've noticed this as well. I haven't been playing for some time and I don't have Horizons. Saw the new Elite videos on youtube and decided to check it out again. I've jumped into several unidentified signal sources and gotten jumped by wings of 4-5 pirate ships who reduce my ship to dust in seconds. My ship is an Asp Explorer with what at least used to be top of the line equipment. The signal sources aren't registered as high risk either.

Am I missing something vital here, or are are these npc pirates now overpowered? I've lost my urge to play more, but I'll check back on this thread to see if there's something that can be done about this.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

For me, the AI and their equipment is generally manageable in a 1 on 1 fight.

A Deadly rank FDL interdicted my FAS today. That's a pretty fair fight for me. It had plasma accelerator size 4 and a suite of multi cannons, so the firepower was no joke, but my FAS has modded shields, armor, and a low level drive upgrade. After a tough enjoyable bout, his armor failed against my heavy pulse lasers. I took some damage: 88% hull left. It's possible to win without mods, but I can relax and not bother with FAoff turns now.

The difficulty level is just fine for a good combat build. A fully modded combat build ( power plant, shield boosters, HRP, power distributor and guns --i do not have) ought to over perform. This is much better balanced than it was before.

 

[DragoonKnight]

@xGundam is right. It's not the AI that is the problem. It's that the lethality level of NPC ships is too high by a lot. Being a Deadly NPC doesn't mean your lasers should be 6x more powerful. Just nerf the damage and leave the rest alone and we'll adjust. That's all we're saying. I actually think all the rest of the new enhancements are great.

Deadly Eagles dont use lasers. They tend to like rail guns. That is why they seem powerful.
Really, the AI is not that strong. You just cant half-ass it like you used to. If you are going to do combat you cant use a ship carrying 200 tons of cargo and running D rated thrusters.

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For me, the AI and their equipment is generally manageable in a 1 on 1 fight.

A Deadly rank FDL interdicted my FAS today. That's a pretty fair fight for me. It had plasma accelerator size 4 and a suite of multi cannons, so the firepower was no joke, but my FAS has modded shields, armor, and a low level drive upgrade. After a tough enjoyable bout, his armor failed against my heavy pulse lasers. I took some damage: 88% hull left. It's possible to win without mods, but I can relax and not bother with FAoff turns now.

The difficulty level is just fine for a good combat build. A fully modded combat build ( power plant, shield boosters, HRP, power distributor and guns --i do not have) ought to over perform. This is much better balanced than it was before.

A fully modded combat build will tank multiple ships in a CZ for a while. My corvette is still in the process of being modded and I managed to tank half a dozen ships in a CZ without losing shields. A fully modded ship will make the AI feel like easy mode. Even my lightly modded Python can survive 2-3 ships at a time in a CZ.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Ok, well... First things first:

You and your wingmate were in a CZ for, I'd guess, an hour - killing everything the NPCs could throw at you, and you stopped because it was too tiring. That doesn't sound like unbalanced NPCs. It sounds like you had to work for your money.

That said, you seemed to be complaining that you can't solo a wing of three Vultures any longer. The actual problem is that at one point, it was possible. That problem has now been addressed.

With regard to SCB spam, the NPCs being unaffected by heat is irritating, yes. Class B SCBs have five charges though, so - apart from the heat thing - I find it completely acceptable for NPCs to have them, more than one SCB too - I do the same sometimes.

 

[Tubit]

Deadly Eagles dont use lasers. They tend to like rail guns. That is why they seem powerful.
A fully modded combat build will tank multiple ships in a CZ for a while. My corvette is still in the process of being modded and I managed to tank half a dozen ships in a CZ without losing shields. A fully modded ship will make the AI feel like easy mode. Even my lightly modded Python can survive 2-3 ships at a time in a CZ.

What exactly do you mean by "modded"?

 

[Andrej]

Okay, you want proof? I just did a quick search on Youtube and found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZN_yZ07-18

Proof enough that there's something wrong? Granted, this may not be everyone's experience, and is probably a bug, but it does show that bugs like this do exist and aren't all our imagination. Again, I'm not saying "nerf the AI!111oneoneone!1!", I'm just saying: look into it. When something can wipe out a python's hull in less than a second like that, something's not right.

