2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?
- Thread starter Kintch
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I've already stated my piece about 300 pages back that I don't like instant as it just feels off, and I have concerns on how it will alter the game fundamentals. However i'm prepared to look at it from another angle.
The one most concerning is the lack of need to have a frame shift drive big enough to get around in a combat ship. However what this entails currently with me is flying the ship to a system then merely swapping out modules and fitting it out for optimum build. So all the instant teleport mechanic is doing is saving me the travel time, (as ill now use a long range Asp), and the refitting time, and allowing me to get right into the combat.
Similarly it does make community goals more flexible for a player especially if a system has both combat and trade. I can now fly there in my Annie do some trading then when I fancy a change, summon up my vulture and go kill me some pirates, before I was stuck just trading all week, or fighting all week.
One of the much discussed issues is the effect on combat ships. Specifically the lack of need to fit the best ranges FSD. This should actually get people using the faster FSD chargeup blueprint to allow quicker combat escape, which I think few if anyone was using. This in itself may be beneficial to PVPers by reducing numbers combat logging. Currently people in combat ships are going for max range mods, which when you think about it is not really what a combat ship is about.
I also looked at the power differentials for FSD drives and they are not that great. For example 6A FSD as fitted on Corvette uses 0.75 mw. A 2D uses 0.18. In the context of weapon loadout a Huge pulse laser uses 1.33mw while a huge beam used 2.9 me. The thing perhaps having biggest impact here is the effect of reduced mass on speed and agility.
The proof will be in the pudding though, and we will see how it pans out when humanity at large gets let loose. Humans are by nature agents of chaos , so i'm sure there will be new META's that develop that none of us have so far thought up.
I also think that for the vast majority of the time we will continue playing the way we always have done flying our favourite ships from station to station. Speaking personally I tend to operate in a zone roughly 60 lyrs around where my ships are based. I do this for trade and combat. If exploring I go further afield. I suspect the majority of us do something similar. What this change does do is give people the freedom to mix things up more and move further afield when they so desire. I think this could potentially make for a more dynamic bubble.
What we do know is that the game will be making a big leap into the unknown. Thinking about it though I don't think it makes as big a change as engineers, because that has allowed every ship in the game to be fundamentally reshaped.
On a separate note. The introduction of superjumps for White dwarfs and Neutron stars is a nice way of introducing "Stargates" into the game. They are stargates in a literal sense rather than something like the Relays in Mass effect. i'm surprised this hasn't been picked up upon and criticised more as I know many were against having such mechanics. Personally I'm fine with it.
The one most concerning is the lack of need to have a frame shift drive big enough to get around in a combat ship. However what this entails currently with me is flying the ship to a system then merely swapping out modules and fitting it out for optimum build. So all the instant teleport mechanic is doing is saving me the travel time, (as ill now use a long range Asp), and the refitting time, and allowing me to get right into the combat.
Similarly it does make community goals more flexible for a player especially if a system has both combat and trade. I can now fly there in my Annie do some trading then when I fancy a change, summon up my vulture and go kill me some pirates, before I was stuck just trading all week, or fighting all week.
One of the much discussed issues is the effect on combat ships. Specifically the lack of need to fit the best ranges FSD. This should actually get people using the faster FSD chargeup blueprint to allow quicker combat escape, which I think few if anyone was using. This in itself may be beneficial to PVPers by reducing numbers combat logging. Currently people in combat ships are going for max range mods, which when you think about it is not really what a combat ship is about.
I also looked at the power differentials for FSD drives and they are not that great. For example 6A FSD as fitted on Corvette uses 0.75 mw. A 2D uses 0.18. In the context of weapon loadout a Huge pulse laser uses 1.33mw while a huge beam used 2.9 me. The thing perhaps having biggest impact here is the effect of reduced mass on speed and agility.
The proof will be in the pudding though, and we will see how it pans out when humanity at large gets let loose. Humans are by nature agents of chaos , so i'm sure there will be new META's that develop that none of us have so far thought up.
I also think that for the vast majority of the time we will continue playing the way we always have done flying our favourite ships from station to station. Speaking personally I tend to operate in a zone roughly 60 lyrs around where my ships are based. I do this for trade and combat. If exploring I go further afield. I suspect the majority of us do something similar. What this change does do is give people the freedom to mix things up more and move further afield when they so desire. I think this could potentially make for a more dynamic bubble.
What we do know is that the game will be making a big leap into the unknown. Thinking about it though I don't think it makes as big a change as engineers, because that has allowed every ship in the game to be fundamentally reshaped.
On a separate note. The introduction of superjumps for White dwarfs and Neutron stars is a nice way of introducing "Stargates" into the game. They are stargates in a literal sense rather than something like the Relays in Mass effect. i'm surprised this hasn't been picked up upon and criticised more as I know many were against having such mechanics. Personally I'm fine with it.
