Engineers Why is Heat a different damage type to Thermal?

[DragoonKnight]

The issue here is the direction the heat is affecting the ship. A Thermal attack affects a ship from outside the hull, causing damage to shields/hull primarily, before affecting modules. Heat, on the other hand, is a measure of the ship's ability to dissipate internal heat from it's modules. Increasing the heat inside your ship (i.e., from silent running or reducing your thermal dissipation by being near a star) will affect your modules first, then hull as it's affecting the inside of the ship.

This generally makes sense, as your ship is considered an open system from a thermodynamics perspective unless you close your heat radiators and go into silent running, in which case it is thermodynamically a closed system and the reactions generating heat (or rather converting nuclear and electrical energy into thermal energy) will continue with nowhere for the heat energy to go until you open the heat radiators again. It even makes sense that the heat dissipation would be worse being next to a star (heat radiators can't exchange heat as effectively near a star compared to deep space due to the temperature differential between the ship and the surrounding environment). Shields having no effect on heat buildup near a star also makes sense, as you're not being affected by the star's temperature directly so much as your ship's heat radiators can't get rid of heat from inside the ship.

Where this breaks down of course if that somehow the thermal shock weapons can magically cause your ship to overheat. This makes no sense of course because they are using external heat which we already know your shields and hull are very capable of dissipating. The heat from a thermal shock weapon would need to get past your shields and hull and either cause modules to overheat directly or somehow affect your ship's ability to dissipate the internal heat. Although I could conceive of a mechanism where this might happen (i.e., a charged particle beam or pulse that somehow specifically affects your ship's heat radiators in some way) it simply doesn't make sense scientifically based on how thermal shock weapons are presented in the game.

Then again, a magic healing beam, a "heat vent" that is only effective when striking a solid object (rather than venting directly into space) and so on are even worse from a scientific perspective. Essentially FD completely jumped the shark with Engineering weapons, it's one of those things that will either be completely immersion-breaking or you'll just need to ignore to enjoy the game.

From a game balance perspective, I understand what they were trying to achieve with thermal shock weapons, they just implemented it extremely poorly. It's a very similar situation to MechWarrior where lasers or particle projectors inflict thermal damage in a localized area of your armor, while some specialized weapons such as flamethrowers will affect your Mech's ability to dissipate heat from the reactor and will actually cause your heat to go up. The balancing factor here is that flamethrowers were short-ranged, small weapons that did little if any armor damage and required a fast mech with a good pilot to keep them on target. The current thermal shock heat meta that we have in the game at the moment makes the heat mechanic the single best way to defeat another ship. It's just not even close when compared to other weapons. What's worse, it's not a "challenging" or "difficult" mechanic to implement or use, you just put thermal shock mods on your weapons and fire away.

The ONLY balancing factor that would make heat mod weapons "balanced" is that if they inflicted the same heat to the firing ship as they did to the target. Then a thermal shock build would need to be designed specifically to dissipate it's own heat from firing the weapons instead of magically inflicting crippling heat through the target's shields and hull. Unfortunately FD has no idea of how to balance the game at this point (you can look at 2.1.05 and ridiculous CG payouts as proof of this) and until they learn how to achieve proper game balance or nerf thermal shock weapons into the ground this is what we're left with.

You are wrong, for many reasons but I will just touch upon the main ones.
1. Your shields dont protect against heat. Go fuel scoop with your shield on and with your shield off. No difference. You'll be a little cooler with your shields off actually.

2. Your hull does not protect against heat. Again, go fuel scoop with and without armor. No difference in heat.

3. Heating a Hull will cause the modules inside of it to get hot.

4. You seem to be fixated on the word "Thermal" and are arguing over semantics. Replace "Thermal" with "Shield Penetrating" and "Kinetic" with "Armor Penetrating".

5. Going into silent running does not make your ship a closed system (actually called an isolated system if you want to say that there is no transfer of energy or matter) from a thermodynamics perspective. Outside sources of heat can still affect it.

 

[Ozram]

You are wrong, for many reasons but I will just touch upon the main ones.
1. Your shields dont protect against heat. Go fuel scoop with your shield on and with your shield off. No difference. You'll be a little cooler with your shields off actually.

