2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[VerticalBlank]

This is factual, no matter how much some people want to twist it into something else.

This disagreement is between (primarily) 2 camps; camp #1 likes to run marathons and likes space to be full of bigness.These CMDR's like to have to think ahead about how to properly balance their ships for travel/defensiveness/combat efficiency and don't mind taking the time necessary to manage their fleets and move them manually. They also don't mind supercruise, or hyperdrive jumping. In fact, in many cases they think this adds to the fantasy of being in space flying their version of the Millennium Falcon. Camp #2 does not like bigness and wants to effectively shrink it down to a more manageable size. Camp #2 wants gameplay similar to what one poster said about liking the idea of being able to stop in at a station, see what missions on the board grab his interest at that moment, dial up the appropriate ship from his fleet, do those missions, stop at another station and do the same thing, but this time a different style of mission and a completely different kind of ship. This kind of gameplay makes many (this one, at least) members of camp #1 want to projectile vomit.

The above dynamic is just a simple difference of opinion about what parts of the current game are "fun" and don't even scratch the surface of the problems inherent with insta transport.

My mind keeps going back and forth between David Braben's sparkly eyed enthusiasm about science and Sandro's casual dismissal of the concept of science in favor of handwavium.

Sorry, can't rep you any more. +1

 

[andrak]

If the excuse for instant transfer is that there was not enough time to implement a balanced time delay system then ship transfer should not be included at all in the first release of 2.2.

Do it properly FD, don't half ass it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Read more on xxx.com."

damn i tried to log on but it seems to be a pay site and its blocked at work......

hmmm my IT guy is just calling me about something BRB

 

[Cosmo]

Instant ship transfer? Noooooooooo...

[video=youtube;umDr0mPuyQc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc[/video]

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Frontier have two options; instant ship from. Or instant ship to.

Not really. I can think of many other options. Unfortunately, if they want a very cheap to implement option, they have only the one choice they have announced: a pull into where you are. Which is almost certainly why that is what they have said we are getting (I do not buy the 'gameplay' excuse). Essentially if you are in the shipyard menu and looking at the ships you have scattered around the galaxy, selecting one of the ships and clicking on a 'move it here' button, and it moves, is trivial to code. Doing the other way round, where you are in the shipyard where the ship is, and clicking a 'move to' button requires a jump out into the galaxy map so you can select where you want to move it to, and then a mechanism to redirect the normal galaxy map function to mean 'send it there'. Not a huge amount of extra work, but noticeably bigger than the minimalist 'pull'.

The one that makes most sense from a 'real world' (or immersion, if you prefer) is when you are in the same place as the ship you want to transport, and you hire an NPC to do the transportation. That is actually less good for the use cases that initially triggered the requests for the feature that of consolidating your fleet in a single place, since you have to travel to each of the ports where your ships are. It would still be much better than the hauler approach, but not wonderful.

The 'pull it to here' approach assumes some level of remote management of the process of arranging the transportation, since you are not there to do it yourself. If we assume that is possible, then there is a third major option (which you can argue is a superset of the two the OP suggested) which is to just arrange a transportation from X to Y without having to be in X or Y. That one is even more work from a workflow/menus point of view, which is why it is unlikely to happen.

 

[StiTch]

Why have a 1:1 scale galaxy, then implement instant ship transfers.
Why FDev, why?

Boom. Drops mic.

 

[VerticalBlank]

Well i can not reconcile Sandro's Inst-Ship with David B's vision of elite they are at odds, incompatible. I watched all the live streams and only one of these guys was able to keep a straight face, David i hope you will intervene and explain to Sandro that this has crossed a line that elite can not bear and remain the same game, it will not matter how much realism you add after this the damage will be done.

The feature of ship transfer is fine the implementation is disastrous for the foundation of the game. The unintended consequences are clear the only difference between the to camps is one does not care (Ignorance is bliss) and the other camp is projecting forward to what this does to the game and seeing something they don't like and possibly will not continue with. You cant take this back once you implement it.

Seconded.

 

[Ozram]

This is factual, no matter how much some people want to twist it into something else.

