The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[Jypson]

I've come around to the idea that instant isn't immersion breaking if we don't think of it as instant. I say that since instead of coming up with an in-game explanation of how your ship was either teleported or 3D printed and somehow replicated down to the quantum level, I think that ship rentals would suffice as an in-game explanation. Yes, you would rent a ship that is a complete copy of the ship you need including engineered mods but that's easier to explain or handwave away than replicating a ship from scratch. As someone else pointed out, if you dock your ship with massive damage, do you get those repaired for free when you "transfer" or does the replication replicate all the flaws as well? There's no difficulty explaining how a rental agency has a ship that is "nearly" identical to a ship you own and I'm sure they would offer engineered mods that are "perfectly close" to mods you own.

Additionally, if rentals are found to be exploitable, whether true or false, as instant ship transfers are suspected by some players, rentals give FD greater abilities to limit exploits beyond the stated cost/distance controls. I'll leave that up to the reader or FD to decide how that would be implemented although I have my own ideas.

First stage all FD needs to do is explain that it's not a transfer but a rental; this should only require some in-game text changes to the mechanism. Your original ship stays where it is and for 2.2 we just assume no required return date. First scenario: If you take the "rental" to any shipyard and switch to any owned ship the rental is returned. Second scenario: If you switch to another "rental" the previously rented ship is returned. Third scenario: You buy a new ship while in a "rental" and when you switch to the new owned ship the rental is returned. This will likely not require significant coding changes since in the currently described implementation your original ship needs to be "dismantled" anyway. Either way the server has to account for the gain of 1 ship and the loss of another ship elsewhere.​

Second stage FD can add rental periods based on fees with fines and wanted status for not returning the rented ship. They can also add contracts with the rental agency to source ships and create mods for those ships. This adds to additional gameplay and a tie-in with the Engineers.​

Final stage would be a full fleet management service in-game to move any owned ship from any location to another location with the proper landing pad or hanger. This can add to gameplay in missions to destroy or pirate transport ships, especially if they are military convoys pretending to be civilian ship movements. It could also add gameplay in the possibility of players buying large transport vessels and taking missions to deliver ships from base to base. It could also add mission to deliver 1 ship from one location to another as a courier mission.​

Annnd if you've lost me again. There's a difference between complexity and convoluted. If people think 'instant transfer' is immersion breaking, keep it instant, and lets add a fade to black that reads "Your ship was delivered some time later." There we go, nice and tidy with no added clutter.

Ship rentals, good, but as a replacement for transfers, it's just too convoluted.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Frontier support are probably sick of transporting ships all over the shop because commanders can't do this themselves. I would be interested as to how many people who are against it for "immersion" reasons have ever had frontier support move a ship, for any reason.

Or better still, would be prepared to admit they have. Just curious.

I didn't even know that was a thing! I asked for support once, but that's because an interdiction got me suck inside a star.

 

[lysan]

Annnd if you've lost me again. There's a difference between complexity and convoluted. If people think 'instant transfer' is immersion breaking, keep it instant, and lets add a fade to black that reads "Your ship was delivered some time later." There we go, nice and tidy with no added clutter.

Ship rentals, good, but as a replacement for transfers, it's just too convoluted.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



I didn't even know that was a thing! I asked for support once, but that's because an interdiction got me suck inside a star.

Me too, didn't know people actually asked for this? should be rejected by CS.

 

[kofeyh]

Me too, didn't know people actually asked for this? should be rejected by CS.

I'm sure frontier support tell everyone to naff off when they want some ship moved because it's stuck or something? Can't instant teleport unless suddenly it's convenient to do so.

I mean I'm all for realistic mechanics but I do wonder how much that actually enters in to people's daily experience. I'd wager that no-one who argues for realisim ever combat logs for any reason either, right?

People crave immersion and to feel part of the game right up until suddenly it's okay not to because hey I don't want to die, or hey my ship is stuck or hey that AI was cheating so I want my ship back.

I tend to find people want a thing, because there is some romantic notion about it, not because they actually like the mechanic, so much as the idea of it; given an opportunity to sidestep it when convenient, they might do so in a heart beat.

