2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

Do you want ship and module transfer, if so how long should it take?

  • Yes, I want ship transfer.

    Votes: 1,869 71.1%
  • No, I don't want ship transfer.

    Votes: 90 3.4%
  • Yes, I want module transfer.

    Votes: 1,522 57.9%
  • No, I don't want module transfer.

    Votes: 137 5.2%
  • Transfer should be instant.

    Votes: 638 24.3%
  • Transfer should take a small fraction of the time it would take manually.

    Votes: 656 25.0%
  • Transfer should take a large fraction of the time it would take manually.

    Votes: 585 22.3%
  • Transfer should take at least as long as it would take manually.

    Votes: 696 26.5%

  • Total voters
    2,629
  • Poll closed .
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And what if the computation was done client side, just like the current route plotter, and it simply sends a timestamp to the server?

Anything involving credits is done by the transaction server, and nothing by the client is trusted. I emphasise this bit. Nothing. The moment currency gets involved you stop trusting the client, and the server becomes the arbitrator. That prevents the obvious like someone messing around in memory and shuffling the calculations about to suddenly get themselves cheap warp tickets to move their FDL to Jacques for the price of a Starbucks and a Flapjack. Ironically combat is client arbitrated along with most other things, but anything that involves Cr goes to the server.

Taking a mission simply appends the mission pointer to your pilot, but when you submit that you've DONE the mission, the game checks you've done what the mission asks of you and confirms you've got whatever mcguffins or killed whatever mcguyvers you needed to kill before it doles out the credits, because that step needs the transaction server to go "Okay, yes, you've been a good pilot, here's your food pellet"
 
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You know about the Arena mode, I'm sure. So we dont need to destroy the gameplay just so you can blow off some steam

Explain how gameplay is destroyed, because I'm not seeing it. Also Arena mode at the very least needs some work. There is no way to join up with your friends so that option is right off the table.
 
i see what you are saying but "fun to you" may be gamebreaking for others, it isnt about wanting to stop your fun, however for better or for worse ED is not a single player game where you can turn on cheats to do what you want.

how is "I do not have time to get my ship to a conflict zone to play with people" any different to "i do not have time to grind to an A rated fully engineered FDL therefore the game wont let me have my fun"?.

I am not having a go, and i do sympathise but i thought the ship transport WAS the compromise, instant ship transfer seems to be jumping from 1 extreme of having to taxi ships from one place to another, to the other extreme of unbelievable magic.

And i found sandro et all making a joke about it really rather worrying to be honest. Clearly they disagree with those of us who want a game free of magic, but to mock those worried it was breaking the game was taking it too far imo.

either way tho it would be nice to have some dev thoughts on this threadnaught.

They did that? Wow, just wow. Not sure I even want to watch the livestream any more if that's what happened. How incredibly unprofessional.

What a slap in the face!




Yes i watched that it was very disappointing.
 
Over what range?

The current limit is 1000 ly for planning a route. Currently, using the current code, you could not get a ship to Jaques if they had to calculate the route.

this isn't bad idea. Can be used also much less (max 200ly distance).

I'm digging that as well. A cap on max transfer distance would certainly help Jacques stay remote. You could instead, and easily compared to how it is now, leap frog your fleet (stopping to transfer halfway) before going the next leg to bring ships right across the bubble. Generally speaking though, I think all you really want is to avoid having to buy, fit and then sell a taxi .. for .. every .. single .. ship .. movement .. possibly as your faction expands to the system next door!!
 
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It does keep the need to have at least a little commitment or meaning into the choices you make. I get the reasoning. More fun, more fast. But it's also a short-cut to avoid responsibility for choices you make.

It would be like playing a fantasy-based game, selecting a weak spellcaster type character and then, on a whim, deciding you want to start swinging around a big heavy sword and start lopping heads off. I get that you might want to stop and have some different kind of fun, but it doesn't fit with the choices you've made.

At least with ED you get to go and pick up your other ship and come back without having to restart a whole new character.

And yet that is precisely what you do in world of warcraft. You can have multiple characters of different types that play in different ways and fulfil different roles. And you can swap between them at more-or-less any time. It is one of its best and most sensible features and provides a freedom of choice and an increased degree of flexibility and longevity.

Ship transfer isn't quite the same but for its issues it permits a pretty similar mechanic to occur.
 
If it goes the instant route.

How long before another QoL change lands where the impatient say that having to swap ships in a Station takes up to much of their 15 minutes per week they have to play the game, so FD have to implement in ship swap outs? so they have to keep them happy and give the middle finger to those that don't want it.

Sandy I do hope I have not given you any ideas!

Mr Braben Please ground this feature in some reality, you may as well have icons for planets and a text adventure for planetary landings.....


Options Fly Away, Orbit, Land
LAND <rtn>
Options Check ship status, Look out of cockpit window in Awe at rugged landscape, Deploy Buggy
DEPLOY BUGGY <rtn>
Transferred to SRV Cockpit, systems boot up while you strap yourself in, the view from the cabin is truncated by the rear of your ship, your health status is 100%, your fuel status is 75%, your lights are off.
Options Turn on lights, Head S, Board Ship, Check Scanner, Inflate that left middle tyre,
HEAD SOUTH <rtn>
You head South you come across an outcrop, you scanner is very noisy..................................................



