The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[Julio Montega]

Most insightful comment in 38 pages. It is the suspension of disbelief that will suffer. +rep

The problem is there is a very well used argument pro
time delay:
It would add naturally to the simulation,
which then can evolve into hosting a faction/business company ingame
you can interact with, enriching the galaxy.
Be it NPC convoys flying around, ships with a special tag to intercept
to hamper a player group in open to get their fleet to somewhere or else.

Instant transfer would simply not set this ground stone for evolvement,
as it would simply require a total rework, where the devs could just scrap
most of the code they did for insta-port-a-shunz.
Gamey wise it is catering towards people who are at A and want their ship at A now.

Obviously, it's got everything to do with how they think to implement the 'aliens' into the game.

IF they go with the method I'm picturing in my head (and it's the most fun among all others I can think of) you'll want to have your ship you can actually use to fight aliens right then and there.

What I'm picturing in my head is system wide attacks which will either have no warning or a very short heads-up but it'll be announced like a CG. Maybe an alien invasion sign on the galaxy map?

Then everyone who wants to participate in some anti (or maybe pro?) alien combat will have to go there ASAP to not miss the fun. If these are created based on the CG mechanic, they can have the effect of shutting down entire systems if not pushed back.

Of course, this is pure speculation and I have no idea if they'll do anything like this.

If this isn't the reason, I don't even want ship transfers, instant or otherwise. We are fine the way we are now.

But why skip the interesting part of the game, to hold out against the invasion
against all odds with a fleet of hastily jury-rigged trader ships, until the reinforcements come
in, a.k.a. ship transport?
Or running the blockade so you can fetch your combat craft on a secure outpost to form
a party to counter the "siege"?

I don't see any enrichment in instant-a-port-a-shunz,
apart from the odd "i want my ship NOW".

 

[Privata]

With respect Ian, that's garbage. Betas are for testing functions, not atmosphere. That's why we used Fish to pay for mods in the Engineers Beta. Your suggestion completely misses that point.


It seems to me as if FD have decided they are behind schedule and have chosen the solution that uses the least development time. They know (in my opinion) that some sort of delay/any sort of delay would be better than the abra abracadabra - I want my Anaconda solution. It flies in the face of the inspiring comments DB has made as recently as Gamescon, it doesn't tally with what I've understood to be Michael Brookes' viewpoint over the last couple of years, ("Space is BIG") and Sandro's explanation on Lavecon was entirely unconvincing, paraphrasing "well, too short a time would be .......too short, and too long a time would be ......too long, so we went for instant." I love you Sandro, but that was pretty pathetic. Oh yes, and he said some guy during development wanted the journey from a star to a planet to take hours - well, that proves it then. Fun trumps reality. Instant it is.


No, I think this is a business decision, made consciously at the cost of the game's credibility. I don't believe this feature reflects the game they want to make.

And thats what scares me.
What next?

-Fast travel to any starport even if its against the lore
-Removal of FSD countdown
-Unlimited timers
-Even higher rewards for everything
-Log in rewards
-seasonal events where in easter you go on an egg hunt and in xmass all the ships are red

 

[Ironwolf]

How much to print that 1000 ton ship?
How much is that 1000 tonnes of gold?

Lets see in the beta.

I think I want to print.....

 

[GraXXoR]

Surely if you don't like the facility, just don't use it.

Would post a futurama Fry meme...

 

[Zoro Finne]

OK. I like the immersion aspects as are found in the game now. Instant ship transfer breaks that aspect. We get a sidewinder with no range after being tanked, or as a noob. Maybe give us a way to buy a shuttlecraft, no weapons capability, with loaned shields, loaned scoop, loaned chaff, loaned planetary landing, beefy fuel tank, and make to hull paper-thin, somehow give it a 40ly range stock, 1 ton cargo for a data only mission, cost it at 100,000cr, sell-back is 90,000cr minus anything you've pawned off of the stock buy. Arrange the slots so that the loaned equipment is already maxed for the class, no need to upgrade or downgrade the slots.

You still would need to fly. You would fly a cheap ship capable of basic evasion, which can be blown out of the sky by someone who is itching for some target practice (maybe). You might need to make a few attempts, but that's what you get for flying a cheap ship. You roll the dice.