People are fickle and highly prone to romanticise ideas, and when reality hits, have no problem bypassing it should the opportunity exist.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Annnd if you've lost me again. There's a difference between complexity and convoluted. If people think 'instant transfer' is immersion breaking, keep it instant, and lets add a fade to black that reads "Your ship was delivered some time later." There we go, nice and tidy with no added clutter.

What you are missing is that in your "nice and tidy" instant transfer is that the mechanism is a dead-end. There's no possibility for additional gameplay to be added from an instant transfer. You'll have your ship and you can continue to do the same misssions, CZ, and CG that are in the game but there will never be any gameplay added to tie-in with ship transportation or rentals.

The more FD adds dead-end QoL features that add no additional gameplay all you get are gameplay accessibilty to the same old gameplay that exists, that's a recipe for a dead game. I'm trying to think of the future and an expanding content universe.

As I see it that's one of the major complaints of this game. FD sees fit to add in new features but doesn't do a good job at tying them into the central game world. Engineers is a tacked on module essentially that allows you customize your ship but offers no real gameplay opportunities besides having a better FSD or weapons. Powerplay is the same in that it can standalone or be ignored by many people. To fix that we need to add tie-ins between game changes whether QoL or expansions.

 

[Jypson]

I'm sure frontier suppor tell everyone to naff off when they want some ship moved because it's stuck or something?

I mean I'm all for realistic mechanics but I do wonder how much that actually enters in to people's daily experience. I'd wager that no-one who argues for realisim ever combat logs for any reason either, right?

People crave immersion and to feel part of the game right up until suddenly it's okay not to because hey I don't want to die, or hey my ship is stuck or hey that AI was cheating so I want my ship back.

I tend to find people want a thing, because there is some romantic notion about it, not because they actually like the mechanic, so much as the idea of it; given an opportunity to sidestep it when convenient, they might do so in a heart beat.

People are fickle and highly prone to romanticise ideas, and when reality hits, have no problem bypassing it should the opportunity exist.

Wait, if someone's ship gets trapped in a star, they shouldn't call support?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

What you are missing is that in your "nice and tidy" instant transfer is that the mechanism is a dead-end. There's no possibility for additional gameplay to be added from an instant transfer. You'll have your ship and you can continue to do the same misssions, CZ, and CG that are in the game but there will never be any gameplay added to tie-in with ship transportation or rentals.

The more FD adds dead-end QoL features that add no additional gameplay all you get are gameplay accessibilty to the same old gameplay that exists, that a recipe for a dead game. I'm trying to think of the future and an expanding content universe.

> I disagree. I've outlined multiple times how to give both camps what they want.

> I just plain old disagree with you there. You see it as a dead-end QoL feature, and see it as an excellent QoL feature for those who want it. c'est la vie

Ship rentals are great! I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying it's not a replacement as you've described it.

 

[kofeyh]

Wait, if someone's ship gets trapped in a star, they shouldn't call support?

No. They should accept the consequences. Because the game didn't break. Their ship experienced some sort of temporal anomaly or FSD malfunction.

Remember the idea is that there should be reasons for things, not magic buttons that aren't tied to some logical context or reason.

And yet ship gets stuck? Frontier fix it because it's not convenient. This isn't to say bugs and issues with the game should not be fixed, but I really can't take someone seriously if they are super into immersion and then will ignore it at will if hey the game chucked my ship into a star, no fair!

Either we take a step back and realise the futility that is trying to make every single possible mechanic immersive and maybe shoot for most of it where it is sane to do so, and let some of it slide for the sake of playability - or we end up with the logical disconnect that is a highly immersive game were people are regularly bypassing large chunks of it, because it makes the game unplayable.

Or worse. End up with a dog's breakfast of varying levels of immersion to the point where it's so convoluted and frustrating that most of the people I started playing ED with - have stopped playing.

Just my two cents. That's all. I'll shut up now and leave people to debate the topic as they see fit.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Frontier support are probably sick of transporting ships all over the shop because commanders can't do this themselves. I would be interested as to how many people who are against it for "immersion" reasons have ever had frontier support move a ship, for any reason.

