2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[OriginalBadBoy]

Are you serious?! That's literally its selling point. Vast, complicated, manual, sim.

But its not though .... ED is in no way complicated compared to the X series or EM for example. Its actually reptty simplisistc already in the grand scheme of things, but there is enough 'sim' in there as well, from that point of view the game is fairly well balanced.

And even if you had instant ship transfer it can still be that game if you want it to be, you just choose not to use it, it doesn't unbalance the game because you are not being forced to use it. I don't use docking computers for example, why would you? But some people do, the fact they are in the game doesn't devalue the game or make it unbalanced.

I'm not advocating instant transfer btw, there should be some delay. (5mins per 100LY is what I would go for)

 

[Khelder]

*grumbles*

I didn't really want to get dragged into a tech quagmire but fine.

Missions are stateless, how is this possible? Missions themselves are essentially a lookup which is joined to the pilot record with a time-stamp for when the mission expires (the mission and the timestamp already exist, when you take the mission all you are doing is joining it to your pilot entry). Those are the only two bits of info that the game actually needs to append to the pilots record. The mission lookup then points to the relevant entry on the database, tells it what SORT of mission, and what conditions might need to be fulfilled for it to branch, chain, etc. Fairly simple IF THEN statements. The mission lookup also has what conditions need to be fulfilled but doesn't actively track them, it will just perform the check at the point of submission (tracking can be done locally at the client level).

If the job is to provide cargo, that's easy, it just has to check the transaction server ONCE, when you get to the destination, do you have Cargo A at Point B, if so, issue reward C. If the job is to transport cargo, also easy, issue cargo A at mission start, if cargo A is at point B, issue reward C ELSE issue fine D. See? This is all stateless, you don't have to have this stuff stored server level. Only bits and checks.

For moving player assets around, you have to trust nothing and assume everything is hostile, and since credits are involved too, that means a scheduler. So the whole lot goes server-side, if you add a time delay, that's made it stateful, suddenly things get complex.

Are you talking about "persistence", not "state"? Of course missions have a "state". And they are also persisted server-side. Everything player-based is.

There are also obviously processes at play now that monitor those mission "states" to a degree in order to add mission critical updates. The basic conclusion is the same, though. Do a simple query on submission.

Thing is, this would be exactly the same for delayed ship transfer. Initiate transfer, set a arrival time. Every server-side call for station update, check station as destination for transfer and timeframe. Pretty simple.

 

[Verax]

If that really was the case, the discussion would be over... I have yet to see an argument pro instant transfer that amounts to anything more then "it's just as all the other instant game system" or "it's FDs design decision, so don't argue".

I actually replied to a similar challenge made by Yaffle earlier, in which he claimed he had seen no pro-instant arguments either (in spite of many that have been made)... so I made him a list as a reply. He's a moderator... and I assume he's probably seen it by now. Strangely... I have seen no reply. Smh. Anyway feel free to look back for it, it's only a few pages back now I believe.

 

[Shar]

Look there you go again. You're obsessed. That's unhealthy.

I,m talking about you not too you now shut up. Does your mother know your on the big boy forum?

 

[CMDR Robyn Highart]

But its not though .... ED is in no way complicated compared to the X series or EM for example. Its actually reptty simplisistc already in the grand scheme of things, but there is enough 'sim' in there as well, from that point of view the game is fairly well balanced.

And even if you had instant ship transfer it can still be that game if you want it to be, you just choose not to use it, it doesn't unbalance the game because you are not being forced to use it. I don't use docking computers for example, why would you? But some people do, the fact they are in the game doesn't devalue the game or make it unbalanced.

I'm not advocating instant transfer btw, there should be some delay. (5mins per 100LY is what I would go for)

If I see one more "choose not to use it"....

You'll be informed when you try pirating in open and all you ever see is empty AspX/Anacondas zooming between stations.

You'll be informed when you see someone arrive in an Asp and depart in a Cutter, emptying that nice little trade commodity route you were looking forward to running 3 or 4 times between stations.

