Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
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Astronomy / Space SETI finds something 'interesting'
- Thread starter Yaffle
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Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
Ahh well. It felt unlikely as a response in some way, it's 95LY away so 190 years is the round trip from us broadcasting to someone detecting the really tiddly dilute signal and replying. Not too sure how much broadcasting was going on in the early 1800s/late 1700s.
Got a linky for the Korpela quote?
Got a linky for the Korpela quote?
https://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=80193
ATA is currently aimed at HD 164595 but so far it didn't find anything unusual. However, ATA is not as sensitive as RATAN-600 so it might as well miss the signal even if it's there - I suppose that Arecibo could come handy. Fact that the Russians released information a year after recording tells me that they probably have been working on it for quite some time but couldn't replicate their result and went "meh, let them know maybe they'll get lucky..."
All in all, this could easily end like Wow signal: never to be heard again.Response is out of question: our earliest radio transmissions barely arrived at HD 164595; they are also too weak to stand out from the natural background radio noise.
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Being a complete non-believer in alien life anywhere (don't ask me to elaborate unless you have proof of aliens) I didn't expect this to be anything.
Being someone fascinated with astronomy I would have liked some sort of explanation for what it is. Any clues?
Being someone fascinated with astronomy I would have liked some sort of explanation for what it is. Any clues?
Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
Not yet. The 'wow' signal Varrag mentions has been thought to be a bounceback off a man-made satellite. Essentially it's an echo from here appearing to come from elsewhere. This could be like this, or something natural and weird. Early pulsars were initially labelled 'little green men' as a joke because they looked like some form of beacon.
Minonian
Banned
Seen the radio spike graph one weak signal followed by a much stronger.
Now, i doubt there is a normal radio transmitter can be heard from this distance.
Wild speculation coming!
However a 2 phase fusion explosion? Fission charge followed by the main hydrogen explosion?
That can be strong enough.
The problem is i don't know how the radio spike and time interval of such explosion looks like, so i can't tell it, i think this is way too slow.
Now, i doubt there is a normal radio transmitter can be heard from this distance.
Wild speculation coming!
However a 2 phase fusion explosion? Fission charge followed by the main hydrogen explosion?
That can be strong enough.
The problem is i don't know how the radio spike and time interval of such explosion looks like, so i can't tell it, i think this is way too slow.
Definitely not normal, at least to our standards. Can't find the quote right now, but I think it's calculated that the hypothetical artificial transmitter should have power accessible only to Kardashev type-II civilization if the signal has been relayed in all drections, or type-I civilization if it was focused on us. In both cases energies involved surpass anything even remotely available to us. It was very powerful pulse.
edit: found it on SETI.org:
Link: http://www.seti.org/seti-institute/a-seti-signal
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Minonian
Banned
Yeah, or an awfully strong directed nuclear blast's, radiation if it's artificial.
Now, let's assume this is the case. Can they direct it towards us? nope, since they have no reason, and no one in his sane mind going to waste this much energy and resources to a low chance sucess like this. We can speculate and say they can picked out the first radio signal left earth, and this is the answer. That was around 1880, but the problem is? Our hypothetical aliens are 95 LY away, what means they can't picked up this signal, and answered to it, even if they did ASAP.
The solar system in question is 95 LY away. Calculating with this this signal started at 1921 - 95 that means if this is an answer, it must be 1826, or earlier. we did not even knew about the existence of radio back then.
Nah! This is some cosmic boogie, or the signal is came from much closer, but from this direction.
Edit; The first radio signal strong enough to leave earth are 136 LY away currently, but i strongly doubt there is anything can made, or imaginable by our current tech level and knowledge, what's capable to pick up the signal, and filter out the jitters. A quantum computer maybe? But even with that you need an unimaginably large telescope, as a transceiver.
Edit2; Even wilder speculations. let's assume a nuclear blast can be heard from a few dozen LY away. Now, the first explosion was in 1945 which means by assuming we had an immediate answer, the source got to be 35 LY away or closer. Is there anything towards that direction, or closer?
Now, let's assume this is the case. Can they direct it towards us? nope, since they have no reason, and no one in his sane mind going to waste this much energy and resources to a low chance sucess like this. We can speculate and say they can picked out the first radio signal left earth, and this is the answer. That was around 1880, but the problem is? Our hypothetical aliens are 95 LY away, what means they can't picked up this signal, and answered to it, even if they did ASAP.
The solar system in question is 95 LY away. Calculating with this this signal started at 1921 - 95 that means if this is an answer, it must be 1826, or earlier. we did not even knew about the existence of radio back then.
Nah! This is some cosmic boogie, or the signal is came from much closer, but from this direction.
Edit; The first radio signal strong enough to leave earth are 136 LY away currently, but i strongly doubt there is anything can made, or imaginable by our current tech level and knowledge, what's capable to pick up the signal, and filter out the jitters. A quantum computer maybe? But even with that you need an unimaginably large telescope, as a transceiver.
Edit2; Even wilder speculations. let's assume a nuclear blast can be heard from a few dozen LY away. Now, the first explosion was in 1945 which means by assuming we had an immediate answer, the source got to be 35 LY away or closer. Is there anything towards that direction, or closer?
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I think the first radio signal powerful enough to break through the Earth's ionosphere was TV broadcast of the Berlin Olimpic games opening ceremony in 1936 (as depicted in movie 'Contact').
