Walking in stations/spaceships + boarding

[Kaocraft]

The thing is, I think walking around should be PART of the core game. It's not a novelty.
Boarding, stealing ships, EVA to investigate wreckages, doing passenger transport with the Beluga Liner or the Orca, talking to NPCs, having multiple crew on your huge ship manning turrets and stuff... None of this can be considered a "novelty" since it DRASTICALLY changes the game.

That's why I personally think it's better to add it sooner rather than later since it will introduce so many new mechanics and ways to play the game that it will have a gigantic impact on the game as it is now and will basically break everything. the earlier they do this, the easier it will be to fix the game and balance things up again after the addition of spacelegs. The more polish you add to a game, the harder it is to start implementing big features.

The way they would do it it would be a novelty. Look at how they've handled literally everything else. We're better off without the type of space legs/FPS that FDev is likely to be able to create. We don't need more empty dead environments with no dynamism, variation, persistence, unique art assets, or interactivity. We don't need any more single-purpose shallow game mechanics. It's time to add depth to the core experience. Let's do gas giants. Let's do in-depth hyperspace jump mechanics. Let's do interesting uses for surface scanners. Let's do "tier 2" NPCs and the ability to communicate with NPC ships. Let's populate planet surfaces with NPC SRVs, Conflict Zones, mining sites. Let's have ship names and ship reputations. Let's have different systems with different laws and different types of appearances and behaviors that actually matter. Let's have a trading system where price fluctuations and the BGS actually matter. Let's get rid of combat logging. Let's NEVER hear the words "3D Printing" used as an explanation for a hokey and unconvincing game mechanic, Etc.

 

[thorn-]

I never said it wasn't. Even so, rigging the 3D model for the pilot with a skeleton and creating a walk cycle and a running cycle and shooting animations isn't going to take months

Have you ever done it? Complete with collision calculations in a dynamic environment?

 

[Sunsol]

Have you ever done it? Complete with collision calculations in a dynamic environment?

Seeing as they already have the tools available to them in the engine their running it literally won't take but a couple of months. This is with a good sized team. One man could do it with the tools.

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I'm talking about the animation to clarify.

 

[mrsiCkstar]

Have you ever done it? Complete with collision calculations in a dynamic environment?

I've created character models, rigged them and animated them. I'm not claiming to be an expert, in fact I'm far from it. It's a hobby I picked up. But if I, with practically no experience, can create a set of movement animations for a character in a week, I have to assume that a pro team of developers can do it 100 times better than I can in the same time.

They already implemented the SRV, so we're already able to leave our ships and move around on the surfaces of planets. What's the difference with walking? The difference is the 3D model we move around looks like a pilot, the animations look like a pilot moving, and the movement speed is a lot slower. The pilot weighs a lot less, but we already have debris and cargo floating around in space, so the engine can clearly handle physics for all kinds of objects.

If they wanted to rush out the simplest form of spacelegs you can think of, which is us walking around on a planet's surface with no other gameplay, they could do it pretty fast.

I'm not trying to diminish the amount of work spacelegs would take to implement properly. It's a massive amount of work to do it really well. My original comment was just meant to express that at it's very core, moving around is moving around. Weather it's a ship in space or a guy in a hallway, it's still boils down to an object moving around in an environment. It's not like a completely new discipline, or a programming language that would take a massive amount of time to learn how to do.

 

[Sunsol]

The way they would do it it would be a novelty. Look at how they've handled literally everything else. We're better off without the type of space legs/FPS that FDev is likely to be able to create. We don't need more empty dead environments with no dynamism, variation, persistence, unique art assets, or interactivity. We don't need any more single-purpose shallow game mechanics. It's time to add depth to the core experience. Let's do gas giants. Let's do in-depth hyperspace jump mechanics. Let's do interesting uses for surface scanners. Let's do "tier 2" NPCs and the ability to communicate with NPC ships. Let's populate planet surfaces with NPC SRVs, Conflict Zones, mining sites. Let's have ship names and ship reputations. Let's have different systems with different laws and different types of appearances and behaviors that actually matter. Let's have a trading system where price fluctuations and the BGS actually matter. Let's get rid of combat logging. Let's NEVER hear the words "3D Printing" used as an explanation for a hokey and unconvincing game mechanic, Etc.