Or better still, would be prepared to admit they have. Just curious.

No I haven't.... but if someone gets stranded due to a bug and has to get moved ie when FD were manually fiddling with systems some ships got lost are you suggesting them getting FD to fix their mistake is somehow them cheating?

As for getting stuck in a star..... your logic I spose depends how it happens ... I see what you are saying but either way personally I would not waste FDs time with it either way... if it happened I would just launch vanilla game.

 

[Gedemon]

No. They should accept the consequences. Because the game didn't break. Their ship experienced some sort of temporal anomaly or FSD malfunction.

Remember the idea is that there should be reasons for things, not magic buttons that aren't tied to some logical context or reason.

And yet ship gets stuck? Frontier fix it because it's not convenient. This isn't to say bugs and issues with the game should not be fixed, but I really can't take someone seriously if they are super into immersion and then will ignore it at will if hey the game chucked my ship into a star, no fair!

Either we take a step back and realise the futility that is trying to make every single possible mechanic immersive and maybe shoot for most of it where it is sane to do so, and let some of it slide for the sake of playability - or we end up with the logical disconnect that is a highly immersive game were people are regularly bypassing large chunks of it, because it makes the game unplayable.

Just my two cents. That's all. I'll shut up now and leave people to debate the topic as they see fit.

I've never found any bug in any game as being "immersive", you've a funny way to describe "immersion".

Still, I've never asked for support to move my ships for me, and I've never combat logged, so can we remove instant transfert please ?

 

[Jypson]

No. They should accept the consequences. Because the game didn't break. Their ship experienced some sort of temporal anomaly or FSD malfunction.

Remember the idea is that there should be reasons for things, not magic buttons that aren't tied to some logical context or reason.

And yet ship gets stuck? Frontier fix it because it's not convenient. This isn't to say bugs and issues with the game should not be fixed, but I really can't take someone seriously if they are super into immersion and then will ignore it at will if hey the game chucked my ship into a star, no fair!

Either we take a step back and realise the futility that is trying to make every single possible mechanic immersive and maybe shoot for most of it where it is sane to do so, and let some of it slide for the sake of playability - or we end up with the logical disconnect that is a highly immersive game were people are regularly bypassing large chunks of it, because it makes the game unplayable.

Just my two cents. That's all. I'll shut up now and leave people to debate the topic as they see fit.

Yeah, you're right CMDR, I should have just uninstalled the game as my character would have been trapped forever. No sense in playing anymore I guess.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

No. They should accept the consequences. Because the game didn't break. Their ship experienced some sort of temporal anomaly or FSD malfunction.

Remember the idea is that there should be reasons for things, not magic buttons that aren't tied to some logical context or reason.

And yet ship gets stuck? Frontier fix it because it's not convenient. This isn't to say bugs and issues with the game should not be fixed, but I really can't take someone seriously if they are super into immersion and then will ignore it at will if hey the game chucked my ship into a star, no fair!

Either we take a step back and realise the futility that is trying to make every single possible mechanic immersive and maybe shoot for most of it where it is sane to do so, and let some of it slide for the sake of playability - or we end up with the logical disconnect that is a highly immersive game were people are regularly bypassing large chunks of it, because it makes the game unplayable.

Just my two cents. That's all. I'll shut up now and leave people to debate the topic as they see fit.

The Game has to do something too for immersion, its not a one sided thing. How much it has to do is of course a difficult matter, but adding in more stuff where you have to imagine something because it doesn't really fit in the world doesn't help enhance immersion, that much is sure.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Sometimes I wonder if FD should just remove the emergency drop out.....

That would make people take more care

 

[kofeyh]

Yeah, you're right CMDR, I should have just uninstalled the game as my character would have been trapped forever. No sense in playing anymore I guess.

Self destruct. Freedom. Button is the right hand menu down the bottom. Solved. You wake up at the last station with a nice shiny replacement ship. Of course there is a cost. Right?