You are 'not so polite world here', that video dated 26 May, when bugged AI exist, FD admitted an fixed it already.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I played Elite for quite a while, then took a break for a few months. After the Engineers update I came back because I was curious about the crafting. I really like that element of the game but the NPC ships seem really OP now. I fly a kitted Anaconda + Engineer buffs on most of my ship systems and all of my weapons. Nevertheless, smaller ships now routinely strip my shields in only a few hits. I feel like I've upgraded my ship by leaps and bounds by spending hours collecting materials from all points in the galaxy for no good reason at all.

I'd like to see the damage that NPC ships inflict nerfed quite considerably. The game does feel more "dangerous" now, but it's not more fun. A commander flying a ship like I have should not have to run from smaller ships but that is now the state of the game. I had a much more enjoyable time (which is why I play games) playing the game before the Engineers update. I would still get run out of a CZ or RES site from time to time but it was because multiple ships would attack me at once. That seemed a very reasonable thing to me if I had bitten off more than I could chew by attacking a wing of 3. That was balanced. I know this isn't everyone's opinion, but is mine.

Frontier, can you give me some of my fun back? Not everybody is Commander HardCoreGamer.

...

When a musician blames his instrument for his failings...

God forbid NPCs are not brain dead...

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Impressive..
Anyway today I just tried a Haz RES. (Yeah I told ya that I quit but I lied, forgive me) I got an Anaconda that used 5 SCB one after another (yeah 5, imagine that) without using an heat sink. I had to ram it to shut down it's shield because my vulture hadn't enough firepower (obviously I destroyed my shield too).
When he reached 2% of hull he managed to get the shield up and guess what? ANOTHER SCB !
I got the kill when my ship was at 21%, had to bail out from the belt...

P.S.: I really would like to try if a ship, after 5 scb, burns like the self-destroy.

NPCs do take heat damage, and you are trying to kill a Conda in a Vulture, did you expect it to be easy?

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I've noticed this as well. I haven't been playing for some time and I don't have Horizons. Saw the new Elite videos on youtube and decided to check it out again. I've jumped into several unidentified signal sources and gotten jumped by wings of 4-5 pirate ships who reduce my ship to dust in seconds. My ship is an Asp Explorer with what at least used to be top of the line equipment. The signal sources aren't registered as high risk either.

Am I missing something vital here, or are are these npc pirates now overpowered? I've lost my urge to play more, but I'll check back on this thread to see if there's something that can be done about this.

That's why there's this thing called "threat #" displayed next to the signal source... if you cannot handle the threat, do not go in.

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So.. I tested something: Me and a friend of mine went into a CZ.

We experienced really strong AIs, in particular pythons. They used to activate SCBs one after another, like nothing happend ( no heat? ), tons of chaffs were used and their weapons felt like... well op.
Moreover: as a python I struggled to keep my guns on an enemy vulture, as a vulture i struggled to stay behind a python... I see no logic in that.
Anyway we managed to kill 39 ships then we both quit because it was too tiring. I can't imagine kill 1000 ships for the powerplay sake.

I'm quitting the game until something changes, I will still be here for some days to answer you.

CZ is where high combat ranked ships usually are. NPC takes heat damage, for sure.

 

[Tubit]

...

That's why there's this thing called "threat #" displayed next to the signal source... if you cannot handle the threat, do not go in.

If you read my post properly, you'll see that I wrote that the signal sources had low threat ratings.


Now... Can anyone explain to me what a "modded" ship is, like I asked earlier?

 

[Caller9]

New players stand no chance. Trying to get credits and being surrounded by 4 NPC hostiles is just off the charts. You stand no chance. You lose credits faster than you can make them. It gets boring to lose all the time when you find no means to improve the situation. Running missions for 3000cr is also boring. Takes forever to collect enough to do anything. It should at least be possible to compete. I keep trying to give it a chance but spending days building my meager credits back up to attempt a higher paying mission only to be shot down in seconds with not a hope of fighting back is losing me. Maybe it's easier for those that have been through this from the beginning. Hours running shuttle missions for 17K credits hoping you don't get hit by 3 or 4 ships is a waste. I have no problem with the 1 on 1 that comes up (rarely). I may be able to handle 2. Three to four? You can put everything into shields and they disappear in seconds, then the canopy, then another 150K credits gone. "One to one problem ok, Four to one too much ask anyone".

