This is immersion breaking.

thearmysredneck

T
My god I hate that statement. This shouldn't be this way it should be that way because it kills immersion. "Immersion heads" if you will, and I'm not talking about folks who use HOTAS, TrackIR/VR, Voice Attack, and such to enhance gameplay experience. Hell I love that stuff and have seen some really wicked "Sim Pits" that are pretty awesome. But as far as game dynamics go, If you want realism go play Xplane, FSX, DCS, Dangerous Waters, Jane's 688i, ect, ect. Now I do enjoy those games, but other than hard core Sim folks those don't appeal to most gamers. Hell I can't even get Dangerous Waters to work on windows 10. Why? Due to the lack of dev support and a small community of players.

Some space magic is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for gameplay. I mean look at the mixed game reception. Here the dev goes and make some quality of life gameplay improvements and met with the immersion heads claiming how damaging this is to their pretend and make believe time. Rather than being melodramatic over it, just don't use those features. If you think you should not have insurance, and re-buy your ship, then don't and clear your save. I know some of you do and that's great! If the idea of instant ship transport bothers you, then dont! Use some sort of self imposed time limit, and pretend that it's being transported by some.....whatever ....that helps your pretend land make sense to you.

The Dev team seems to do a good job at making sure most things make sense, or at least, to our current understanding, are rooted in science. If the use of some space magic for the sake of gameplay bothers you that much, I guess I feel sorry for you. Perfect example of first world problems combined much time on one's hands I reckon. So why bother with this post? Well, I would like to point out something. That is, if this fantastic pass time we all enjoy, was made into some "super realistic" space sim that some would like it to become, I think the player count would drop drastically. That would be a bad thing for all of us. Sorry for the grammatical errors, I'm sure thereare many!
 

askavir

askavir
thearmysredneck said:
If you want realism go play Xplane, FSX, DCS, Dangerous Waters, Jane's 688i, ect, ect.
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If you dislike immersion / realism / "credible suspension of disbelief", why can't YOU go play Freelancer, Darkstar One, Star Wars, etc?

David Braben promised a game built around a scientifically plausible realistic(ish) environment, that's what got funded by kickstarter in the first place, and that's what we expect to get.
 
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MarcusKross

MarcusKross
askavir said:
If you dislike immersion / realism / "credible suspension of disbelief", why can't YOU go play Freelancer, Darkstar One, Star Wars, etc?

David Braben promised a game built around a scientifically plausible realistic(ish) environment, that's what got funded by kickstarter in the first place, and that's what we expect to get.
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^ This.

When in doubt listen to David Braben.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Yaffle
Within any fiction there are rules that the universe follows, and you 'immerse' yourself in them by wilfully suspending your disbelief. An example is Wile-e-Coyote. He runs off a cliff and gravity does not happen until he notices. Then he falls.

Realistic, nope. Immersion breaking, nope because that's the rules of his and road-runner's universe.

Harry Potter is a Wizard, realistic, nope, immersive, yes as his magic world has its own rules he and the cast have to follow.

You surrender to this with every book/film/game you watch. Sometimes very deeply, sometimes not.

Whenever the universe rules shift, you feel cheated and step out. For example, a character breaking the fourth wall and talking at you reminds you it's a film. A character wearing a different tie every time a conversation cuts back to him reminds you it's a film. Indiana Jones surviving a nuclear explosion in a fridge reminds you it's a flim. Film makers try to avoid it. The spooky Alien is not spooky if it's obviously a glove puppet, and you see the operator.

When the universe rules change it causes problems, quite significant ones in some cases, as suddenly vast tracts of it may make no sense. An example would be the eagles in Lord of the Rings, the film never adequately explained why they couldn't just fly in, dump the ring, get out. Now you can carry it off by hoping nobody notices, or you can't. If, instead of the Eagles Frodo suddenly said 'oh yeah, I forgot, we can both fly Sam, let's fly out of here' and Superman like they flew back to Minas Tirith you'd be thinking 'what just happened?' You've left the film and, dare I say it, your immersion is broken. You feel cheated. it's a cop-out. Almost as much as 'and she woke up and it was all just a dream'.

Some works do this. Sometimes for comedy effect, sometimes for a more avant-garde reason, and sometimes it just 'fits'. The Monty Python universe is silly, it follows no rules really, but you accept the lack of rules as that's the rules. Sometimes (The Big Short does this) a character breaks the fourth wall, in that case he's the narrator and it feels a bit more natural as he's telling you the story. But that's fine, it's the premise of the film.

