Combat logging experiment in Cail, Results

[Asp Explorer]

30 minutes into call...

'yeah can I just check, when you keep saying 'Windows' you mean Workbench right? It's an accent thing...?'

Yes I have pressed the funny symbol key on the left side of the keyboard, and now I have a blue screen with no sign of internet explorer. I can see my bytes going down - someone must be hacking! It's making gronking noises! HALP!

They will definitely combat log

 

[Red Anders]

Yes I have pressed the funny symbol key on the left side of the keyboard, and now I have a blue screen with no sign of internet explorer. I can see my bytes going down - someone must be hacking! It's making gronking noises! HALP!

They will definitely combat log

Can't rep again but laughing so hard

 

[_Fissure]

I didn't post that which you you replied to, Cosmos did.
Dunno what happened with the forums but reported.

Wait, reported? What?

 

[SqualZell]

i have too much pride to combat log so i don't place myself in a situation where i will need to.
so until they fix at least the interdiction mechanics bull    ery I will play in solo/private group. i don't care that the CG is Open only, there are plenty of other things to do.

 

[Siranui]

Combat logging is the only defence when some overcharged FDL human player rips them from super cruise to blow their ship apart for kicks.

Tosh. Pure tosh.

Try running.

And if that doesn't work, accept the rebuy screen.

'The only defence' is not to outright cheat. If players can't handle the loss without cheating, I'd rather they went and played something else.

I don't want to share my play space with griefing idiots.

But I don't want to share it with a bunch of cheats, either.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

There really isn't any difference other than Sandro making up excuses.. 'exiting the game gracefully' indeed [rolleyes]

Sorry Cosmos, but despite your obvious dislike for Sandro he is correct.

Spoiler

• When you start the game you inform the match-making server you're online
• When you merge with other players due to proximity and settings matching you are informed by the MM server of the other players IP
• You create peer links with the other player
• When you exit the game
  • via the menu the game informs the MM server / other players you're leaving and everyone closes their peer links
  • via yanking the plug you don't care .. your game is offline .. but the other systems (MM server / players) don't know that .. they leave their peer links open and keep trying to contact you. Only until either a pre-programmed time out happens or a natural protocol timeout happens are the links closed.

That is why when you pull the plug you become invulnerable - your client can't verify the shots you made against the enemy target have been registered so you take no damage. Your client has no idea about the enemy movement so repeats the last known action until it hears back to confirm. (It's also the source of rubber banding when someone in your island / instance is lagging)

I am not defending the action itself here as IMO combat logging (as defined by FD) should be actionable and really wish it was and menu-logging should have the delay extended (when in combat) to 60 seconds or even longer - but claiming Sandro is making up excuses as to what happens when you pull the plug shows ignorance on your part.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So far one combat log, one cargo glitch, one non-compliant after multiple chances given to submit then destroyed, one high wake.

Man piracy is so easy...

You're such a negative Nancy.

Alternatively: only 25% combat logged.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Never combat logged, it's just a game. Mind you I don't like PvP much so I fly a Cobra.

 

[Han_Zen]

Sorry Cosmos, but despite your obvious dislike for Sandro he is correct.

Spoiler

• When you start the game you inform the match-making server you're online
• When you merge with other players due to proximity and settings matching you are informed by the MM server of the other players IP
• You create peer links with the other player
• When you exit the game
  • via the menu the game informs the MM server / other players you're leaving and everyone closes their peer links
  • via yanking the plug you don't care .. your game is offline .. but the other systems (MM server / players) don't know that .. they leave their peer links open and keep trying to contact you. Only until either a pre-programmed time out happens or a natural protocol timeout happens are the links closed.

That is why when you pull the plug you become invulnerable - your client can't verify the shots you made against the enemy target have been registered so you take no damage. Your client has no idea about the enemy movement so repeats the last known action until it hears back to confirm. (It's also the source of rubber banding when someone in your island / instance is lagging)

I am not defending the action itself here as IMO combat logging (as defined by FD) should be actionable and really wish it was and menu-logging should have the delay extended (when in combat) to 60 seconds or even longer - but claiming Sandro is making up excuses as to what happens when you pull the plug shows ignorance on your part.

60 seconds in combat would be OK if you didn't have to sit and wait before confirming. If you are RES farming and a kid pukes in bed, 60 seconds is a long time. [where is it]

If we could confirm immediately and have a cancel instead, I would be ok with it.

Still doesn't prevent Alt-F4ing though. Quite the opposite.

 

[Julissa Silver]

Non-combat people wouldn't have any reason to combat log if they weren't forced into combat situations to play a non-combat role. But then that's what you get when Frontier proves to be incapable of sticking to their promises and pitching all the non-pvpers into the toilet. Blame Frontier for it, not the non-pvp pilots. Frankly, I'm blissful that the poor, put upon pewpewers are crying about combat logging. It's just a hint of karma for those 'role playing' sociopaths in a galaxy with absolutely no proper repercussions. Maybe they can just learn to enjoy 'losing' and stop being so bitter about it (y'know, in the way that they tell their victims to).