Nothing you suggested changes the way the game is played it's just more stuff not more depth. None of the actual mechanics are being changed here except for a working economy which I agree should be implemented.

As for combat logging it's a work around while the bug fix and balance. Have you seen that thermal heat meta. My god.

3d printing is literally giving people what they want. You want immersion/ explanation there you go. the explanation actually works have you seen 3d printing today? Imagine in a hundred years in thousands of years? and as they make the game their going to think of fun things to add that conflict with previous rules. That's fine. That's how change works and if you complain about it you get crap instead.

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I've created character models, rigged them and animated them. I'm not claiming to be an expert, in fact I'm far from it. It's a hobby I picked up. But if I, with practically no experience, can create a set of movement animations for a character in a week, I have to assume that a pro team of developers can do it 100 times better than I can in the same time.

They already implemented the SRV, so we're already able to leave our ships and move around on the surfaces of planets. What's the difference with walking? The difference is the 3D model we move around looks like a pilot, the animations look like a pilot moving, and the movement speed is a lot slower. The pilot weighs a lot less, but we already have debris and cargo floating around in space, so the engine can clearly handle physics for all kinds of objects.

If they wanted to rush out the simplest form of spacelegs you can think of, which is us walking around on a planet's surface with no other gameplay, they could do it pretty fast.

I guarantee they already have walking ready. They're polishing it of course but your right it's not that hard seeing as they already have all the tools in place.

 

[Sunsol]

Also unreal has a program that lets you use their engine and port in characters you can then animate their skeleton within that engine or buy already animated skeletons. You can animate a character in about an hour and add a camera. That's an uneducated inexperienced person making a crappy person walk around.

 

[lysan]

It is and it was. And is already in the cards as not being too far off - in relative terms. 2.3 will have multi-crew and character generation/customization. Ships are already made with walking around in mind. So they are getting all their ducks into a neat little row, and will announce space-legs when good and ready.

If I were a betting man, I'd say as a run-up to Season 3 in order to create a lot of buzz and get us all to open our wallets and beg Braben to take as much as he wants if we can just get our mitts on 3.0 ASAP

This guy gets it, it was always in the plan, not from the start by down the road. Regarding SC they added all the features when the money train arrived, lets see how much of it they actually can do.
ED will have all the space game mechanics i want, I don't need SC.

 

[who?]

They stated a LONG time ago that Season 3 (or Update 2, as they put it then) would include FPS/interiors. I don't know if that's still the plan, but based on what's being done with avatars during Season 2, it certainly looks that way.

I'd be astonished if that meant "walk anywhere", more likely IMO is that the "interiors" will be added in steps. Walk around our own ship first, then possibly spacewalking & boarding. Walking on a planet surface, and exploring station interiors possibly towards the end. I'd be very pleasantly surprised (shocked) if we got them all at once.

 

[bummer6]

SC going at it completely wrong... please explain?? As I see it, SC is doing it completely right with what is currently available, and gameplay shown for v3.0 at Gamescom.

As for FD "pulling it off," that is not the reason to do it. As noted in earlier thread, ED now has a mechanic that works. You, and all others on here, along with all the community tools/content, showcase this fact..., space legs excluded. Frankly, none of us knows what is coming unless you are privy to FG internal project material and concept paths. Thus, its simply all speculation.

Fact is, ED is now a spaceship sim where u fly from the pilot's seat and do stuff. New seasons that we know of now, enhance upon this mechanic. Whether space legs was something in orignal planning... well things may change if you have a good thing going, which I believe FG does now.

I also come from the earthly flight sim world of DCG, IL2, CLOD, FSX, etc... and none of these have ability to get out of plane, except when bailing. Similarly, ED is a space ship simulation that drives gameplay from the pilot's seat. It works, its cool, and its immersive. What I see is FG building upon that mechanic which they have quite successfully employed.