You'll be informed when the player you blew up in a Hauler outside a far away station with only sidewinders in the ship yard suddenly appears in a Vulture and kills you.

You'll be informed when you participate in Community Goals but can't keep up with these guys who seem to be getting runs in 2, 3 or 4 times faster than you doing the round trip in one ship.

You'll be informed when the usual high paying mission ports you like to fly from are nerfed because they've turned into cash farms with a higher rate of payout than ever anticipated.

You'll be informed when your favourite sectors become desolate as players react almost instantly to BGS PP changes by summoning their 2D FSD fighers to reclaim the sector.

etc.....

Even in Solo or Private Group, you will be informed.....

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

What? That was exactly the premise of the game, what are you talking about? The whole flight model, yaw vs. pitch&roll, pip management, rotating stations, landing pads, planetary vectors, all of it really. What are you calling all of this?

But its not ... really it isn't, even Elite/Frontier and FFE have elements that could be considered 'arcadey' , for example a docking computer. As stated FD have balanced it pretty well , but ED is not a hardcore sim not in the slightest. if it was you would have perma death and be expected to cover all aspects of your ship down to the smallest detail. ED does not expect that of the player.

Your idea of 'sim' is somewhat incorrect.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I expect we will be able to buy and store cargo in special station holds, and later order that cargo as a delivery.

That way, we can store special Engineer cargo items when we get them, fly to an Engineer's workshop, and request some or all of that stored cargo, for upgrades.

That has a number of advantages...


1. It uses a simple behind-the-scenes atomic database operation to change cargo location, so quick to program.
2. We won't have to lug a pile of engineer cargo everywhere we go, which can stop us from, say, wanting to get into our combat ship when we're flying a Lakon Type 9.
3. It doesn't waste time flying somewhere remote, then all the way back. Our time is precious.


Obviously, some people will probably just complain it's "unrealistic". It's a game, people. Get over yourselves.

It doesn't stop you still grinding trade routes, if that floats your boat. If you really want to fly cargo 400 tonnes at a time, fine - just don't use cargo transfer. Nobody's forcing you!

Escape pods already travel half way across the galaxy in a minute. So will ships and modules. If you object to it, just pretend it's a module like a cargo bay, being shipped with some cargo left inside it. Use your imagination for your immersion, for pete's sake.

And what does it matter to you, anyway, how someone else plays? You don't get to decide what's fun and what isn't. Wasting time is never fun.

 

[CMDR RAY-ZOR'SHARP]

I have not read any of this thread so sorry if this has been said, I have voted for both transfers and instant.

Not being a science guy (or anything else for that matter) If I understand the FSD to use the folding space theory for travel, then what's to stop expanding that to shipyards having massive static point to point FSD's for ship only transport, this could be tied in with the cost of bigger ships, and longer distances costing more because of power usage.

What's not to love[haha].

 

[Elderoy]

I voted "Transfer should take a large fraction of the time it would take manually."

To me Elite is a role playing game and a simulator. And I prefer such games to be as realistic as possible. Obviously compromises have to be made for gameplay and while I agree with more common things like unloading, refuelling etc. to be instant, something more serious like a ship transfer should not be instant in my opinion.

The transfer itself is a desirable thing, for a number of reasons:

1) It will get players more attached to their ships. Rather than buying yet another disposable combat ship when I come across a profitable combat mission etc. while in my trading ship, I could ask for my Vulture to be transported to my location. You build a bond with your ship, it rises to a valuable asset, it gets a name etc. Things like that help get players immerse (yeah I said it!) themselves in the game world and it becomes more believeable and gains integrity.

2) Convenience - rather than spending time on kitting out the new disposable combat ship, I can simply request for my own ship to be transported to me and (assuming it's not instant) use the waiting time to make another trade run etc.

3) Gameplay reasons - because games are supposed to be fun!


The instanenous transfer would kill the feeling of realism and simulation that Elite currently does really well. The world will become more believeable in 2.2 due to little details like station variants, but at the same time it will lose A LOT of "believeability" due to magical ship teleportation. What is the explanation for this? 3D print? What's the point of having shipyars and Engineers at all then, if it all can be recreated in a 3D printer?