2. Your hull does not protect against heat. Again, go fuel scoop with and without armor. No difference in heat .

3. Heating a Hull will cause the modules inside of it to get hot.

4. You seem to be fixated on the word "Thermal" and are arguing over semantics. Replace "Thermal" with "Shield Penetrating" and "Kinetic" with "Armor Penetrating".

5. Going into silent running does not make your ship a closed system (actually called an isolated system if you want to say that there is no transfer of energy or matter) from a thermodynamics perspective. Outside sources of heat can still affect it.

1. If anything, it should generate heat.
2. No... But it would be cool if it did (the reflective one and only from outside sources).
3. Yep
4. That's between you and him
5. True. It just keeps the heat from getting out but still takes it in. My first rebuy (way back when) came from accidentally going silent and not knowing how to switch it off again. On a side note, back to #1, if would be good if it generated slightly less heat from being switched off (does it?).

 

[Devari]

You are wrong, for many reasons but I will just touch upon the main ones.

I actually don't think you understand what I typed at all since you are making statements that actually reinforce what I said in my post.

1. Your shields dont protect against heat. Go fuel scoop with your shield on and with your shield off. No difference. You'll be a little cooler with your shields off actually.

2. Your hull does not protect against heat. Again, go fuel scoop with and without armor. No difference in heat.

That's exactly what I said. Thermal attacks come from outside your ship and are dissipated/resisted by your shields and hull. Heat attacks (or rather the magical heat effect that thermal shock weapons cause) manages to cause the heat inside your ship to increase. The reason why flying next to a star causes you to overheat is because your ship can't dissipate it own internal heat as effectively, not because the star is "cooking" the insides of the ship.

3. Heating a Hull will cause the modules inside of it to get hot.

Only after Thermal damage gets through the shields/hull. A laser does not immediately cause module damage simply when targeting the hull because you have to get through the hull before affecting the modules inside the ship. When you specifically target a module this the attack is more focused but will still cause some hull damage as you heat the hull where the module is located.

4. You seem to be fixated on the word "Thermal" and are arguing over semantics. Replace "Thermal" with "Shield Penetrating" and "Kinetic" with "Armor Penetrating".

That is not how the game works and makes no sense. Thermal is the term that Elite uses to represent a weapon effect that uses heat in some manner to inflict damage. Lasers, plasma accelerators and incendiary multicannon rounds are all Thermal attacks because they cause shield/hull damage from high temperatures. They have even differentiated this from Explosive which is sort of a combination of Thermal/Kinetic but was given it's own damage category. What you're suggesting about "shield penetrating" or "armor penetrating" is simply incorrect and is not how those weapons are represented in the game. Armor penetration for example is a completely separate statistic that is applied to weapons separately from having Kinetic or Thermal typed damage, in fact I have some Incendiary overcharged multicannons that have Thermal damage (due to the incendiary rounds) and also have increased Armor penetration due to a secondary effect.

5. Going into silent running does not make your ship a closed system (actually called an isolated system if you want to say that there is no transfer of energy or matter) from a thermodynamics perspective. Outside sources of heat can still affect it.

Technically even a ship in silent running mode would be neither closed nor isolated thermodynamically, as the thrusters are still exerting work (due to the use of reaction mass) and generating heat (thrusters still give off heat and your thermal signature is not zero). The point here wasn't to give a scientifically accurate thermodynamic description of a ship in Elite (which wouldn't be possible unless we knew exactly how the ship's reactor, engines and weapons worked) the point was simply to illustrate that during normal operations your ship is actively radiating heat to keep the internal temperature down while in silent running mode the heat is "trapped" inside the ship with nowhere to go. It also illustrates the difference between internal heat causing module damage (and eventually hull damage) and external Thermal weapons which cause shield/hull damage (and eventually module damage). The difference here is whether the heat doing the damage is OUTSIDE the hull or INSIDE the hull. Thermal shock weapons magically cause heat to increase INSIDE the hull. There is no plausible scientific explanation or model for how this could possibly work. In addition to breaking immersion in what is (supposed) to be a semi-scientific game the use of thermal shock weapons is also a terrible game mechanic from a game balance perspective given that the weapons are STILL ridiculously OP despite several attempts at nerfing them by FD (apparently they need to use a larger nerf bat or hit thermal shock weapons several more times).

 

[avow555]

Thermal and heat just blow in this non science game.
Energy and Kinetic damage work fine for most players out there.