I'm rambling, but the point is to make something engaging it needs its own ruleset applied consistently, or if there is to be change there needs to be a massive reason for it, and it needs to be well thought out to avoid being jarring.
 
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Howk

Howk
Enormous pockets to travel with many engineering materials, planetary approaches without orbital tours to decrease speed, strong angles in final approaches, lightspeed x X to see Sagittarius A just after a few weeks, Flight Assist on and off to simplify our movements as we were small birds with enormous ships... I think Fdev's always make compromises between future fantastic universe and simulation. We all know that if you choose the 100% sim, you loose customers. We all know that if you choose a 100% fantastic immersive universe as you say, this game will loose all for what we love it: a mature game with compromises. I love travelling, exploring as if I were a real navigator: please don't change it. Immersion is in simulation, not in a full magic child's game. (sorry for awfull language)
 

DirkLarien

DirkLarien
Yaffle said:
Within any fiction there are rules that the universe follows, and you 'immerse' yourself in them by wilfully suspending your disbelief. An example is Wile-e-Coyote. He runs off a cliff and gravity does not happen until he notices. Then he falls.

Realistic, nope. Immersion breaking, nope because that's the rules of his and road-runner's universe.

Harry Potter is a Wizard, realistic, nope, immersive, yes as his magic world has its own rules he and the cast have to follow.

You surrender to this with every book/film/game you watch. Sometimes very deeply, sometimes not.

Whenever the universe rules shift, you feel cheated and step out. For example, a character breaking the fourth wall and talking at you reminds you it's a film. A character wearing a different tie every time a conversation cuts back to him reminds you it's a film. Indiana Jones surviving a nuclear explosion in a fridge reminds you it's a flim. Film makers try to avoid it. The spooky Alien is not spooky if it's obviously a glove puppet, and you see the operator.

When the universe rules change it causes problems, quite significant ones in some cases, as suddenly vast tracts of it may make no sense. An example would be the eagles in Lord of the Rings, the film never adequately explained why they couldn't just fly in, dump the ring, get out. Now you can carry it off by hoping nobody notices, or you can't. If, instead of the Eagles Frodo suddenly said 'oh yeah, I forgot, we can both fly Sam, let's fly out of here' and Superman like they flew back to Minas Tirith you'd be thinking 'what just happened?' You've left the film and, dare I say it, your immersion is broken. You feel cheated. it's a cop-out. Almost as much as 'and she woke up and it was all just a dream'.

Some works do this. Sometimes for comedy effect, sometimes for a more avant-garde reason, and sometimes it just 'fits'. The Monty Python universe is silly, it follows no rules really, but you accept the lack of rules as that's the rules. Sometimes (The Big Short does this) a character breaks the fourth wall, in that case he's the narrator and it feels a bit more natural as he's telling you the story. But that's fine, it's the premise of the film.

I'm rambling, but the point is to make something engaging it needs its own ruleset applied consistently, or if there is to be change there needs to be a massive reason for it, and it needs to be well thought out to avoid being jarring.
Click to expand...
This should be sticky
 

askavir

askavir
Ziljan said:
Yeah, but sometimes Braben needs to listen to Braben.
Click to expand...

Braben needs to get a hold on his lead devs.

Engineer casinos.
Healing lasers.
Flying combat ship replicators.
Ship disabling skimmers highly vulnerable to tiny SRV weapons.
Ship and module teleportation.
Passengers annoyed by arrival delays decide to abandon their transport ship's luxurious accomodations in protest and jump out into the dangerous void inside container capsules.

I mean, what the fart is this?

Mr Braben, control your men!
 
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thearmysredneck

T
askavir said:
If you dislike immersion / realism / "credible suspension of disbelief", why can't YOU go play Freelancer, Darkstar One, Star Wars, etc?

David Braben promised a game built around a scientifically plausible realistic(ish) environment, that's what got funded by kickstarter in the first place, and that's what we expect to get.
Click to expand...

I never said I dislike any of those things you mention. I'm just pointing out that if this was absolute realism, as best as we could get anyway, that the player base would be much smaller.

The acceptance of some space magic here and there is going to have to be necessary for to keep the wider player base paying customers and continue development. If you don't settle for some space magic, expecially in areas you don't have to or impose you own realism mechanism, you might not get the fully realized game at all. I'm just pointing that out.