Okay I may have lost the plot a bit but please no Instant ship recall.

How on earth (or Merope 5c) can ship recall be instant yet all that travelling to station takes absolutely minutes?
 
With all due respect Fdev have not given us an explanation as to the lore or method of this instar-jumping so every explanation falls flat on it's face. it's all just conjecture at this stage but if your thinking massive cargo ship they would not cover unlimited distances instantly either and i have already talked about a ridicules idea that every station has 50,000 anacondas parked out the back or 3D printers making space ships non of these explanations are plausible.

The best is a giant cargo vessel then there needs to be an equivalent delay unless there is worm holes but that messes things up even more, face it, it's a problem explaining it anyway. but thats not my concern, I,m only concerned about the unintended consequences of the instant jump which are well explained throughout this thread.

Oh come on ... Your argument is hanging by the thinnest of threads now.

There are plenty of other stuff that FD haven't explained in the game either. Assuming ship transfer ends up with a delay then when you do it in game you would assume that is was being packed up into another ship and being sent.

There is no problem explaining this any other than in your head for the sake trying to prove your (invalid) point.
 
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Over what range?

The current limit is 1000 ly for planning a route. Currently, using the current code, you could not get a ship to Jaques if they had to calculate the route.

Sometimes I go into USS and there are wings of 8 or 10 dudes. I'm not sure how they do that when their HUDs are completely covered with icons. The computer is not as limited as the player in many ways.

Once I killed myself 1200 ly from the bubble and I instantly found myself at a station, my pod can jump over 1000 ly at once.
 
Anything involving credits is done by the transaction server, and nothing by the client is trusted. I emphasise this bit. Nothing. The moment currency gets involved you stop trusting the client, and the server becomes the arbitrator. That prevents the obvious like someone messing around in memory and shuffling the calculations about to suddenly get themselves cheap warp tickets to move their FDL to Jacques for the price of a Starbucks and a Flapjack. Ironically combat is client arbitrated along with most other things, but anything that involves Cr goes to the server.

You're making what is a super simple set of transactions seem super-complicated when they just aren't.
Request Ship Transfer - Remove Credits - Move Ship (in transit) - Add Timer - On Time Expiry - Move Ship (Destination).
 
Anything involving credits is done by the transaction server, and nothing by the client is trusted. I emphasise this bit. Nothing. The moment currency gets involved you stop trusting the client, and the server becomes the arbitrator. That prevents the obvious like someone messing around in memory and shuffling the calculations about to suddenly get themselves cheap warp tickets to move their FDL to Jacques for the price of a Starbucks and a Flapjack. Ironically combat is client arbitrated along with most other things, but anything that involves Cr goes to the server.

Possibly showing my ignorance here, but payment for transfer would be instant, while the transfer would be timed. Could you keep only the timing on the client side. I know that there is a potential for cheating here, but .... hmmm, no you can't, can you, when I think about it. That would break the principle of keeping your save game server side and open up Pandora's box with regards to network issues and server disconnects.
 
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And yet that is precisely what you do in world of warcraft. You can have multiple characters of different types that play in different ways and fulfil different roles. And you can swap between them at more-or-less any time. It is one of its best and most sensible features and provides a freedom of choice and an increased degree of flexibility and longevity.

Ship transfer isn't quite the same but for its issues it permits a pretty similar mechanic to occur.

It's not like when my raid group needed an extra healer I could just go and create a druid and bam we're ready to fight the Lich King. You've just glossed over the effort required to get a raid ready alt.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
I haven't been to Jaques in a high-combat ready FdL but that sounds like a lot of fun, especially if I'm not the only one who can do it.

But that's the point. It sounds like fun, but now there is no need. The journey would be close to meaningless. Doing it in a long range ship is trivial compared to the FdL. I'd respect the FdL person, and they would (I assume) have a massive sense of satisfaction, dare I say 'fun', when they shoot their first trader there. Or go in a fast spawn in FdL shoot trader. Just like doing it in Eravate. So, that's the fun killed.

Not sure how flying Robigo/Sothis missions would be changed by being able to transfer a ship - I fly out in a long range ship and then slowboat my mission back, or I just use a long range ship the whole time, again, doesn't affect me if others do this.

Fly back fast, summon mahoooosive ship, stack more missions, profit, fly back fast... no need to balance the speed of the return trip with cargo capacity. Reduces the potential for thought in the game, removes fun.

God, yes, I've done PowerPlay but I wish I hadn't. PowerPlay is an example of really poor game and challenge design that Frontier is becoming very good at finding new and inventive ways to create. Instant ship transfer is a mechanic designed to enable fun and better opportunities.

Of which none are suggested.

I would not be opposed to very small delays on ship transfers, but only because right now I have had times where I have gone "oh, I'm gonna have to transfer this ship in order to put this module on it. . . nevermind" and stopped playing, and this would at least let me go "I guess I'll do it tomorrow" when I go to play elsewhere. Some people have to do this game an hour at a time, and putting arbitrary waits on things doesn't increase fun.