Overcooked nerd devs, take a cold shower[rolleyes]

 

[DragoonKnight]

Let me break this down for you. You seem to have some difficulty with basic heat transfer concepts

Hull = Giant Heatsink. It helps to dissipate the heat generated by your ship. We use the same concept today with large transformers, motors, brake rotors, etc.
Heat attacks heat up your hull. Flying close to a star heats up your hull.
When your hull gets hot, the rate at which heat energy can be transferred from your internals to the hull is decreased.

rate of heat flow between internal modules and your hull is
∆Q/∆t = -K×A×∆T/x
-K is the thermal conductivity factor; A is the surface area; x is the thickness of the material
K, A, and x are constant in our scenario
Your only real variable here is ∆T.
∆T is the change in temperature

Unfortunately for our space ships, The rate at which your hull can dissipate heat is governed by another formula because you can only transfer heat away from your hull by radiating it away. A lot less efficient than conduction.

q = ε σ (Th4 - Tc4) Ac
where
Th = hot body absolute temperature (K)
Tc = cold surroundings absolute temperature (K)
Ac = area of the object (m2)

Normally this is not a problem, because the ship can radiate heat away faster than it can be generated inside.
Get your hull too hot, by an external source, and it will transfer some of its heat to your internal modules. Heat will simply flow from hottest to coldest.

 

[Devari]

Let me break this down for you. You seem to have some difficulty with basic heat transfer concepts

I'll stop you right there. You're treating the ships like solid blocks of iron. They aren't. If it helps, think of it like cooling the CPU/GPU in your computer or cooling the engine in your car.

Hull = Giant Heatsink. It helps to dissipate the heat generated by your ship. We use the same concept today with large transformers, motors, brake rotors, etc.
Heat attacks heat up your hull. Flying close to a star heats up your hull.
When your hull gets hot, the rate at which heat energy can be transferred from your internals to the hull is decreased.

First, the hull is not a heatsink at all. It is not going to be thermally connected to the components in your ship that generate heat. Same as how your entire laptop casing does not act as a method of dissipating heat generated by your CPU/GPU. In fact, if anything the hull probably serves as an excellent insulator keeping heat INSIDE the ship.

rate of heat flow between internal modules and your hull is
∆Q/∆t = -K×A×∆T/x
-K is the thermal conductivity factor; A is the surface area; x is the thickness of the material
K, A, and x are constant in our scenario
Your only real variable here is ∆T.
∆T is the change in temperature

Unfortunately for our space ships, The rate at which your hull can dissipate heat is governed by another formula because you can only transfer heat away from your hull by radiating it away. A lot less efficient than conduction.

q = ε σ (Th4 - Tc4) Ac
where
Th = hot body absolute temperature (K)
Tc = cold surroundings absolute temperature (K)
Ac = area of the object (m2)

As much as I appreciate math, you're again treating ships like they're solid blocks of iron where the surface area/density is somehow dissipating heat. That's not how the cooling systems would work in Elite. The problems are much closer to dealing with the heating/cooling issues encountered by laptops where specific components generate heat and the cooling system is designed to handle this.

Would you try to use the above equation to determine the maximum amount of thermal load that your laptop CPU/GPU can dissipate based on the dimensions of your computer casing? Didn't think so.

Normally this is not a problem, because the ship can radiate heat away faster than it can be generated inside.
Get your hull too hot, by an external source, and it will transfer some of its heat to your internal modules. Heat will simply flow from hottest to coldest.

Again, no. Your hull is not in contact with the internal modules and heating the hull is not causing a thermal "load" on those modules, same as it isn't being used to dissipate heat from those modules.

You can't treat a laptop or a car as a thermodynamic equation as if it's a solid piece of metal. Your car engine will overheat without the radiator running properly same as your laptop's CPU or GPU will overheat without the fans running. This becomes even more likely to happen in hot weather or climates because the fans/radiator have more "work" to do cooling the components relative to ambient temperatures. This doesn't mean that the car's engine is "cooled" based on the surface area of the entire car or the laptop's CPU/GPU are "cooled" based on the surface area of the entire laptop. Same idea with aircraft or spaceships. Heat is generated by specific components and cooled by specific cooling systems, although external temperatures will affect the efficiency of this process it is NOT because the entire chassis/hull/casing is used to dissipate heat.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It's a game mechanic and as such it doesn't really need to be scientifically correct if it fulfills its role as game mechanic. Tech babble helps keeping the belief, but I don't really need it - I've played fantasy games with magic before.