Or are you saying that immersion takes a back seat to practicality. Because I am pretty sure that's exactly the point you made. Immersion, having some in game reason for why you got stuck isn't as practical as just getting the issue fixed.

So much for reality.

So when people ask the same thing, why can't some of the mechanics be practical, and people flip out, doesn't it strike you as a double standard?

Because, really. It is. It's okay, there's nothing wrong with asking frontier to move a stuck ship or something. But it does nightlight that "reality" is not all it's cracked up to be and commanders have a very very bad habit of trying to push "immersion" and ingame reasons for everything, on to others.

Context of course is everything. It's also the first casualty when people are trying to push agenda.

 

[Jypson]

Self destruct. Freedom. Button is the right hand menu down the bottom. Solved.

Or are you saying that immersion takes a back seat to practicality. Because I am pretty sure that's exactly the point you made. Immersion, having some in game reason for why you got stuck isn't as practical as just getting the issue fixed.

So when people ask the same thing, why can't some of the mechanics be practical, and people flip out, doesn't it strike you as a double standard?

Because, really. It is. It's okay, there's nothing wrong with asking frontier to move a stuck ship or something. But it does nightlight that "reality" is not all it's cracked up to be and commanders have a very very bad habit of trying to push "immersion" and ingame reasons for everything, on to others

You must have me confused with someone else, gameplay trumps 'immersion' every time in my book.

How would self-destruct be any more immersive? If I'm stuck inside a star, how is my escape pod making it out?

 

[kofeyh]

You must have me confused with someone else, gameplay trumps 'immersion' every time in my book.

How would self-destruct be any more immersive? If I'm stuck inside a star, how is my escape pod making it out?

Again. I am not saying that wasn't a valid action. It solved an issue and allowed you to go back to what you were (presumably) enjoying.

But it does highlight that it's not quite as simple as people like to make out. And that there are parrallels with other game mechanics.

I do recognise your position. Just trying to offer an alternative way to look at what frontier are attempting to do, even if it's a bit ham-fisted

Fly safe. No ill will or harm intended

 

[Tafmeister]

My response is more towards OP and the first few posts than the current topic of conversation ... Aka I've read 5 posts and decided to stick my 2 pennies in

Instant ship transportation doesn't really bother me in the primary bubble, but being able to transport all them ships miraculously to Jacques station 22,000 LYs if desired... That doesn't really ring greatly with me. It kinda feels like a cheat and kitting out that exploration asp to make the great voyage over ... With bare minimal equipment... To make them jumps...Whilst hauling me other ships in Pokeballs (it's what it feels like ... Asp - I choose Yooooooou)

Yeah ... Lost myself there. Basically insta transport in the bubble yay. Being able to insta transport ships to a frontier location instantly ... nay

 

[Jypson]

You are going to argue that the hand of God is preferable over ship destruction which has the potential to fling you clear. Or at least give you a chance over being stuck in a star.

Ok then.

Again. I am not saying that wasn't a valid action. But it does highlight that it's not quite as simple as people like to make out. For the record I am not a fan of a few of the new features, but they will afford people more time to do the things they enjoy.

Much like frontier relocating your ship, afforded you the ability to go back to what you were enjoying. There are parallels here and it's a shame people don't "get" that. Anyway.

Fly safe. No ill will or harm intended

Am I not speaking English?

I was trapped inside of a star. Trapped inside a star! Not taking damage, not dying, trapped, trapped like a fart in a cockpit.

And again, you have me confused with someone who values immersion over gameplay, I assure you, I do not. If I could ask CS to teleport me about the galaxy, I would if I didn't feel like going on my own.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Am I not speaking English?

I was trapped inside of a star. Trapped inside a star! Not taking damage, not dying, trapped, trapped like a fart in a cockpit.

And again, you have me confused with someone who values immersion over gameplay, I assure you, I do not. If I could ask CS to teleport me about the galaxy, I would if I didn't feel like going on my own.

Yeah, that is definitely a bug, and contacting CS is the right call. If FD came out and said that there's a non-zero chance your FSD is a probability drive and you could jump into a star inside the body exclusion zone then I would expect the ship to dry!