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Heres the realism of Elite... as big as it is... one would think there is many individuals like yourself.. who have left Ships in docks.. there is no knowing the amount of Ships that has been docked by other Cmdr's or NPC's
These Docked ships are in reality used as Rentals and replaced as you stated from the nearest stations..
there is no limit to a Rental business system where imagination can make anything possible.. and still maintain a element of realism...
It is merely the finer points one would argue... but who gives a $**% about the finer points of Rental business systems
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Fine , the next time you die in the game go back to the main menu and delete your save ... No .. didn't think so.
You can't have it both ways. You can't complain about immersion when you are cheating every time you die.
Ok...
For the RP that I am... will there be options? Can you guys implement a realistic option to Instant? Lets say, realtime (based on jump distance, if possible)? It should be a hell of alot more cheaper than Instant, obviously, since I am prepared to wait.
This way, we who like Elite for what it is; big 1:1 galaxy, things takes time etc, because of realism, can still enjoy that part of the game!
At this point, I am throwing balancing and everything out the door.... I just want to experience the game the way I want, if and when I need to do a ship transfer.
This should not concern anyone who wants to do the instant one.
Both wins.
Pretty please with sugar on top!!!
For the RP that I am... will there be options? Can you guys implement a realistic option to Instant? Lets say, realtime (based on jump distance, if possible)? It should be a hell of alot more cheaper than Instant, obviously, since I am prepared to wait.
This way, we who like Elite for what it is; big 1:1 galaxy, things takes time etc, because of realism, can still enjoy that part of the game!
At this point, I am throwing balancing and everything out the door.... I just want to experience the game the way I want, if and when I need to do a ship transfer.
This should not concern anyone who wants to do the instant one.
Both wins.
Pretty please with sugar on top!!!
Of course it doesn't, you still have to take the trip regardless. And if you were taking a long trip you would still want your best exploration kitted ship regardless. So whats the difference, yeah it means you don't have to kit your top of the range combat ship with a decent FSD anymore. Good! Thats how it should be! Its a combat ship!
Much like the galaxy was made big on purpose because, well actually it is big and that makes being a space pilot kind of interesting.
The takeaway from this is that inconvenience is bad. Not having commodity storage means I can't truly optimize my combat ship which is bad. Collecting materials is a bit tedious anyway, so let's just skip that bit and just ask the engineer nicely.
Color me shocked, but it sounds like fun has won again! I know hyperbole is an abundant thing on the internet, especially so in discussion forums, but come on. Seriously? This is what ruins the game for you? This is the hill you're going to make your stand? I'm sure the cost will make it prohibitive to go blinking about willy-nilly, it's just an option that's there for you to use for convenience. To make the game more accessible. I've literally had days where I think "I'd really like to go participate in X" but X is really far away, and I only have a limited amount of time to play. This is really going to open up some possibilities for me and I am quite excited! Don't let the naysayers get you down, developers. You made the right call!
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There have been many, many explanations as to issues here. There isn't one singular, so to suggest there is no explanations is fairly insulting after 300 pages. You have it the wrong way round. It's not what makes the game great, it's what makes the game weaker, and that has been explained on many levels. However the bottomline is ships don't teleport. Concessions of gameplay can make things spawn or the ilk, but this is a deliberate concession against the direction and ethos of Elite.
However as has been said over and over. You get reward from risk. That's the ethos of gaming. There's no risk in having your ship sent. I wonder if an RNG element was added and your ship might get destroyed en route was added, how many would be fist-pumping the ideology of insta-ship when there was a risk. There is no risk. It's a purely gaming element that is being pressed into a game that operates under notions of how space could be in the future. It's an imbalance, pure and simple. People know that. FDev knows it, and have conceded it is. Everyone knows it. You know it. Question is do you care about it? You clearly don't. That's fine, but don't try and devalue the credibility of those who do by suggesting there's no explanations as to why. That's not cricket!
Again, same. Such devaluing terms as "nonsense" and "video game" are really low debating. Anyone can make such assertions. Hell, by that assertion, you might as well play an arcade game, as I bet you do care about immersion, and there would be immersion factors you would dislike. This isn't one of them. But if you're here, playing a highly complex, high concept game as Elite, you do care about qualities. Especially to argue it here on a forum for pages. So I think nonsense and the ilk isn't befitting. You don't agree, fine. Doesn't mean the issue isn't here. Clearly it is, as a lot of Elite gamers are finding this a concern, casual and hardcore.
about 300 page threads is stuff gets missed. I explained why this isn't anything near the same issue 30 pages back. Consider a simulator. You enter it, you exit it. It doesn't break the immersion inside it. This is the same. We're not dumb. We know it's a game. The "die" isn't a die in Elite, hence the rebuy screen, but its still a concession that doesn't matter because being "killed" breaks the immersion and the person is out of the game because the game has "paused". This is internal to the game. Very, very different.