 

[c00ky1970]

This is a game.

It's Science Fiction and not Science.

Its how the developers have developed the game.

Note we can, in game, travel faster than the speed of light, which for any moderately be-pencilled physicist will cause them to spurt brownian motion inducing liquid over their keyboards and scream no no no!

So if we can travel faster than light, we can have 'Lasers' that cause thermal damage to a 'shield', which also is a physical impossibility.

Please stop trying to align this science fiction game with real life and real science, cos playing this game gets us away from real life.

I think Kerbal Space Programme may be more of what you want - although you may have issues with the fact that all the people look alike you cant actually examine the scientific data they collect yourself.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I'll stop you right there. You're treating the ships like solid blocks of iron. They aren't. If it helps, think of it like cooling the CPU/GPU in your computer or cooling the engine in your car.



First, the hull is not a heatsink at all. It is not going to be thermally connected to the components in your ship that generate heat. Same as how your entire laptop casing does not act as a method of dissipating heat generated by your CPU/GPU. In fact, if anything the hull probably serves as an excellent insulator keeping heat INSIDE the ship.



As much as I appreciate math, you're again treating ships like they're solid blocks of iron where the surface area/density is somehow dissipating heat. That's now how the cooling systems would work in Elite. The problems are much closer to dealing with the heating/cooling issues encountered by laptops where specific components generate heat and the cooling system is designed to handle this.

Would you try to use the above equation to determine the maximum amount of thermal load that your laptop CPU/GPU can dissipate based on the dimensions of your computer casing? Didn't think so.



Again, no. Your hull is not in contact with the internal modules and heating the hull is not causing a thermal "load" on those modules, same as it isn't being used to dissipate heat from those modules.

You can't treat a laptop or a car as a thermodynamic equation as if it's a solid piece of metal. Your car engine will overheat without the radiator running properly same as your laptop's CPU or GPU will overheat without the fans running. This becomes even more likely to happen in hot weather or climates because the fans/radiator have more "work" to do cooling the components relative to ambient temperatures. This doesn't mean that the car's engine is "cooled" based on the surface area of the entire car or the laptop's CPU/GPU are "cooled" based on the surface area of the entire laptop. Same idea with aircraft or spaceships. Heat is generated by specific components and cooled by specific cooling systems, although external temperatures will affect the efficiency of this process it is NOT because the entire chassis/hull/casing is used to dissipate heat.

The hull is physically connected to your internals.
Physical connection = heat transfer

You can use that formula to determine the heat dissipation of your computer. You just have to combine it with with the formula for heat dissipation by conduction, and the formula for heat dissipation by convection.

All your talk about insulators, laptops, and car radiators simply tells me you have no clue about thermodynamics and how heat transfer actually works. I've tried to explain the math and physics to you. At this point it is you obvious you are not interested in the science, you are just interested in arguing with analogies. Go educate yourself. Come back when you have an understanding of heat transfer and can use more than analogies to back up your argument.

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Again, no. Your hull is not in contact with the internal modules and heating the hull is not causing a thermal "load" on those modules, same as it isn't being used to dissipate heat from those modules.

Actually, it is. Your modules have to be attached to something. They are not floating in free space. There is heat transfer between your hull, the attachment points, and the internals. Those attachment points can get hot.

 

[AdamDZ]

There is sound in space and you worry about proper application of Thermodynamics???

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

There is sound in space and you worry about proper application of Thermodynamics???

Haha, yea. Gotta see a game that does this "right". Sometimes I switch off life support just to have those muffled sounds.

 

[Devari]

The hull is physically connected to your internals.
Physical connection = heat transfer

It is not connected in a way that will conduct any significant amounts of heat, especially compared to your ship's active cooling systems. Does your entire laptop get uniformly hot when your CPU/GPU temps rise or does your entire car get uniformly hot when your engine temp rises?

You can use that formula to determine the heat dissipation of your computer. You just have to combine it with with the formula for heat dissipation by conduction, and the formula for heat dissipation by convection.

Your equation is suitable for treating an object like a solid block of iron. It cannot be readily applied to a CPU/GPU cooling system because the system is too complex to be treated in that way. The same principles of heat transfer might apply to each individual component in the cooling system but assumptions made by the equations prevent you from treating the system in that manner.