Okay, I will explain how SC is going at it wrong... Did you see the gamescom demo? With the fancy NPC cutscene where the dude sits down and has a conversation with a super detailed NPC with full voice acting and everything. This wont work. It just will not work in a multiplayer scenario, ever. SC does a lot of things right as well, but they shot themselves in the foot by using a pre-packaged engine like Cryengine while FD is using their own engine that can basically handle whatever they want it to handle. FD is approaching this from the correct angle and adding things in the correct order, which makes me believe they can pull it off. They are building a solid foundation that wont crumble once they add walking around into the mix, and that's great.

As for the whole discussion concerning animations and whatnot, I happen to have some experience with 3D animation. Nothing huge, just walkcycles, idle animations, etc. I can tell you with confidence that adding the animation is NOT the problem here. If it was just about adding animation then it would take a matter of weeks before we had a simple demo of a dude walking around inside a ship.

 

[Mark Lock]

I still think demand for space legs and multicrew come from a lack of thinking through what it will then entail.

Multicrew is just bonkers - what do they do for 90% of the time while you trade and pilot and make jumps? that's enough to keep one person busy but several? Minigames ahoy. Manned turrets etc are just mental - trying to keep track of what's going on as ships pitch and roll and turn is dizzying in the extreme.

I can see it's appeal in the extreme space sims where you control every button, but not in the relative fun of Elite.

Space legs links to that - the amount of time and situations where EVA/boarding are actually sane actions is really really low. Leaving your ship is nigh on suicide in situations where other ships may be about - a rail gun to the chest is nothing to laugh about. For the quantity of work it entails it's usefulness seems quite low - especially stations and cities where it's mostly making a super-quick menu interface into a long meander that'll quickly tire

Meh. Grumps. Etc. And welcome to the Frontier Forums, it's different here

I don't agree, space legs is a great feature, just being able to walk around your ship or a station is awesome, it adds to the immersion and honestly it's the main reason that made me buy the game at BETA, it's not just about boarding another ship, EVA and walking around can be fun just like driving your SRV around without an aim, they are fun activities I love doing along with missions and other stuff, that will open a wide range of gameplay scenarios including multiplayer, you could take a multicrew ship with your friends and go do something together, combat missions for example, boarding a ship can be fun if you do it with your friends, one can stay at helm of your ship, another can stay at turret, you and another few can border enemy ship, you could attack a planetary base as well, later go hunt wild animals on planets with an atmosphere, there is a lot of stuff you can do, it's not about poor thinking, many of us want these features because they open a wide range of possibilities.

 

[Mark Lock]

They stated a LONG time ago that Season 3 (or Update 2, as they put it then) would include FPS/interiors. I don't know if that's still the plan, but based on what's being done with avatars during Season 2, it certainly looks that way.

I'd be astonished if that meant "walk anywhere", more likely IMO is that the "interiors" will be added in steps. Walk around our own ship first, then possibly spacewalking & boarding. Walking on a planet surface, and exploring station interiors possibly towards the end. I'd be very pleasantly surprised (shocked) if we got them all at once.

Agreed, they will release the character creator first so we can create our own avatar that others will see when walking around, there is no other explanation, Season 3 will have FPS content + interiors, planets with atmosphere will come later on, however we will probably be able to walk on airless planets in SEASON 3 and maybe do FPS missions , attack bases etc...

 

[Mark Lock]

So at the moment you can for example undertake a mission to escort a convoy of ships. You can Wing up with a team of Wingmen (CMDR or NPC), and then have to escort the ships (for example) between two Nav beacons (arriving at A, leaving at B). Between these beacons they come under attack and you can assign the NPCs to attack/defend specific targets.

Of course (in OPEN) there could be counter missions to attack this convoy. So you find CMDRs being offered CRs to destroy the very convoy you are protecting.

And of course, these exact same mechanics can be re-used for CGs and Powerplay of course.


So you can for example have a station blockaded? So you come out of SG a long distance out from the station, and have to decide if you then want to flay the last leg (in normal flight) to it. You could be a trader trying to get good in for high profits. You could be an enforcer of the blockade, potentially on a fighter tour of duty on the station. You could be controlling a wing of NPC ships, or working withj a Wing of friends. Or you could be trying to break the blockade, or escort traders through. Again potentially working on a fighter on a capital ship.

And of course, these exact same mechanics can be re-used for CGs and Powerplay of course.


And let's not even start with piracy, which is comically incomplete as a "corner stone" profession. That needs lots of work TBH.