 

[Jypson]

Yeah, that is definitely a bug, and contacting CS is the right call. If FD came out and said that there's a non-zero chance your FSD is a probability drive and you could jump into a star inside the body exclusion zone then I would expect the ship to dry!

It was certainly an interdiction bug. I was being interdicted whilst jumping into a system, the "fight the interdiction" mini-game prolonged my slide directly into a star. I was inside the star somehow, unable to move or anything. You can bet your bottom dollar I was going to contact CS vs hitting the 'splode me button. The rebuy on my iCutter is staggering

 

[Dizzy B High]

I've come around to the idea that instant isn't immersion breaking if we don't think of it as instant. I say that since instead of coming up with an in-game explanation of how your ship was either teleported or 3D printed and somehow replicated down to the quantum level, I think that ship rentals would suffice as an in-game explanation. Yes, you would rent a ship that is a complete copy of the ship you need including engineered mods but that's easier to explain or handwave away than replicating a ship from scratch. As someone else pointed out, if you dock your ship with massive damage, do you get those repaired for free when you "transfer" or does the replication replicate all the flaws as well? There's no difficulty explaining how a rental agency has a ship that is "nearly" identical to a ship you own and I'm sure they would offer engineered mods that are "perfectly close" to mods you own.

Additionally, if rentals are found to be exploitable, whether true or false, as instant ship transfers are suspected by some players, rentals give FD greater abilities to limit exploits beyond the stated cost/distance controls. I'll leave that up to the reader or FD to decide how that would be implemented although I have my own ideas.

First stage all FD needs to do is explain that it's not a transfer but a rental; this should only require some in-game text changes to the mechanism. Your original ship stays where it is and for 2.2 we just assume no required return date. First scenario: If you take the "rental" to any shipyard and switch to any owned ship the rental is returned. Second scenario: If you switch to another "rental" the previously rented ship is returned. Third scenario: You buy a new ship while in a "rental" and when you switch to the new owned ship the rental is returned. This will likely not require significant coding changes since in the currently described implementation your original ship needs to be "dismantled" anyway. Either way the server has to account for the gain of 1 ship and the loss of another ship elsewhere.​

Second stage FD can add rental periods based on fees with fines and wanted status for not returning the rented ship. They can also add contracts with the rental agency to source ships and create mods for those ships. This adds to additional gameplay and a tie-in with the Engineers.​

Final stage would be a full fleet management service in-game to move any owned ship from any location to another location with the proper landing pad or hanger. This can add to gameplay in missions to destroy or pirate transport ships, especially if they are military convoys pretending to be civilian ship movements. It could also add gameplay in the possibility of players buying large transport vessels and taking missions to deliver ships from base to base. It could also add mission to deliver 1 ship from one location to another as a courier mission.​

All very well and good but do you really think FDEV have the abillity to create that, have you seen the content in game? hell were only just gong to be getting passenger missions, and your talking about missions created solely so they can implement a system for transporting ships. Aint never gonna happen.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Frontier support are probably sick of transporting ships all over the shop because commanders can't do this themselves. I would be interested as to how many people who are against it for "immersion" reasons have ever had frontier support move a ship, for any reason.

Or better still, would be prepared to admit they have. Just curious.

A few times in Beta testing because you really cannot beta test stuff that matters when you are 50K LY from the bubble.

Once 'live' when I got well and truly screwed by some balancing. Bought an anaconda, fitted it with the lightest power plant that would let it boost. Went out exploring. A few weeks later, they tweaked the stats, and I could no longer boost. Everyone else affected could just pop into their local outfitters. I threw a wobbly. Support were understanding and helpful, and I got transported back to the bubble, upgraded the power plant, and then got transported back out again. I even managed to not complain that the spaceport they moved me to declared my cargo to be illegal ...

I have, however, moved ships using the cheap taxi approach, to consolidate my fleet at a new home base. Moved a couple, did not particularly enjoy it, though I did stuff en route, of course, so the time was not completely wasted. I still have a couple of ships in my old home. Ship transfer would be good. Instant definitely not required.