All your talk about insulators, laptops, and car radiators simply tells me you have no clue about thermodynamics and how heat transfer actually works. I've tried to explain the math and physics to you. At this point it is you obvious you are not interested in the science, you are just interested in arguing with analogies. Go educate yourself. Come back when you have an understanding of heat transfer and can use more than analogies to back up your argument.

You're like one of those students who takes a first-year physics course and then thinks he can "explain" everything in the physical world based on simple equations without understanding that those equations don't adequately describe all the properties in a system or make too many assumptions that they aren't suitable for the purpose you're trying to use them for. You're doing the same thing with heat transfer, you think your simple equation is sufficient even when real-life examples and common sense should tell you otherwise.

Actually, it is. Your modules have to be attached to something. They are not floating in free space. There is heat transfer between your hull, the attachment points, and the internals. Those attachment points can get hot.

Almost no heat transfer occurs from those mounting points. Without an active cooling system the tiny amounts of cooling from heat transferred to the mounting points on your car's engine or CPU/GPU are trivial compared to the cooling from your laptop's cooling system or your car's radiator. If you actually knew anything about computers or auto mechanics you would know this. In fact if you simply applied common sense based on everyday experience of using a computer or car you would know that your car engine or computer can readily overheat when the cooling system fails with almost no cooling occurring through the mounting points of the engine or CPU/GPU.

The problem with what you're doing is that you don't understand the actual engineering involved in these systems. You think your simplistic equations are "adequate" for discussion of a topic that requires far more knowledge than you actually have. It's like discussing ballistics with a physics student who thinks that all he needs to do is calculate momentum or kinetic energy of a bullet to have the discussion. When you try to explain principles like bullet deformation/fragmentation, cross-sectional density, energy transfer and numerous other ballistic properties he has no idea how to work those into his basic equation and so he completely ignores them and thinks his simplistic equations are adequate.

If you truly "understand" the equations you claim will apply to cooling a CPU/GPU system and feel that it can be applied in the way you're describing, then do it. Look up the laptop specs and dimensions and do the actual math. You'll find that you won't be able to do this with those equations because they make assumptions that are suitable for a block of iron but aren't complex enough to possibly be applied to a cooling system like a CPU/GPU with a combination of fans, metal heat sinks and passive cooling all happening at once.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I am a Engineer and my real life work involves providing custom cooling solutions for Data Centers.
My hobby is racing cars. I know a lot more about car engines than I would care to write.

I have to resort to using simplified formulas here because it is obvious you dont understand the subject. Even the formulas and basic concepts I presented are a struggle for you. A simplified model is easier to explain. Sadly you think that I should have taken the time to go to my office and do a heat transfer simulation of a fictional spaceship for you.

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Please feel free to demonstrate your own knowledge. Post the relevant math and equations for the heat transfer occurring in a car or a laptop or a fictional spaceship. I'd love to see what you think you can come up with.

 

[Devari]

I am a Engineer and my real life work involves providing custom cooling solutions for Data Centers.

My hobby is racing cars. I know a lot more about car engines than I would care to write.

Then why would you ever suggest that the "mounting points" in a car engine or CPU/GPU play any role in cooling the heat generated by these devices? I don't understand how you could actually know how these devices work and then claim that something as trivial as mounting points would contribute to the cooling process.

I have to resort to using simplified formulas here because it is obvious you dont understand the subject. Even the formulas and basic concepts I presented are a struggle for you.

I understand the equations, I've been through senior university courses where I've had to calculate exceptionally tiny changes in material properties based on miniscule temperature changes. I also know that the equations you presented can't be applied directly to car engine or CPU/GPU cooling because of the various factors involved.

A simplified model is easier to explain. Sadly you think that I should have taken the time to go to my office and do a heat transfer simulation of a fictional spaceship for you.

Like I said, explain to me how a car engine's mounting points "cool" the car's engine block? Go ahead. I'll get a coffee and come back when you're done. Same with a CPU/GPU? How much of the CPU/GPU cooling is accomplished by the mounting points where the CPU/GPU socket connects to the motherboard? I'm not talking about the heat sink or thermal assembly here, that's part of the cooling system specifically.