What ever happened to silent/cold running and some real depth and purpose to it? At kickstarter time, the first video footage of cold running suggested lots of interesting mechanics... Seemingly which have now been forgotten about. eg: Stealth missions into enemy asteroid fields to locate items without being detected?

Mining? Is there the slightest depth that DB inferred would exist at Kickstarter? Where you could go out and be rewarded for exploration by finding a rich resource? No.. Because like most other elements in the game, they're all self contained mini-games which really don't have any meaning or statefulness. ie: You can sit in a extraction site and vapourise the procession of Wanteds turning up for no other reason than to die on your lasers for ever... Destroying more ships than have ever been made. Vapourising more metal than the galaxy contains... And yet still they'll come. And you can mine an area for a year, and not a jot will change. This is not what was inferred at kickstarter time.

And the background sims trading model? Never quite worked has it.

I'm sorry, but at the moment the existing mechanics are thin. They need to be beefed up IMHO before looking at radically new areas such as first person which in itself will require just as much development effort.

Now I know this all sounds a tad harsh but the game has not moved in the way I'd like it to over the past year. Eg: Powerplay, CQC and The Engineers have been questionable allocations of valuable development time IMHO. eg: Adding 33% more pewpew (risking yet more balancing issues) really isn't interesting new gamplay for me.


Walking around is easy... It's what the game would need to offer that you can do in first person. Often you hear comments like, "Well, I'll repair my ship." How will that gameplay be added? What will it consist of to make it remotely interesting? Point at something and hold space bar?

What other interesting things will you be able to do in First Person? Think about the actual gameplay... and how much work that will be... And meanwhile the core game elements are being left as almost a list of place holders.

Yeahh doing a EVA to go repair modules with a solder in hand would be awesome, there are tons of things you can do in first person, read my previous comments for a few

 

[xondk]

No... Season 3 will be adding all the mechanics into the game that are currently "place holders"...

Then walking around in the ED universe might be worth while... (Season 4+)

My fear is, FD will add it sooner than later (& sooner than a time when the game can make the most of it) as a marketing exercise. Probably like aliens

Which are 'placeholders'? compared to any other game out there I have to wonder this statement.

And last I checked Season 3 has been confirmed to be the first person season, will try to find quote.

 

[Sunsol]

Agreed, they will release the character creator first so we can create our own avatar that others will see when walking around, there is no other explanation, Season 3 will have FPS content + interiors, planets with atmosphere will come later on, however we will probably be able to walk on airless planets in SEASON 3 and maybe do FPS missions , attack bases etc...

I'm going to guess it will be delivered in stages 3.0 walking inside ships and maybe star ports( their getting an overhaul so I wouldn't be surprised if they added some lookie loo rooms inside) 3.1 fps combat and boarding 3.2 customization and tweaks 3.3 airless fps maybe Fps arena 3.4Game over man game over!

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Which are 'placeholders'? compared to any other game out there I have to wonder this statement.

And last I checked Season 3 has been confirmed to be the first person season, will try to find quote.

The thing he's suggesting could be done in tandem to legs season which seems to be FDs m.o there are things being added all the time to enrich the things that are already there.

 

[Sara Lyons]

Okay, I will explain how SC is going at it wrong... Did you see the gamescom demo? With the fancy NPC cutscene where the dude sits down and has a conversation with a super detailed NPC with full voice acting and everything. This wont work. It just will not work in a multiplayer scenario, ever. SC does a lot of things right as well, but they shot themselves in the foot by using a pre-packaged engine like Cryengine while FD is using their own engine that can basically handle whatever they want it to handle. FD is approaching this from the correct angle and adding things in the correct order, which makes me believe they can pull it off. They are building a solid foundation that wont crumble once they add walking around into the mix, and that's great.

As for the whole discussion concerning animations and whatnot, I happen to have some experience with 3D animation. Nothing huge, just walkcycles, idle animations, etc. I can tell you with confidence that adding the animation is NOT the problem here. If it was just about adding animation then it would take a matter of weeks before we had a simple demo of a dude walking around inside a ship.

You do realize the people who made cryengine to begin with, work for CIG? And that most quest givers won't meet you face to face like that?