I don't get where the 'stop playing' bit fits in. Everyone keeps saying that, and nobody has very suggested it. You order the ship carry on playing while it is delivered and then go and meet it when it arrives. if you order it just as you're about to log off, then it will be there waiting for you. Combat zones last days. CGs last days.

It's a game, and for me, all design decisions, every single one, should be based first on whether or not it enables fun or restricts it.

Only, as noted, this restricts it.

If it restricts fun, there has to be a compelling reason (gameplay balance, affecting other players, etc).

Reasons given all over this thread.

Because Frontier refuses to implement anything like a real player economy allowing module or money transfer in game, there's very little reason to ever restrict things for affecting "the galaxy" or the economy or something, because the game is designed to remove player agency and ensure that individuals can have little to no effect on the galaxy. So really only balance reasons matter here.

Which are significant, as set out all over this thread.

So ship transfer is good, great even. Instant enables the most fun, if there has to be some kind of time limit arbitrarily it's something that should be added later, when exploits present themselves, and not right out the gate. Laws and restrictions should be a response to things that have happened, not preemptive, especially when the stakes are so low.

Instant enables the most fun. But the hollowest, worst form of fun that is over in an instant (heh) and serves no purpose to make you feel as if you've gained. It's a hollow, candy-crush sort of fun. We have Arena that does that in spades. For some fun is being able to one-shot noobs, should all pirates be given a one-shot weapon because it's fun? Should we now forget the travel thing altogether because only pew-pew is fun, and fun trumps all? There are types of fun, and bashing the game balance does not make something more fun necessarily.

I'm quoting this so people can read it again, it's that good.

But flawed. So deeply, deeply flawed.
 
You're making what is a super simple set of transactions seem super-complicated when they just aren't.
Request Ship Transfer - Remove Credits - Move Ship (in transit) - Add Timer - On Time Expiry - Move Ship (Destination).

If you think that's simple in a multiplayer environment where you have to deal with people trying to exploit the game code, then we've nothing further to discuss. This is why I don't do tech post quagmire.

Possibly showing my ignorance here, but payment for transfer would be instant, while the transfer would be timed. Could you keep only the timing on the client side. I know that there is a potential for cheating here, but .... hmmm, no you can't, can you, when I think about it. That would break the principle of keeping your save game server side and open up Pandora's box with regards to network issues and server disconnects.

Now you sir, you get half the cookie. You're thinking about it, and you're seeing some of the issues. As the save is server side and the transfer can't be "stateful", you've got to think about this in some very specific terms like "what does that mean in terms of CPU and Database overhead" "what can devs fudge as a beacon to send things to locations", ironically, the Pilot is the only persistent piece in the gameworld on the save, everything else is more or less temporal.
 
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3000 posts in 36 hours must be a record, i would love to be a fly on the wall a frontier on Monday morning.
 
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Yes i watched that it was very disappointing.

However they like our money, in other news David Braben talks about the realism in Elite and how important it is to him (the CEO).
So to me there are two camps in the Elite Dangerous development team, one is for implementing wheels of fortune, ding ding ding mechanics, and the others are for a more simmy game I know where I would place my money.
 
I think it's highly likely FD's decision had very little to do with "wanting to improve gameplay", and instead had a lot more to do with "being able to deliver ship transfer with minimal dev effort".

If they had been coming at it cleanly, they would have drawn up something like this...

- Open Galaxy Map
- Select target star system
- Open System Map
- Select a station (or, for Horizons owners, planetary base)
- Press new TRANSFER SHIP icon
- Choose ship from list of your ships that suit dock size.
- Get presented with cost (and arrival date/time, if implemented).
- OK/CANCEL
- "Mail" arrives when ship is available.


That, unfortunately, loses out to:

- Open Shipyard Transfer Tab
- Select Ship
- Get presented with cost
- OK/CANCEL
- Ship arrives


I'm not kidding myself that this is a big gameplay paradigm shift. No, I reckon this one is all about dev effort required.

Which is very unfortunate, I feel.

Speaking of mail does anybody know David Braben's e-mail address? I want to send a short but packed e-mail about how his employees disregard his vision for Elite to cater for the instant gratification crowd which is suffering from severe ADD.
 
So the sole argument for this instant travel is so players can pew-pew each other in a remote location faster.

I wish there was some form of arena we could do that in, where everyone could just go instantly and shoot at each other. That would be nice. And make no sense in-game, but not add any potential exploits.

From the hints they gave at Gamescom I have the feeling that it's going to be aliens that people will be shooting and they're introducing this mechanic mainly to support that. Why it needs to be instant I'm not sure unless they are going to be running real-time events rather than week long community goals, where you need to get there quickly.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Speaking of mail does anybody know David Braben's e-mail address? I want to send a short but packed e-mail about how his employees disregard his vision for Elite to cater for the instant gratification crowd which is suffering from severe ADD.

If anyone does, DO NOT publish it here.

Thanks
 
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