I don't understand how you could claim to use these devices regularly and fail to realize how the mounting points for a car's engine or CPU/GPU play almost no role in conducting heat to the car's chassis/laptop's frame. How much focused heat would you need to apply to a car's exterior or a laptop's exterior to "conduct" heat through these mounting points directly to the engine or CPU/GPU?

 

[DragoonKnight]

It is not connected in a way that will conduct any significant amounts of heat, especially compared to your ship's active cooling systems. Does your entire laptop get uniformly hot when your CPU/GPU temps rise or does your entire car get uniformly hot when your engine temp rises?

I am glad that you intimately familiar with the internal structure of the ships in the Elite universe. Do you have a source for this information or did you pull it out of uranus?

Your equation is suitable for treating an object like a solid block of iron. It cannot be readily applied to a CPU/GPU cooling system because the system is too complex to be treated in that way. The same principles of heat transfer might apply to each individual component in the cooling system but assumptions made by the equations prevent you from treating the system in that manner.

I am not trying to model a CPU/GPU cooling system. The heat transfer from a spaceship hull (or radiator if you prefer) is governed by different formulas.

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Then why would you ever suggest that the "mounting points" in a car engine or CPU/GPU play any role in cooling the heat generated by these devices? I don't understand how you could actually know how these devices work and then claim that something as trivial as mounting points would contribute to the cooling process.

I suggested that the mounting points in a spaceship would play a significant role in heat transfer. I never said anything about a car or laptop.

I understand the equations, I've been through senior university courses where I've had to calculate exceptionally tiny changes in material properties based on miniscule temperature changes. I also know that the equations you presented can't be applied directly to car engine or CPU/GPU cooling because of the various factors involved.

You are the only one who is trying to talk about cooling computers and cars. When I presented equations I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about spaceships in Elite.

 

[Devari]

I am glad that you intimately familiar with the internal structure of the ships in the Elite universe. Do you have a source for this information or did you pull it out of Uranus?

FD has told us in general terms how cooling works on Elite ships. We know that Elite ships use components that generate significant amounts of heat and requires active cooling. Engaging silent running shuts down this active cooling so we know that there is very little "passive cooling" that conducts heat from the mounting points to the hull.

I am not trying to model a CPU/GPU cooling system. The heat transfer from a spaceship hull (or radiator if you prefer) is governed by different formulas.

I suggested that the mounting points in a spaceship would play a significant role in heat transfer. I never said anything about a car or laptop.

You are the only one who is trying to talk about cooling computers and cars. When I presented equations I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about spaceships in Elite.

So based on your experiences with cars and computers, both of which have components (car engine or CPU/GPU) that generate significant amounts of heat, and require active cooling, you decided that you would "explain" Elite spaceships using entirely different principles? In other words, you would ignore everything you claim to "know" about machines that generate heat and assume that Elite uses a completely different process where heat is passively conducted from component mounting points directly to the ship's hull?

That makes zero sense. We know that Elite ships use active cooling systems and little, if any, heat is transferred directly to the ship's hull. If you turn off the active cooling systems heat rises very rapidly, much like what would happen in a car's engine or CPU/GPU if you disable the cooling system. You should therefore not be able to specifically increase the heat of a component by "transferring" heat through the hull to the component through it's mounting points. That is simply not how the cooling systems work in Elite.

 

[DragoonKnight]

FD has told us in general terms how cooling works on Elite ships. We know that Elite ships use components that generate significant amounts of heat and requires active cooling. Engaging silent running shuts down this active cooling so we know that there is very little "passive cooling" that conducts heat from the mounting points to the hull.



So based on your experiences with cars and computers, both of which have components (car engine or CPU/GPU) that generate significant amounts of heat, and require active cooling, you decided that you would "explain" Elite spaceships using entirely different principles? In other words, you would ignore everything you claim to "know" about machines that generate heat and assume that Elite uses a completely different process where heat is passively conducted from component mounting points directly to the ship's hull?

That makes zero sense. We know that Elite ships use active cooling systems and little, if any, heat is transferred directly to the ship's hull. If you turn off the active cooling systems heat rises very rapidly, much like what would happen in a car's engine or CPU/GPU if you disable the cooling system. You should therefore not be able to specifically increase the heat of a component by "transferring" heat through the hull to the component through it's mounting points. That is simply not how the cooling systems work in Elite.