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Oh, I'm aware. Of course 3D printing will make the future look radically different than the ED universe does but then when there is universal 3D printing capability, the entire basis of the ED universe collapses and we don't need cargo pilots.
Oh actually, maybe that's why passengers is coming in this patch because that's the only type of transport that still makes any sense.
Slopey
Volunteer Moderator
But you take the trip in a 40+ LY Asp, then summon the 10LY jump ship at the other end. That's not how it should be. There are systems you cannot get to with a small FSD, but now you can, regardless. Also when you get there you can have ANY ship you want instantly available - not just the one you flew there.
How is that not obviously detrimental to gameplay, unless you're a player who wants everything everywhere anyway - in which case, why not just give everyone 100 Bn credits and be done with it?
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You're presenting this example under the assumption that no corporation, paramilitary organisation or any other minor faction can get anything done without the Plot Federation approved commanders (AKA The Players); it should not be dismissed that there are major events playing out in the galaxy, that either have no player involvement or are consequences of such, but they do still play out without a need of an accompanying CG; that is, the CGs are special cases rather than how everything gets done.
Anyway, I know your original argument was that nearly everything seems to run on handwaveium right now, but as you can see, I seem to have provided a (hopefully) reasonable counter-argument to the example you proposed. The issue here, that we are all very passionate about, is that instant transport crosses the line way too far.
Here's the absurd direction this crap is going in:
You may as well cut out that DBE/Asp/Jumpconda from the loop. Just go in a goddamned menu where you can put in your settings (sector type, mission type/player ship/NPC opposition) and load right to your pewpew of choice. Like if the main game was swallowed whole by CQC or if CQC and SC had an orgy. There is no point in travel and distances and anything that makes elite dangerous elite dangerous anymore. Do a loading menu and be instantly where you want, with who you want and in your ship of choice because clearly all that traveling and planning is a nuisance.
You may as well cut out that DBE/Asp/Jumpconda from the loop. Just go in a goddamned menu where you can put in your settings (sector type, mission type/player ship/NPC opposition) and load right to your pewpew of choice. Like if the main game was swallowed whole by CQC or if CQC and SC had an orgy. There is no point in travel and distances and anything that makes elite dangerous elite dangerous anymore. Do a loading menu and be instantly where you want, with who you want and in your ship of choice because clearly all that traveling and planning is a nuisance.
None of what has been said explains to me how it removes anything that makes Elite great. It's great now and it will be great after. That's the difference between me and you. I play games because I enjoy games, it's an escape from reality. It's my leisure time. X3 was a great game as well, SETA didn't ruin any balance and it didn't ruin any immersion. You could exploit it, sure, but that only ruins the game for people that allow it to do so. You can easily just not exploit it and you can stop worrying about what other people do with their play time. I promise that this will not allow people to ruin your game play anymore than people already do without it.
If you want to prove that it will do so, feel free to get yourself and everyone agrees with you together and prove to the rest of the community during the Beta how this will completely ruin the game for everyone. As for now, it's all subjective and my opinion is that everything will be fine.
EDIT: BTW, if there was a risk to transfer ships, that would be fine too. The only thing that wouldn't be fine is it taking the same amount of time to fly it there myself, that's the only suggestion I'm actually against. The rest of it is me being against the utter panic this thread has devolved into.
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Thing is you have to reach said station to summon said ship. So you still have to do a "long trip" you just don't have to do it multiple times.
you still have trade runs, you have all the res zones, there's still gameplay, tedious ship transporting runs isn't the sole gameplay element here. FDev just now offers an optional mechanic to cut some of the tedium out of moving ships enmass. This mechanic is making me want to come back since i have ships strewn all over the place.
I can't fathom how this has caused so many to be distraught and act like the sky is falling. Open players have thier immersion broken when people go into solo and group to avoid emergent gameplay events like player run blockades. But you lot don't have a hyperbolic crusade about that.
Tedium doesn't not equate to gameplay or fun.
Just in time for teleporting of pilots to support multicrews meaning that passenger transport is redundant too. I hope FD are thinking hard about a new name for this game, because it sounds nothing like Elite.
Slopey
Volunteer Moderator
And arcade/magic mechanics don't equate to a game which some of us want to play.
Interesting that even the moderators seem to detest it. I have seen multiple mod's post against it, exactly one with a post that could even possibly be construed as in favour of instatransfers. If even the house mod's dislike it, shouldn't that be a Clue to certain dev's?
Well, the next step could be a WoW dungeon finder style LFG tool. Pick a system, pick a content type (CZ, RES), pick the ship you want to fly, press button. 30 seconds later, you are automatically teleported into the CZ/RES and put into a wing with 3 other people who selected the same.
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