 

[xGundam]

...

When a musician blames his instrument for his failings...

God forbid NPCs are not brain dead...

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NPCs do take heat damage, and you are trying to kill a Conda in a Vulture, did you expect it to be easy?

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That's why there's this thing called "threat #" displayed next to the signal source... if you cannot handle the threat, do not go in.

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CZ is where high combat ranked ships usually are. NPC takes heat damage, for sure.

First thing: Yeah, usually it's easy for me to take down an Anaconda with my vulure. Most of the times I keep my shield at 2/3, that NPC was way too powerful, not every NPC.
Second thing: 4 SCB one after another without any Heat sink ( That Anaconda had no Heat sink module, I checked it ) and it took no damage ( it was still at 100% for both hull and power plant...). I see no heat damage here.

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If you read my post properly, you'll see that I wrote that the signal sources had low threat ratings.


Now... Can anyone explain to me what a "modded" ship is, like I asked earlier?

Modded refers to engineer modifications that are not available without horizon... that's why you don't know them.

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New players stand no chance. Trying to get credits and being surrounded by 4 NPC hostiles is just off the charts. You stand no chance. You lose credits faster than you can make them. It gets boring to lose all the time when you find no means to improve the situation. Running missions for 3000cr is also boring. Takes forever to collect enough to do anything. It should at least be possible to compete. I keep trying to give it a chance but spending days building my meager credits back up to attempt a higher paying mission only to be shot down in seconds with not a hope of fighting back is losing me. Maybe it's easier for those that have been through this from the beginning. Hours running shuttle missions for 17K credits hoping you don't get hit by 3 or 4 ships is a waste. I have no problem with the 1 on 1 that comes up (rarely). I may be able to handle 2. Three to four? You can put everything into shields and they disappear in seconds, then the canopy, then another 150K credits gone. "One to one problem ok, Four to one too much ask anyone".

Even for who was into the game since the very beginning a 4 vs 1 battle is nearly impossible as it should be...
Just try to get money in a more reasonable way: get yourself a Diamondback explorer and explore, or buy a cobra and sell rare commodities. Once you get a vulture and a little bit of skills it's not impossible to bounty hunt. The problem is the god npc random spawn, not every npc.

 

[Tubit]

Modded refers to engineer modifications that are not available without horizon... that's why you don't know them.

Ok. I have tried looking into these modifications, and I'm seeing upgrades available to virtually every ship module. Things like 30% more weapon damage. Better shields. Better hull strength. Better shield cells. Et cetera... They seem to empower ships significantly beyond normal ships. All of this is simply not available without the Horizons expansion? That seems very much like what is referenced to as 'power creeping' in the game industry. Expansions that force players to buy them, because the alternative is to be left behind with sub-par abilities. It's pretty much universally seen as a bad thing.

I can only assume that the ED developers are now tuning NPC adversaries with these upgrades in mind, or else - NPCs would become too easy for players with upgrades. So, when I reach a certain rating or point of progression, I can expect to face opposition that is out of my league because I don't have the expansion. Is there no way for people without Horizons to acquire these upgrades? This seems unfair and poorly thought out. If not even speculative.

I would like to get some clarification on this issue, before I end up on the decision that my version of ED is now simply not playable anymore. This expansion doesn't seem optional, it seems like the core gameplay mechanics now revolve around it.

 

[Caller9]

I'll give it a try.

 

[xGundam]

Ok. I have tried looking into these modifications, and I'm seeing upgrades available to virtually every ship module. Things like 30% more weapon damage. Better shields. Better hull strength. Better shield cells. Et cetera... They seem to empower ships significantly beyond normal ships. All of this is simply not available without the Horizons expansion? That seems very much like what is referenced to as 'power creeping' in the game industry. Expansions that force players to buy them, because the alternative is to be left behind with sub-par abilities. It's pretty much universally seen as a bad thing.