Spawn the shuttles alot, at say almost every shipyard, maybe sometimes you need to jump once or twice no more than 5ly to get to a shuttle buy.

If it takes you a week to migrate 20 ships, well, hey, you wanted a space game, you got a space game. I suppose if you were Bugs Bunny or James Tiberius Kirk you could have anything you want on your terms, but you're in fact NOT James T. Kirk so get a bag of chips and a pepsi and shuttle for a few minutes in order to move your fleet.


There's a chance

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Ok, cheers, I guess everything's said, I hope Michael reads rest of discussion here, especially regarding lore. As for feature itself I think each of positions are clear, FD knows our feelings, we know their arguments, let's wait for beta and hopefully decision to delay or mitigate implementation can be made in more measured manner.

Cheers, have fun guys out there. I am out.

 

[Atebits]

It does feel that they're trying to make the galaxy smaller.

In the space of two or three weeks we've gone from the new bubble being a grim unforgiving space requiring planning to get there as well as what you'll need to bring with you, to a cookie-cutter standard station where everything you need to function is available and shortly we'll be able to just teleport our fleets over there to carry on playing in a 'frontier' which is the same as the current bubble in terms of mechanics, but with a different skybox.

All the while killing the need, and purpose of the multi-role ships.

Summarized everything I could have said about this.

You said it true commander.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

So?
Before you would set out in mutliroles or long range fighters for combat missions... no you will use your ASP?

I know that I will use this system from time to time , but I should not... its terrible in my opinion , it removes the fact that you can get stranded in space.

Before you would see a CZ and either buy a cheap new ship or go back and get your better one. now its just instant magic.
If the system was timed in real time or even just half that it would be much better.

If you think its good gameplay , then you are lucky.

But for me it takes away so much from the game , its one step away from the the lifesim that braben talks about and one step into no mans's sky

Well sorry but thats your hangup unfortunately.

Do you use 'fast travel' options in other games like Skyrim for example? I don't, if I did I know I would be robbing myself of gameplay.

Take another example, Forza Motorsport. I can make that game as simple as I like, practically make it play itself, or I could make it so hard that its practically unplayable. The point is there is the choice (I generally lean towards sim).

Are the examples I have just given bad games because those options exist in them? Of course they are not., they are some of the best games in their genres.

If the very fact that you are offended that the option is in the game then thats not Frontiers fault. If you choose to use said option therefore robbing yourself of gameplay thats not Frontiers fault.

Frontier would have to go a hell of a long way to make ED anything like NMS. Its a general overeaction by the community, come 2.2 people will have forgotten about it and just moved on.

 

[Lobstris]

I am never going to get it out of my head.

The mass of a big ship, that is the equivalent of a lot of cargo canisters.

Whatever the cost of 3D printing that ship out, better far exceed the value of that cargo.

It's stuck in there now isn't it? Like decay in a wisdom tooth? Or that Rick Astley song. It ain't never gonna give you up...

 

[Jypson]

Nah. You've seen these forums. They can't please any of us anytime.

We are a bunch of krumugins aren't we [sulk]

 

[Parmo]

.... which makes me wonder what we have in store when we get Multi-Crew....

If travelling to fetch a ship to our current location is not instant enough, I can only imagine what will happen when players need to travel to the ship they are going to embark as crew....

Good point. But haven't the Explorer community shown how to organise get-togethers in far distant locations? Having the patience, dedication to bring off some amazing feats and which we have seen on YT with much appreciation?

Making and keeping appointments eh?

 

[Cosmos]

FD having players buy paintjobs instantly without going to the store?

If they wan't people to buy more cosmetics, in my opinion, they need to lower the prices. Whilst everything is worth what someone will pay if we bought all the stuff available I doubt we'd see much change of £500. Dunno about you but I can think of better things to spend it on.

But I suppose its what ever makes them more money and I don't have an issue with that. I'll just wait for a sale if I really want something.

 

[Khazid]

The answer to the transfer problem:

1) Carrier Class player ships. High FSD Range (35ish loaded). You can load a few ships inside, up to FDL/python size and travel in it. They would dock outside stations and you can launch the ships to go do what you like. No need for a transfer system at all, even though the above system would be quite less convenient (but common, you have your own carrier..)