Cooling system in Elite have to follow basic physics. There are only 3 ways to get rid of heat. Two of those do not apply in a vacuum. The only way to dissipate heat in space is by radiation. You cant have convection or conduction, something that laptops and cars benefit from on earth.

"Active cooling" is not a magical solution. Your ship in Elite has to radiate heat away from itself in order to stay cool. The only thing that "active cooling" can do is move the heat from one place to another. The concept is the same as a split unit air conditioning system. You take the heat and move it someplace else. You are then able to "dump" that heat where it will not cause you problems. There are only so many ways you can move the heat.

And the only reason that you do not think that a module that gets extremely hot (like a powerplant or thrusters for example) would not significantly heat its "connection/mounting point" on the hull is because you have never dealt with extreme cases of such things in real life. I'll give you an example. Look at the diagram below
http://rogerdanielsalignment.com/images/brakediagram.jpg

When you brake a lot from high speed (racing conditions) that rotor gets really hot. Can be 1300-1600F. Heat transfers to the pads, which transfer it to the caliper, which transfers it to the brake lines and brake fluid. The result is that your brake fluid boils. Brake fluid used in race cars has a boiling point of around 500-600 F.

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Same concept with spaceships. When you are talking about a temp of 100-200 F, with an ambient temp of 75 F then it is barely significant. When you start dealing with more extreme temperatures then the transfer of heat starts to matter even on contact points that do not have a relatively large surface area.

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Coming back to spaceships....
Given that our hulls are basically modular. How exactly do you see the internal components attached to the hull?
Internals have to attach somewhere and require some sort of internal structure to be attached to. There have to be connections for electricity, plumbing, structural rigidity, and basic ingress/egress.
And even if you could free float your internals in a vacuum inside the hull, then you lose out on the benefit of transferring heat away from your modules by conduction.

 

[Devari]

Cooling system in Elite have to follow basic physics. There are only 3 ways to get rid of heat. Two of those do not apply in a vacuum. The only way to dissipate heat in space is by radiation. You cant have convection or conduction, something that laptops and cars benefit from on earth.

"Active cooling" is not a magical solution. Your ship in Elite has to radiate heat away from itself in order to stay cool. The only thing that "active cooling" can do is move the heat from one place to another. The concept is the same as a split unit air conditioning system. You take the heat and move it someplace else. You are then able to "dump" that heat where it will not cause you problems. There are only so many ways you can move the heat.

We know that the cooling system for Elite ships needs to be functioning to cool the internal components and this heat needs to be vented through the external radiators. We don't know exactly how the heat is transferred from the modules, it may involve some type of coolant loop or conducted by some type of heat sink system, but it is not a passive process where the heat is simply conducted through the "mounting points" of the modules to the hull. Here are some quotes from the Elite manual:

In simple terms, the hotter a ship is internally, the harder the cooling system works, the more heat is radiated and the bigger its signature becomes.

The manual goes on to describe the effect of rigging a ship for silent running, which involves closing the external radiators, i.e., vents that the ship uses to get rid of the heat generated by internal components:

When so rigged, your cooling vents are locked shut, preventing heat from being radiated out into space.

It's analogous to blocking the fan vents on your laptop. There is nowhere for the heat to go so the cooling system can't actively cool your components when the vents are closed. Anyone who has tried running a laptop while it is sitting on a bed or blanket, with the heating vents blocked, will realize that the fans can't do their job properly when the vents are blocked. There is no mention in the description of silent running about the cooling system "heating your ship's hull" or "conducting heat to the ship's hull" or any similar descriptions. It's clearly describing an active cooling system that needs to vent heat through external vents and when these vents are closed the heat has no way of reaching the exterior of the ship.

And the only reason that you do not think that a module that gets extremely hot (like a powerplant or thrusters for example) would not significantly heat its "connection/mounting point" on the hull is because you have never dealt with extreme cases of such things in real life.

I never said that the heat would not affect the mounting point, I said that the conducted heat would not contribute significantly to the COOLING of the mounted component. In fact if anything I would expect mounting points to need to be specifically designed to deal with the high heat stresses that the component is subjected to but that this would not be designed as part of the "cooling" system as the actual amount of heat that you could conduct through the mounting point would be a tiny fraction of the heat generated by the component.