This disagreement is between (primarily) 2 camps; camp #1 likes to run marathons and likes space to be full of bigness.These CMDR's like to have to think ahead about how to properly balance their ships for travel/defensiveness/combat efficiency and don't mind taking the time necessary to manage their fleets and move them manually. They also don't mind supercruise, or hyperdrive jumping. In fact, in many cases they think this adds to the fantasy of being in space flying their version of the Millennium Falcon. Camp #2 does not like bigness and wants to effectively shrink it down to a more manageable size. Camp #2 wants gameplay similar to what one poster said about liking the idea of being able to stop in at a station, see what missions on the board grab his interest at that moment, dial up the appropriate ship from his fleet, do those missions, stop at another station and do the same thing, but this time a different style of mission and a completely different kind of ship. This kind of gameplay makes many (this one, at least) members of camp #1 want to projectile vomit.

The above dynamic is just a simple difference of opinion about what parts of the current game are "fun" and don't even scratch the surface of the problems inherent with insta transport.

My mind keeps going back and forth between David Braben's sparkly eyed enthusiasm about science and Sandro's casual dismissal of the concept of science in favor of handwavium.

Nice assessment. Indeed the insta space invaders crowd does make me want to projectile vomit so I definitely fit wholeheartedly in the first camp.

 

[kofeyh]

It doesn't make sense. Hocus-pocus presto voila ships magically appear at the station.

We are currently facing a mechanic that will be instant. This is how it is. Either we can take a step back and realise this isn't a battle people can win, and try for something like ship-to, or we can scream "this far and no further!" and be overridden anyway.

At least send-to requires some degree of coordination and planning. It's not as simplistic, but saves a huge amount of time. It tempers the 'gamey' magic arm waving of 3-2-1 surprise 'conda! without making the entire thing impossible.

It is, effectively a compromise. But I mean sure, demand that it be painful and take forever and punish people for just wanting to wrangle ships. I am sure that will get exactly zero traction with a developer who is inexorably making the game more simplistic and approachable, to keep the lights on.

It really is simple as that. The more I think of this, the more I really don't like instant transport; but it is going to be added, so at least send to preserves some reality. The alternative is simply being left behind, complaints of 'mah realism' ignored because cleary Sandro does not believe this is sacrosanct at any level what-so-ever.

The game is changing. It will keep changing. It's very very clear where Sandro and the Dev team in general are going. I don't believe Braben is ignorant here, either. Braben is the dreamer and holds the vision, Sandro makes it happen. And Sandro knows what people want. Simple, expedient mechanics and incredible depth in *RNG.

I'd rather see something at least partly sane, than completely insane because the alternative simply isn't entertained by the developer.

I have no doubt that the silence from the development team is due to internal discussion. I am hopeful this leads to at least something positive. Demanding features purely on realisim alone and not giving an inch is a guaranteed ticket to ignore-ville.

--
* I guess 50% strike rate isn't a bad effort?

 

[Boomer Kay]

Why have a 1:1 scale galaxy, then implement instant ship transfers.
Why FDev, why?

Ermm.. why?
Maybe you missed some facts again, but ship transfer happens between stations with a shipyard. Of the 5 billion star system in the game, there's how many who meet that criteria? Less than 1%?
Your comparison is "why go snorkling in the ocean when I can just deep dive in my bathtub ... silly!" (which migh be a valid argument for the avid a pneu bathtub diver, I'm not one of them, so I wouldn't know).

 

[Joghiarus]

Well i can not reconcile Sandro's Inst-Ship with David B's vision of elite they are at odds, incompatible. I watched all the live streams and only one of these guys was able to keep a straight face, David i hope you will intervene and explain to Sandro that this has crossed a line that elite can not bear and remain the same game, it will not matter how much realism you add after this the damage will be done.

The feature of ship transfer is fine the implementation is disastrous for the foundation of the game. The unintended consequences are clear the only difference between the to camps is one does not care (Ignorance is bliss) and the other camp is projecting forward to what this does to the game and seeing something they don't like and possibly will not continue with. You cant take this back once you implement it.

This. Anything I have to say on this matter is summarized here.

It the worst idea ever.

 

[Kyokushin]

If they want save the time, then they should just extend jump range and shorten load screen and countdowns between systems, not add instant magic, nonsensible ship teleportation.

 

[Ozram]

Post removed

Do you realise you are not in fact responding to something I wrote?