I can only assume that the ED developers are now tuning NPC adversaries with these upgrades in mind, or else - NPCs would become too easy for players with upgrades. So, when I reach a certain rating or point of progression, I can expect to face opposition that is out of my league because I don't have the expansion. Is there no way for people without Horizons to acquire these upgrades? This seems unfair and poorly thought out. If not even speculative.

I would like to get some clarification on this issue, before I end up on the decision that my version of ED is now simply not playable anymore. This expansion doesn't seem optional, it seems like the core gameplay mechanics now revolve around it.

You can't get the modification because engineers are on planetary outposts. And yes, NPCs have them, as far as I know. But you can still play without mods. I still play without mods even if I have horizons ( I need to find the time and the will to farm for engineers ).
But there's no mod that wipes out heat or absurd things like that.. so it's still playable although I agree that's a power creep ( but that's not the main topic, isn't it? )

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I'll give it a try.

Yeah, the vulture is a beast even without mods. Once you get a good fit you can manage to kill a lot of things.
I just got 2,2M in haz res (bumped myself into top 25% of CG with a total of 3,3M)

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I played Elite for quite a while, then took a break for a few months. After the Engineers update I came back because I was curious about the crafting. I really like that element of the game but the NPC ships seem really OP now. I fly a kitted Anaconda + Engineer buffs on most of my ship systems and all of my weapons. Nevertheless, smaller ships now routinely strip my shields in only a few hits. I feel like I've upgraded my ship by leaps and bounds by spending hours collecting materials from all points in the galaxy for no good reason at all.

I'd like to see the damage that NPC ships inflict nerfed quite considerably. The game does feel more "dangerous" now, but it's not more fun. A commander flying a ship like I have should not have to run from smaller ships but that is now the state of the game. I had a much more enjoyable time (which is why I play games) playing the game before the Engineers update. I would still get run out of a CZ or RES site from time to time but it was because multiple ships would attack me at once. That seemed a very reasonable thing to me if I had bitten off more than I could chew by attacking a wing of 3. That was balanced. I know this isn't everyone's opinion, but is mine.

Frontier, can you give me some of my fun back? Not everybody is Commander HardCoreGamer.

December 2014: The NPC's Are Pushovers!
August 2016: The Humans Are Pushovers!

 

[Othniel]

I felt the same way when 2.1 first came out because my Corvette became mostly ineffective against NPCs- especially smaller and faster craft like Eagles and Vipers. Today, after spending months modding everything on the ship, I am back to pwning any/all NPC ships again. I understand you may not want to spend all that time to mod every module, but good news! Just hang in there until the next big update because the promise made to big ship owners (and Keelback/Gunship) is upon us- deployable fighters like the F63 Condor! That will even the odds against those pesky Eagles and Vipers

 

[Dillontheman]

Its OP in a weird way. The NPC ships should apply to the same guidelines as ours or function in a human way, with error.

I want the ships to have a full setup regarding modules and whatnot, whereas now the shields, DPS, and maneuverability all seem arbitrary.

Also, the tactics seem to have changed. Fought an Elite Clipper in a HazRes yesterday and unless I moved the NPC was content with just sitting in one spot firing its beam lasers at me. I tested it for a second to see if he would move, his shields were down and mine were about to go down. We just sat there shooting each other until I repositioned, where he followed me and slowed down and picked the same strategy

 

[xGundam]

I felt the same way when 2.1 first came out because my Corvette became mostly ineffective against NPCs- especially smaller and faster craft like Eagles and Vipers. Today, after spending months modding everything on the ship, I am back to pwning any/all NPC ships again. I understand you may not want to spend all that time to mod every module, but good news! Just hang in there until the next big update because the promise made to big ship owners (and Keelback/Gunship) is upon us- deployable fighters like the F63 Condor! That will even the odds against those pesky Eagles and Vipers

Yeah, but since i love to fly my vulture too I feel a bit.. damned. I mean, farming thing with a cargo hold so small is a pain and until it is fully modded sometimes I cannot even pass the enemy shields (too much SCB spamming out there)