I'll give you an example. Look at the diagram below
http://rogerdanielsalignment.com/images/brakediagram.jpg

When you brake a lot from high speed (racing conditions) that rotor gets really hot. Can be 1300-1600F. Heat transfers to the pads, which transfer it to the caliper, which transfers it to the brake lines and brake fluid. The result is that your brake fluid boils. Brake fluid used in race cars has a boiling point of around 500-600 F.

Transferring heat to mounting points is not a method of cooling, it's an unintended consequence of the excess heat. Elite ships wouldn't use those mounting points as part of a cooling system, they would likely need to reinforce them and use metal alloys with high melting points the same as a race car needing to use brake fluid with a higher boiling point.

That's my point here. You're failing to make the connection between these real-life examples in a way that would be logical and consistent. Does any race car use heat conducted from pads/rotors, to brake calipers and then to the brake fluid as a method of cooling the brake rotors? No? Then why would you expect the mounting points for the thrusters on an Elite ship to use the heat conducted through these mounting points to cool the engines?

You need to apply the engineering principles in a consistent manner, you are making the exact OPPOSITE argument about brake fluid here. The brake fluid does not COOL the brakes, it is HEATED by the brakes. It's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

 

[DragoonKnight]

When you shut down active cooling and go into SR, you simply dont transfer heat away from the modules fast enough.
However, there is still something there behind that hull that would normally do so. Perhaps it is refrigerant or some future tech equivalent. Heating up that refrigerant (and its plumbing) through the hull (since they are in contact with each other) would transfer heat to the cooling system. That thermal shock weapon is effectively an external input into your refrigeration cycle. A cooling system is only rated to transfer so much heat. As we already discussed, a hot object will be less effective at transferring heat away than a cold one. So now you are transferring less heat away from your modules. Ship overheats.

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Cooling system in Elite have to follow basic physics. There are only 3 ways to get rid of heat. Two of those do not apply in a vacuum. The only way to dissipate heat in space is by radiation. You cant have convection or conduction, something that laptops and cars benefit from on earth.

"Active cooling" is not a magical solution. Your ship in Elite has to radiate heat away from itself in order to stay cool. The only thing that "active cooling" can do is move the heat from one place to another. The concept is the same as a split unit air conditioning system. You take the heat and move it someplace else. You are then able to "dump" that heat where it will not cause you problems. There are only so many ways you can move the heat.



I never said that the heat would not affect the mounting point, I said that the conducted heat would not contribute significantly to the COOLING of the mounted component. In fact if anything I would expect mounting points to need to be specifically designed to deal with the high heat stresses that the component is subjected to but that this would not be designed as part of the "cooling" system as the actual amount of heat that you could conduct through the mounting point would be a tiny fraction of the heat generated by the component.



Transferring heat to mounting points is not a method of cooling, it's an unintended consequence of the excess heat. Elite ships wouldn't use those mounting points as part of a cooling system, they would likely need to reinforce them and use metal alloys with high melting points the same as a race car needing to use brake fluid with a higher boiling point.

That's my point here. You're failing to make the connection between these real-life examples in a way that would be logical and consistent. Does any race car use heat conducted from pads/rotors, to brake calipers and then to the brake fluid as a method of cooling the brake rotors? No? Then why would you expect the mounting points for the thrusters on an Elite ship to use the heat conducted through these mounting points to cool the engines?

You need to apply the engineering principles in a consistent manner, you are making the exact OPPOSTE argument about brake fluid here. The brake fluid does not COOL the brakes, it is HEATED by the brakes. It's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

Why do you keep talking about "the cooling effect of the mounting point"? That would be under normal conditions.
What I am trying to tell you is that when your ship hull temp is being increased, then that mounting point will also get hot and transfer that heat back to whatever is connected to it. Things inside are much more sensitive to heat than outside.

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That's my point here. You're failing to make the connection between these real-life examples in a way that would be logical and consistent. Does any race car use heat conducted from pads/rotors, to brake calipers and then to the brake fluid as a method of cooling the brake rotors? No? Then why would you expect the mounting points for the thrusters on an Elite ship to use the heat conducted through these mounting points to cool the engines?

You need to read my posts more carefully. I never said that the mounting points are used for cooling effect. I said that they can be a point of heat transfer into the hull from excessive heat of that component.
There is a difference which you have either failed to understand or simply misread.

 

[DragoonKnight]

And a mounting point that can take the heat without melting does not necessarily make for a poor conductor of heat.