 

[raymondo the great]

So since I first looked at this numbers for each options have basically doubled.

So still the vast majority AGAISNT instant transport.

Interestingly on the steam poll I've been running (much smaller sample size) only 17% want instant.... and a whopping 52% went for option 4! (I did the categories the same as this poll)

So much for steam forum being full of casuals!

 

[Robert Maynard]

50% want fast ship transfers. But reading this forum thread makes you believe all hate it. I guess it's the same peeps posting over and over again =)

If a small percentage of the time taken to travel to the destination manually still equates to 25 minutes, does that still qualify as "fast"?

There have been several comments regarding any delay being unacceptable as the player will have nothing to do but wait until their ship arrives.

If a player chooses to do nothing while waiting for a ship delivery then that, of course, is their choice. Personally I'd use the ship I was in to do something while I was waiting for the optimal tool in my fleet to arrive and then undertake the task that I summoned it for in the first place.

A delay on ship transfer does not stop a player playing the game - they are already in one ship.

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

 

[StiTch]

If a small percentage of the time taken to travel to the destination manually still equates to 25 minutes, does that still qualify as "fast"?

There have been several comments regarding any delay being unacceptable as the player will have nothing to do but wait until their ship arrives.

If a player chooses to do nothing while waiting for a ship delivery then that, of course, is their choice. Personally I'd use the ship I was in to do something while I was waiting for the optimal tool in my fleet to arrive and then undertake the task that I summoned it for in the first place.

A delay on ship transfer does not stop a player playing the game - they are already in one ship.

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

This ^

Strangely enough the game CAN be both playable and believable.

For this reason I'd be happy for the time taken to match what it would be to pilot the ship at a fast rate from point A to point B. Completely believable, and prevents everyone basically using a Hauler to get to a combat location and insta-transporting their FDL with a undersized D rated FSD there...which, as I see it,is exploit material.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Well i can not reconcile Sandro's Inst-Ship with David B's vision of elite

No offence intended to DB, but I suspect that he relies on others for 'gameplay' ideas and design. Throughout the development of ED, I've enjoyed and approved his messages of his vision but on multiple occasions what actually gets introduced as gameplay doesn't always match or comes out of the blue.
Just my opinion obviously!

 

[Kyokushin]

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

This should be only a tool to manage the fleet. For example i have 20 vipers, gunsheep, fas, orca in shinrarta and vette, fdl, and some other at Achenar. I want have then in one place, so i just should just call them, and thy should just fly to me with their own speed.

Creating a tool for fast travel will decrease a diversity in the galaxy - every player ship we meet will be an asp/conda/dbe, and this will break a need to travel in ship like vette or fdl's at all.

In the other hand, IF a world rules can teleport instantly entire ship, so why they are using an interstellar travels at all? It is better and safer to just teleport any goods than transport them through the starship

Even in the Star Trek, a teleportation was limited to short ranges and small massess to keep lore consistent.

 

[WeirdWizard]

We are currently facing a mechanic that will be instant. This is how it is. Either we can take a step back and realise this isn't a battle people can win, and try for something like ship-to, or we can scream "this far and no further!" and be overridden anyway.

At least send-to requires some degree of coordination and planning. It's not as simplistic, but saves a huge amount of time. It tempers the 'gamey' magic arm waving of 3-2-1 surprise 'conda! without making the entire thing impossible.

It is, effectively a compromise. But I mean sure, demand that it be painful and take forever and punish people for just wanting to wrangle ships. I am sure that will get exactly zero traction with a developer who is inexorably making the game more simplistic and approachable, to keep the lights on.

I think you'll find ship to is a more of a nonstarter than adding some sort of delay. "Ship to" is a fundamentally different animal to "ship from" and doesn't solve the key issue that ship transfer was implemented to address.

 

[Funny]

If there had to be a compromise, I'd say that module transfer should be instant, but ship transfer should take a while. The reason for this is that transfering modules doesn't really break game balance that much, whereas the ship transfer does. However, this is only necessary when taking powerplay into account. For normal gameplay instant transfer doesn't break anything, and considering that by comparison only a smal fraction of the players engages actively in powerplay (combat), I see no reason for the transfer not to be instant.