 

[WindWpn]

Okay, I will explain how SC is going at it wrong... Did you see the gamescom demo? With the fancy NPC cutscene where the dude sits down and has a conversation with a super detailed NPC with full voice acting and everything. This wont work. It just will not work in a multiplayer scenario, ever. SC does a lot of things right as well, but they shot themselves in the foot by using a pre-packaged engine like Cryengine while FD is using their own engine that can basically handle whatever they want it to handle. FD is approaching this from the correct angle and adding things in the correct order, which makes me believe they can pull it off. They are building a solid foundation that wont crumble once they add walking around into the mix, and that's great.

Indeed, I do not disagree on that point. I did watch the gamescom demo live and thought same thing in an MMO space. Basically that level of NPC mission interaction does not make sense. HOWEVER, I believe that snippet was taste of their campaign based branch, Squadron 42. That level of interaction and mission dynamic is likely something that players will experience in the "offline" campaign. Likely for the MMO, mission generation would require some other form of dynamic or perhaps seeded interaction; however, idea being that your experience as your avatar would be different from mine. Yet, gameplay showcased during the demo such as the one player directly interacting with the other and seeing the perspective from both sides at same time... that is pretty revolutionary! Also scenes in the demo such as the derelict ship/salvage experience and FPS action would be totally random/plausable in the MMO.

All in all, regardless of what happens, the best thing is that we have this stuff coming. Whatever ED does, whatever SC does, hell, whatever NMS does, we have some cool foundations in the space sim arena. FUN times, and that is what it is all about!

 

[Sunsol]

Indeed, I do not disagree on that point. I did watch the gamescom demo live and thought same thing in an MMO space. Basically that level of NPC mission interaction does not make sense. HOWEVER, I believe that snippet was taste of their campaign based branch, Squadron 42. That level of interaction and mission dynamic is likely something that players will experience in the "offline" campaign. Likely for the MMO, mission generation would require some other form of dynamic or perhaps seeded interaction; however, idea being that your experience as your avatar would be different from mine. Yet, gameplay showcased during the demo such as the one player directly interacting with the other and seeing the perspective from both sides at same time... that is pretty revolutionary! Also scenes in the demo such as the derelict ship/salvage experience and FPS action would be totally random/plausable in the MMO.

All in all, regardless of what happens, the best thing is that we have this stuff coming. Whatever ED does, whatever SC does, hell, whatever NMS does, we have some cool foundations in the space sim arena. FUN times, and that is what it is all about!

I think the main thing with SC is there timetable. As for NMS.. from what I've seen they lied about a lot of the stuff that would be in the game. Also their whole -survival- dynamic is garbage like the rest of the survival games being shelled out lately.

 

[NeilF]

Which are 'placeholders'? compared to any other game out there I have to wonder this statement.

And last I checked Season 3 has been confirmed to be the first person season, will try to find quote.

Comes down to expectations I guess... The game feels thin for me; So many elements are just self contained mini-games with little/no cause or effect or outcome.

eg: Bounty Hunting? Sounds sexy, but it's just going to an area where a never ending stream of Wanted come to commit suicide.

And consider the level of combat missions/gameplay? X-Wing from 20+ years ago had more involved gameplay depth in this department. Why is that still the case after approaching two years?


In truth though this is just my frustration talking as I think this is it for the game TBH. I don't think it will really flesh out. I fear it's going to pretty much remain a galaxy wide, inch deep sand box.

 

[Bam]

I would prefer to be able to land on any planet and go about in some vehicle than have to walk everywhere.
The SC walking about gameplay looks very nice, but I dont want to spend 5 mins walking from my ship to a bar to click on a guy who gives me a mission, to walk back to my ship.

Seeing other players in your ship with multi-crew would be fun, but would it give you an advantage in combat other than being able to do a war dance?

Just my opinion though.

 

[burzum]

By the slow progress of season two and the still flawed base game I guess you can expect this around 2022.

Meanwhile you can wait for Star Citizen that will offer all of this by the end of this year if everything goes well. Oh, it's still an alpha but going to deliver what was promised while FDEV has thrown a prototype on the marked being sold and advertised as a finished product. The seasons are basically a paid ongoing development.