A lot gamers don't want super real. That would get boring to them, and the areas that are hot topics right now could be solved by your own actions if it bothers you that bad. Self impose what ever mechanic....just like self imposed iron man mode. Mad respect for you self imposed iron man mode guys btw. If this was an iron man mode only game, I doubt any of the guys I play with would be playing, myself included.
 

askavir

askavir
thearmysredneck said:
I never said I dislike any of those things you mention. I'm just pointing out that if this was absolute realism, as best as we could get anyway, that the player base would be much smaller.

The acceptance of some space magic here and there is going to have to be necessary for to keep the wider player base paying customers and continue development. If you don't settle for some space magic, expecially in areas you don't have to or impose you own realism mechanism, you might not get the fully realized game at all. I'm just pointing that out.

A lot gamers don't want super real. That would get boring to them, and the areas that are hot topics right now could be solved by your own actions if it bothers you that bad. Self impose what ever mechanic....just like self imposed iron man mode. Mad respect for you self imposed iron man mode guys btw. If this was an iron man mode only game, I doubt any of the guys I play with would be playing, myself included.
Click to expand...

No game can ever be 100% realistic. But it can be realistic(ish) or better said "plausible". Obsviosly a few concessions to gameplay will always have to be made, but that doesn't mean we have to go full looney tunes mode. Suspension of disbelief can only be sustained up to a point, either in games, books, movies, tv shows etc.

The game was presented and sold as an attempt at an imersive experience in a realistic(ish) sci-fi universe. If suddently we start having things that break the rules, the suspension of disbelief disappears, and it starts to feel like an "input coin" game.

Imagine Game of Thrones. We can keep suspension of disbelief while seeing dragons and ice zombies, because they are consistent with the game of thrones world. But if suddenly Batman storms into the red keep and punches Cersei in the face, we'll feel ripped off, even though Batman is as much unreal as dragons and ice zombies.

In ED is the same. The whole premise of the game is that the galaxy needs pilots to fly spaceships doing various tasks necessary to keep civilization running. If suddenly we can just insta-teleport ships and modules around, then we just met the game of thrones batman. The whole game premise becomes a farse. And it invalidates parts of its own world, as things like ship and module availability in each location become merely decorative.
 
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thearmysredneck

T
askavir said:
No game can ever be 100% realistic. But it can be realistic(ish) or better said "plausible". Obsviosly a few concessions to gameplay will always have to be made, but that doesn't mean we have to go full looney tunes mode. Suspension of disbelief can only be sustained up to a point, either in games, books, movies, tv shows etc.

The game was presented and sold as an attempt at an imersive experience in a realistic(ish) sci-fi universe. If suddently we start having things that break the rules, the suspension of disbelief disappears, and it starts to feel like an "input coin" game.

Imagine Game of Thrones. We can keep suspension of disbelief while seeing dragons and ice zombies, because they are consistent with the game of thrones world. But if suddenly Batman storms into the red keep and punches Cersei in the face, we'll feel ripped off, even though Batman is as much unreal as dragons and ice zombies.

In ED is the same. The whole premise of the game is that the galaxy needs pilots to fly spaceships doing various tasks necessary to keep civilization running. If suddenly we can just insta-teleport ships and modules around, then we just met the game of thrones batman. The whole game premise becomes a farse. And it invalidates parts of its own world, as things like ship and module availability in each location become merely decorative.
Click to expand...

Well, if it's truly that bad, then why use in that way? As I asked why not self impose your own mechanism? It's just like the old robigo runs...I actually took the missions and completed them. Why do that when I could have just made millions while sitting on the pad? Because I felt it was cheap. Same thing here, just because it can be done doesn't mean you have to participate in that way. Mode switching...it can be done but some don't for the same reasons. Rather than all the fuss and melodrama just not use the mechanism or in a way that suits your playstyle?
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Yaffle
thearmysredneck said:
Well, if it's truly that bad, then why use in that way? As I asked why not self impose your own mechanism? It's just like the old robigo runs...I actually took the missions and completed them. Why do that when I could have just made millions while sitting on the pad? Because I felt it was cheap. Same thing here, just because it can be done doesn't mean you have to participate in that way. Mode switching...it can be done but some don't for the same reasons. Rather than all the fuss and melodrama just not use the mechanism or in a way that suits your playstyle?
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One would assume that cuts both ways? You could, as I assume you are on about teleporting, order a ship, do other stuff, come back PRETEND to order it and ZAP! it's there instantly.

But that's not about immersion, which was the topic here.

Every time you need to make a magic exception you erode the game/book/play/film's reason to be, and reason it works. Too many and there is no point.
 
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