I understand that it's realism vs fun gameplay factor, but that needs to be balanced and I think that going into either extreme is bad - waiting an hour for a ship is certainly not fun! But at the same time an instant, magical <PUFF - here's your ship> style teleporation seems completely unrealistic and - to me personally - also isn't fun at all.

Like I said, realism vs fun factor is all about the compromises and while I accept that minor things like refuel are instant, because most people probably wouldn't like idling 10 minutes in the dock waiting for refuel, but ship transfer is a major thing and we can do other things while waiting for our ship to be delievered.

+1 to this

 

[warbaby2]

FTL is not even scientifically accurate. The leading theory has a gaping mathematical hole in it, in addition to the problem with dealing with infinite heat. The flight model is completely arcadey as well, although it's great fun and I'm not suggesting they change it. Your idea of "scientifically realistic" sure is conveniently malleable to suit your current argument. I'm sure you've also seen these criticisms but... what about all of the other instantaneous processes in the game that would actually take many minutes if not hours to complete if in accurate time? So many contradictions.

Hence the parentheses around scientifically accurate... I know it's scifie, we all do, still - as I already stated pages ago - there is a measure for what are reasonable, well planned game elements and what are just lazy convenience features.

Waiting for your character to respawn? Why, what does it add to the game? Your character might just as well loose their consciousness on escape pod launch and only awaken later, after being rescued.

Finding a pilot or company to transfer your ship to another station and waiting for the ship to arrive? A consistent and immersive way of transferring ships... it's in line with any other deliberate form of long distance travel presented in the game.

See the difference?

 

[Julio Montega]

Looking at the poll and reading a bit throught he threadnought 0.2
i see what can be agreed on:
We want both features,
but the implementation will be mixing stuff up a lot
and gameplay will be affected.

Can we agree on being able to tell the "transporter" where to bring the stuff/ship to?

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

If I see one more "choose not to use it"....

Whats wrong with 'choice' exactly?

I choose to wipe my commander on a regualr basis for example, why because it makes the game more interesting for ME. Thats my choice, there are others out there who never dream of doing such a thing, thats there choice.

A game that doesn't give players a choice in these sorts of things isnt much of a game in my book.

 

[Boomer Kay]

I'm "attacking" you because you have not given one good reason for your position, beyond the straw-men, and logical fallacies of every other instanter.

I didn't even know I'm an "instanter" .. or that there are "instanters".
It doesn't matter if I give you "good reasons", you're not willing to follow along anyway, so I can just have some light hearted, witty fun here.

Moreover most of your points are venomous and filled with a spiteful cynicism towards the game, which makes me question why on Earth you even bother to play it.

It's called sarkasm and it's directed at players that need to recieve every change FD does with "the sky is falling" replies, not the game.
That's not a "valid discussion" and we're not getting anywhere .. except to post 3000 .. so might as well have some light hearted sarkastic fun at the expense of players that accuse me of "demanding instant gratification", when I went to Jaque's and back uphill both ways. I'm sure that irony is completely unintended, but here's a picture that sums up why I did it and why I play this game:

fricking brilliant, isn't it?

 

[Shar]

You'll be informed when you try pirating in open and all you ever see is empty AspX/Anacondas zooming between stations.

You'll be informed when you see someone arrive in an Asp and depart in a Cutter, emptying that nice little trade commodity route you were looking forward to running 3 or 4 times between stations.

You'll be informed when the player you blew up in a Hauler outside a far away station with only sidewinders in the ship yard suddenly appears in a Vulture and kills you.

You'll be informed when you participate in Community Goals but can't keep up with these guys who seem to be getting runs in 2, 3 or 4 times faster than you doing the round trip in one ship.

You'll be informed when the usual high paying mission ports you like to fly from are nerfed because they've turned into cash farms with a higher rate of payout than ever anticipated.