2) You can still pay an NPC carrier to transfer your ships with delay based on jump range and distance.

Point 2 is very simplified (jump range of the career is constant, no need to recalculate delay of delivery based on each individual ship jump range, just a fixed 35 lys). As for any delay inserted. Too small and it won't stop people from piloting Asps everywhere, then calling their FDL to fight. So SC would be full of Asps, normal space FDLs.. Multipurpose ships are doomed, unless they are allowed to hold their cargo between transfers, which would open another can of worms.

Instead of a big delay (>30 mins) there could be scheduled carrier departures, 4 times a day for instance. You can log in and schedule your ship transfers, which would proceed even if you log out. Less immersion braking, and if you know your gaming time even roughly, you can just do it the day before. the carrier scheduling makes it so the service is limited, you cannot just jump from ship to ship for a small credit fee (3-4X the fuel cost?).

Please, no more 3D Printing excuse...

(I did not read the whole thread so sorry in advance if anyone suggested something similar)

 

[Darth Ender]

How much to print that 1000 ton ship?
How much is that 1000 tonnes of gold?

Lets see in the beta.

I think I want to print.....

Whatever the cost, it needs to be high enough that it's not advantageous for me to Scuttle in a super high jump range ship to my PowerPlay capital, transfer my super large ship with massive cargo but kinda crap jump range ship. Load up on PP fortifying cargo... Make my many jumps to some system to fortify. Then transfer my super high range ship to my current location. Skip back to the capital and repeat.

If that becomes a valid gameplay behavior, then congrats ... They would have managed to completely break powerplay for 2 dot releases in a row!! Would be a record to be proud of.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

We don't anticipate some of the apocalyptic scenarios being described to oppose this feature - it will change things certainly, but in a positive way. It hasn't reduced the scale of the galaxy, the facility is limited and most of the galaxy doesn't have access, and you still have to make the initial journeys.

Michael

Thanks for the comments, Michael, though I am very disappointed.

Presumably you have seen the speculation about how multicrew teleporting could impact on this down the road. Do you have a comment on that, or do we have to wait and see?

 

[CMDR Dahak]

I'm really not understanding the rage in this thread.

I'm currently at Jacques. It took me 2 weeks to get there in my asp explorer. If I do the trip again since the engineers got changed, it will take me less (once I get back to Felicity and upgrade my drive.)

With ship summoning, it would still take me 2 weeks to get there. travel time does not change.

On arrival, I can pay a fee to have my ship instantly brought to me. I can think of 2-3 good Lore ways this could be explained:

1) It's not the original ship. When you pay for an instant ship transfer, you get sent one kitted out and painted like yours from the nearest station, courtesy of the Pilot's Federation. Pilot's Federation takes ownership of your original ship and strips it down for the next pilot.

2) They use a high-end, single-jump disposable FSD. Hook it to your ship, fire your ship to your direction, disengage and jettison on arrival.

3)Thargoids.

 

[Cosmos]

The answer to the transfer problem:

1) Carrier Class player ships. High FSD Range (35ish loaded). You can load a few ships inside, up to FDL/python size and travel in it. They would dock outside stations and you can launch the ships to go do what you like. No need for a transfer system at all, even though the above system would be quite less convenient (but common, you have your own carrier..)

2) You can still pay an NPC carrier to transfer your ships with delay based on jump range and distance.

Point 2 is very simplified (jump range of the career is constant, no need to recalculate delay of delivery based on each individual ship jump range, just a fixed 35 lys). As for any delay inserted. Too small and it won't stop people from piloting Asps everywhere, then calling their FDL to fight. So SC would be full of Asps, normal space FDLs.. Multipurpose ships are doomed, unless they are allowed to hold their cargo between transfers, which would open another can of worms.

Instead of a big delay (>30 mins) there could be scheduled carrier departures, 4 times a day for instance. You can log in and schedule your ship transfers, which would proceed even if you log out. Less immersion braking, and if you know your gaming time even roughly, you can just do it the day before. the carrier scheduling makes it so the service is limited, you cannot just jump from ship to ship for a small credit fee (3-4X the fuel cost?).