Problem: inverse square law applies to signals escaping from the Earth, meaning that they would quickly lose strenght, dissipate and/or get absorbed by interstellar gas and dust, ultimately blending into the natural radio noise. Our radio transmissions are regularily sent into outer space, but there is only so much LYs that they can go before becoming unrecognizable; perhaps even to some very advanced civilization.
Problem: inverse square law applies to signals escaping from the Earth, meaning that they would quickly lose strenght, dissipate and/or get absorbed by interstellar gas and dust, ultimately blending into the natural radio noise. Our radio transmissions are regularily sent into outer space, but there is only so much LYs that they can go before becoming unrecognizable; perhaps even to some very advanced civilization.
Minonian
Banned
Now, hold on just a minute. A specific radio broadcast with the right fequency, and decoding can be reach very far, but there is no guarantee, to be intercepted or reach anything, not to mention if we wanna make sure? We must "ring the phone" a long long time.
But if we must just blindly want to reveal ourselves, we must send out an awfully strong pulse. Like a nuclear blast with some pattern. to make oblivious it's artificial. And this is something we can also seek right?
After all, they are the stronger non intentional radiation sources. whom can possibly reach other star systems. The question is? how strong they are in radio wavelength? I did not find anything specifically related to these. But in theory? A strong EMP pulse? And don't forget nuclear power is an important step in scientific progress a Tech civilization capable to at least intercept a message or detect something like these? It's safe to say, have it!
And we don't even talked about the other byproducts of an explosion like these right? gamma beta, what the particle detectors can usually see? It is possible to detect these things from another solar system, and tell they are not natural events?
And i think we reached the core of the problem right?
Unintentional messages which send out quickly losing power.
intentional messages?
Small cone of angle, short pulses, instead long repeated "phone ringing" To make sure someone can get our messages. Even if there is someone, no guarantee the can intercept it right? Hell! Sometimes we need to ring the others for long long time, even if we know he have a phone. and the distances these messages gone? the first is aimed to 25K LY away. What's the point to send something this far? We can't get any results within historically acceptable time frame. A few decades or 100 years, ok... But anything longer than that?
Not to mention its speeds the latest's just way too fast. the bigger the compression the more chance we have for data loss. Think about it! how small the bandwidth of the space probes? And not by accident, or laziness.
But if we must just blindly want to reveal ourselves, we must send out an awfully strong pulse. Like a nuclear blast with some pattern. to make oblivious it's artificial. And this is something we can also seek right?
After all, they are the stronger non intentional radiation sources. whom can possibly reach other star systems. The question is? how strong they are in radio wavelength? I did not find anything specifically related to these. But in theory? A strong EMP pulse? And don't forget nuclear power is an important step in scientific progress a Tech civilization capable to at least intercept a message or detect something like these? It's safe to say, have it!
And we don't even talked about the other byproducts of an explosion like these right? gamma beta, what the particle detectors can usually see? It is possible to detect these things from another solar system, and tell they are not natural events?
And i think we reached the core of the problem right?
Unintentional messages which send out quickly losing power.
intentional messages?
Small cone of angle, short pulses, instead long repeated "phone ringing" To make sure someone can get our messages. Even if there is someone, no guarantee the can intercept it right? Hell! Sometimes we need to ring the others for long long time, even if we know he have a phone. and the distances these messages gone? the first is aimed to 25K LY away. What's the point to send something this far? We can't get any results within historically acceptable time frame. A few decades or 100 years, ok... But anything longer than that?
Not to mention its speeds the latest's just way too fast. the bigger the compression the more chance we have for data loss. Think about it! how small the bandwidth of the space probes? And not by accident, or laziness.
Even we have sent radio signals to potential contact directions even though we have not received anything to date. It's not a leap to think another civ. might have shot something in our direction, especially if they have enough tech to detect an earth-like orbiting a yellow dwarf.
The question of energy output is interesting or it could be that they have power to spare. Just because it seems ridiculous to us doesn't mean it's ridiculous to "them".
Or maybe they fired their death ray at us.
While in theory nuclear explosion can yield enough energy to create pulse as strong, or even stronger than this one (peak power output of the Soviet-era 50 megaton 'Tsar bomb' was around 1024 watts), most of this energy is released in forms of thermal (heat) and kinetic (blast). I think less than 10 percent goes into ultraviolet, X and gamma radiation. Which then has to be somehow directed into beam and modulated so that the receiver can recognize it as something other than result of some natural spatial event.
Minonian
Banned
True that's the problem. But even the tenth of this magnitudes stronger than our first message sent out. Plus? The warheads are designed to work in the thermal province so they are as destructive as they can. It's maybe possible to change this, so they can yield more radio energy. Modulation? You just send out to the space one ICBM mirv and detonate the separate the warheads in order. Crazy idea, but we want our cosmic neighborhoods to notice us? Probably the best way.
Besides? Just as i said? Every time some alien race starts detonate nukes, he is in the threshold on space age right? You need ICBM's to make them any good. So if it's possible to catch such explosions and recognize it's characteristics?
Besides? Just as i said? Every time some alien race starts detonate nukes, he is in the threshold on space age right? You need ICBM's to make them any good. So if it's possible to catch such explosions and recognize it's characteristics?
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An encounter of the third type is not for tomorrow. Fortunately it remains for us ED