 

[Ozram]

I don't Pvp and I don't like Open (I mean: it's completly useless play there; there isnothing other mode can't give you more).

But.

If you play open you accept someone else can pirate you or attack you.

If you don't like that: donìt play open.

Having said that, I wonder anyway how many player would play in open If they had to choose a single mode: private/solo or open.

[Edit]

At the end, Cl is a lesser problem compared to a few...

[Edit off]

There are pirate who combat log too by the way so...

I only play in open and I fully agree. If you are in Open it means you should be open to player attacks (both pirates and murderers). Unfortunately, FD do not help the situation because they don't implement a proper system of consequences (crime and punishment) and if anything, combat is more out of whack than ever thanks to engineering and instead of fixing any of that its about to become worse with Insta ships and fighters... Whatever.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

If we could confirm immediately and have a cancel instead, I would be ok with it.

That would be a QoL change and something I would welcome - other games allow you to accept before the timer runs out & still cancel if you want to so why not ED ?

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I had an idea for illegal combat logging fix.
Probably mentioned before, but I don't recall it.

Simply add a check when combat starts, for unexpected disconnects.
If combat ends, or you legally combat log via the menu, the check is removed.
If not, the check remains on your save.
Upon logging back in, if it detects the check is still in place, the game locks you to the last mode you was in, for a limited time.
Or something. Lol

Doesn't fix it really. But does discourage it, because you might end up with your Attacker again.

 

[Oddisee]

Curious side query: Were any of those unshielded ships?

Those are the ships I kill first...

fly in open without shields and you deserve to lose your ship.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Those are the ships I kill first...

fly in open without shields and you deserve to lose your ship.

I do find it funny when people complain they died while trading.
And you ask for their loadout, and they show, and its completely unarmed, unshielded, unarmoured, Type-7 or something.

And they still don't get it. Lol

 

[resonic]

I do find it funny when people complain they died while trading.
And you ask for their loadout, and they show, and its completely unarmed, unshielded, unarmoured, Type-7 or something.

And they still don't get it. Lol

So if you park a convertible in the street I can steal all your stuff, right? I mean its your fault, because you left it open.

 

[NeilF]

I think we all know why combat logging is so common (if we agree it is)... Players do not appreciate mindless destruction. Why give someone their kicks, when these kicks are nothing to do with any ingame progression or skill, but instead the cynical knowledge they are simply causing needless grief to another player.

Anyhow, IMHO, we need to do the following:-
1) Create far far stronger penalties for (illegal) Pilots Federation destruction (any where). In effect to deter repeat mindless destruction. And have increasingly long bans to OPEN only?
2) Improve piracy so its a worthwhile occupation, with its own reputation and bases to access. And also so it is based around the extraction of cargo from Pilots Federation members, not the destruction.
3) Offer more viable PvP mechanics/locations/tasks. People want to PvP, but the game currently does next to nothing to orchestrate it.
4) If someone is soft logging (ie: exiting to Menu) in a combat situation, increase the timer, and show this timer to all players in the instance. Maybe even introduce a damage multiplier. ie: So if someone is soft logging they can more easily damaged.
5) Penalise combat logging. Give warnings about repeated "odd disconnects" before finally taking some sort of action. eg: Increasingly long bans to SOLO only?

 

[Jack Schitt]

A bit sad, but hardly surprising. Combat logging was always going to be a problem for a P2P game. It's immediately effective and almost impossible to watchdog without introducing false positives or further exploits. But it should have been a niche problem. A rarity.

But by allowing such a huge imbalance between combat-focused and non combat-focused ship builds, and having no meaningful authority response or punishment system for illegal interdictions and whatever follows them, FD have made combat logging almost a default choice. Once again FD are reaping what they sowed. They chose the path of least resistance when it came to much of the game's design and implementation, and now players are doing exactly the same when it comes to surviving it.

Maybe the Cail thing with its forced Open Play will be the event that finally persuades FD that something needs to be done to address this, although what form that something takes, and whether it will be effective, only time will tell. Personally I think the damage is already done and it will be next to impossible to put this particular genie back in the bottle, but then I don't play Open at all any more so my opinion is purely academic.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

So if you park a convertible in the street I can steal all your stuff, right? I mean its your fault, because you left it open.

Yes.
For being an idiot.

You're still committing a crime, and should be caught an punished.

Thieves are often opportunist, given the opportunity, they will steal your stuff.

The same can be applied to cats.

If I leave my lovely roast chicken on the counter and go for a walk, I simply can not expect my cat to not eat it.
Sure the cat is naughty for doing it, but I shouldn't have left it there either.

 

[resonic]

As NeilF said:

Players do not appreciate mindless destruction. Why give someone their kicks, when these kicks are nothing to do with any ingame progression or skill, but instead the cynical knowledge they are simply causing needless grief to another player.

This is about pointless destruction and ganking instead of real piracy. Those guys dont run away with your cargo but just want to destroy your ship for fun.

Not a cool and respectable behavior. Thats why I left PvP long time ago. If it was about cargo, it would be ok, but its just about the fun of being a psychopath and create destruction also ruining the game for everyone.