Please, no more 3D Printing excuse...

(I did not read the whole thread so sorry in advance if anyone suggested something similar)

It would actually be quite cool to see huge transport ships ferrying ships about for delivery..

 

[Privata]

Well sorry but thats your hangup unfortunately.

Do you use 'fast travel' options in other games like Skyrim for example? I don't, if I did I know I would be robbing myself of gameplay.

Take another example, Forza Motorsport. I can make that game as simple as I like, practically make it play itself, or I could make it so hard that its practically unplayable. The point is there is the choice (I generally lean towards sim).

Are the examples I have just given bad games because those options exist in them? Of course they are not., they are some of the best games in their genres.

If the very fact that you are offended that the option is in the game then thats not Frontiers fault. If you choose to use said option therefore robbing yourself of gameplay thats not Frontiers fault.

Frontier would have to go a hell of a long way to make ED anything like NMS. Its a general overeaction by the community, come 2.2 people will have forgotten about it and just moved on.

But skyrim is a singleplayer game that I play with mods to make it more hardcore and deep (lore friendly mods , of course)
Morrowind is the only elder scrolls main episode that did not feature fast travel (in the point on map variation)

In elite , however this robs the game from some aspects of the game. and remeber that elite 1 , 2 and 3 never had this sort of feature. and the kickstarter and vlogs said everything in game will make sense and work on real life logic , not being full on real but just logicial.
Even if I did not use it , it will effect me. (Powerplay ship meta , BGS , immersion killing)

This is just not what I backed. belive me , I am fine with the idea of ship transfer at its core. just I think it needs to be done in a way that fits in with lore (in a way that does not make more holes)

Even if I could ignore it , its still there in my head... its still a feature that takes so much away. like with my example with my FDL , no longer can I get stranded because I will just get my ASP and leave. because to be stranded the gameplay needs to support that.

I dont like how they are doing this feature , I think it takes a lot away.
If you like it good on you , but dont try and force me to like something that is the oposite of why I love elite as a franchise

If anything magic ship transfer has made me forget about the other things that I dont like in 2.2
Like the cartoon logic passanger eject , that just seems to be a way to avoid adding in slaves in a universe that has them
Or the fact you have a human in the cockpit of the ship launched fighters even if they are unmanned

And it has distracted me from the still currently broken AI that never gives a good fight

 

[Lobstris]

.... which makes me wonder what we have in store when we get Multi-Crew....

If travelling to fetch a ship to our current location is not instant enough, I can only imagine what will happen when players need to travel to the ship they are going to embark as crew....

Gameplay trumps Realism.
So don't think about it when you instantly transfer to another players ship.

TBH, on the continuum of 'things I'm prepared to accept' I'd lump pilot transfer in with death - concessions have to be made to make it work or else there wouldn't be a game at all. So I'm absolutely fine with instant pilot transfer as a thing. Hypocritical you say? Well no...

A multi-crewed ship will still appear to other players as a single player ship in their game, and therefore has less consequence in my mind than erroneous transfer of multiple ships. However, if the implementation of the multi-crewed ship buff it so much that it's capabilities rival, equal or exceed multiple single crewed ships 'for gameplay reasons', then I think we've got all the makings of another 'threadzilla' - and I'll be starting it (probably, sorry Robert! )

*Edit* I am assuming with the above that multicrew works via some kind of lobby system, where up to 4 people meet out of game, select one players ship to use, then all are 'teleported' to the location of that ship, leaving their own current, 'main' ships wherever they teleported from. At the end of a session (or when the p2p instancing gives up the ghost ) all are 'teleported' back to the main menu, and on logging in are back where they first started. If actual ships get teleported then, bad Frontier, bad!

 

[Ziljan]

As for the taxi Asp Ive been contemplating that and no i,m not going to use that, interdiction is to common place i would rather be in my multi-purpose battleconda when traveling, for those of you that will use that little exploit good luck don't come whining about getting destroyed latter because you had some engineer commodities on board.

So instead of exploiting the game by using the 2nd longest jump range in the game, you will be using the ship with the Longest Jump Range in the Game as a taxi. I think you were making a point about not exploiting the game, but I can't be sure.