You'll be informed when your favourite sectors become desolate as players react almost instantly to BGS PP changes by summoning their 2D FSD fighers to reclaim the sector.

etc.....

Even in Solo or Private Group, you will be informed.....

Listen to somebody that knows what there talking about, thats an excellent summary of the unintended consequence.

 

[CMDR Robyn Highart]

But its not ... really it isn't, even Elite/Frontier and FFE have elements that could be considered 'arcadey' , for example a docking computer. As stated FD have balanced it pretty well , but ED is not a hardcore sim not in the slightest. if it was you would have perma death and be expected to cover all aspects of your ship down to the smallest detail. ED does not expect that of the player.

Your idea of 'sim' is somewhat incorrect.

Nothing is a sim then! No one wants real scientific accuracy. That would be literally impossible. What we are talking about is the internal laws of the game world and up-keeping its rules on ITS reality. Making ships fly, replicate, 3d print or fart out wherever you want them instantly breaks the entire immersion of the game world. It's literally a God cheat. It makes every single trade, war, political move and any other action other than raw material collection utterly meaningless in a world with this ability.

 

[Verax]

Everybody has constraints on their time.
And 'you don't have to use it' is a non-argument. It's the same as adding a instant win button and saying you can ignore it.
If this was a single player game, then allright.
But it isn't. So no unnecessary cheats please.
And what's next? "Oh it takes so long to jump from one system to the other, please let us upgrade our fsd to allow 10.000LY jump with no fuel consumption since scooping 'takes too much time'" ?
Really, where's this instant-win crowd coming from?

All fallacious, every single one of your "points." It doesn't make anyone win, and it's not the same as an "instant win button." It also is not a cheat, it just makes playing the game more convenient. Additionally, not everyone has the same constraints on their time and if Frontier wants to make their game enjoyable for a broader audience (a wise business move for a developer that intends to keep their game successful for 10 years), they need to take those varying time constraints into account. Seems that they have, wisely. The fuel consumption point is a red herring and completely unrelated. You're grasping for straws.

 

[CMDR Robyn Highart]

Whats wrong with 'choice' exactly?

I choose to wipe my commander on a regualr basis for example, why because it makes the game more interesting for ME. Thats my choice, there are others out there who never dream of doing such a thing, thats there choice.

A game that doesn't give players a choice in these sorts of things isnt much of a game in my book.

So you just chose to ignore the rest... Jeez. You wiping your save affects no one but you. This will not.

 

[Trueno33]

So whats the issue then? Whats wrong with adding another ''simplistic' mechanic into the game. If you want a hardcore space sim then go play the X series or EM, FD are not trying to make ED a hardcore sim, that much was obvious from the start, and I applaud them for that to be honest. ED shouldn't be some vast complicated space sim.

This is really appalling. You guys cannot even recognize someone who shares your opinion?

 

[Elderoy]

You'll be informed when you try pirating in open and all you ever see is empty AspX/Anacondas zooming between stations.

You'll be informed when you see someone arrive in an Asp and depart in a Cutter, emptying that nice little trade commodity route you were looking forward to running 3 or 4 times between stations.

You'll be informed when the player you blew up in a Hauler outside a far away station with only sidewinders in the ship yard suddenly appears in a Vulture and kills you.

You'll be informed when you participate in Community Goals but can't keep up with these guys who seem to be getting runs in 2, 3 or 4 times faster than you doing the round trip in one ship.

You'll be informed when the usual high paying mission ports you like to fly from are nerfed because they've turned into cash farms with a higher rate of payout than ever anticipated.

You'll be informed when your favourite sectors become desolate as players react almost instantly to BGS PP changes by summoning their 2D FSD fighers to reclaim the sector.

etc.....

Even in Solo or Private Group, you will be informed.....

So much this !!

 

[Boomer Kay]

So you just chose to ignore the rest... Jeez. You wiping your save affects no one but you. This will not.

That is not entirely accurate.
By wiping your save, you remove assets from the galaxy, so of course it affects the game - it slows things down.