More sophisticated new AI combat behaviour observed
- Thread starter Truesilver
- Start date
The fact that AI are using it suggests that FD believe it's a viable combat tactic.
I'm happy that the AI is now using reverski, as it is one of the only ways to be combat effective in a massive ship, or a ship that maneuvers rather slowly.
I'm still hoping for the punishing AI to return some day... maybe make a "pirate den" or something in an RES and have it be loaded with high AI pirates? I dunno.
I'm still hoping for the punishing AI to return some day... maybe make a "pirate den" or something in an RES and have it be loaded with high AI pirates? I dunno.
There's nothing wrong with having the AI do the reverski, provided the chain interdictions and insta-spawn are resolved. When it happens with humans, there isn't an insta-spawn for a start and most aggressors will most likely lose interest and give up if reverski is their tactic and their prey simply disengages when it happens (it may take a while but they will eventually learn). NPC's on the other hand will never give up and never learn until you reach a station or leave the system (i.e. it becomes a major chore instead of fun, and it's also no fun trying to tactically avoid the interdiction when it happens the moment they appear), and don't forget they'll also magically appear should you drop, which again is just annoying.
It was also this that was the problem with NPC when they used to run to charge shields in the 2.1 beta, it wasn't the mechanic itself, it was that they never stopped interdicting you and then as soon as they did, they would run away to finish charging their shields.
It was also this that was the problem with NPC when they used to run to charge shields in the 2.1 beta, it wasn't the mechanic itself, it was that they never stopped interdicting you and then as soon as they did, they would run away to finish charging their shields.
Actually, the combat in the game was a lot of fun if you know how to play with the Newtonian physics. There is a great 5-minute combat tutorial on Youtube that explains it. The key was to switch engines off and just work with forward and reverse thrust, applying it in small bursts. I had great fun with Frontier and First Encounters and once you got the hang of it the combat was great.
This would be again cheating. Let me explain:
-powerplant malfunctions below 80% from time to time. For THIS you need powermanagement because at a malfunction you only have 50% energy output
-if the powerplant goes down to 0% the energy output should be 0% also and no maneuvering possible
So if the NPC's still maneuver at 0% powerplant, the definitly cheat. Restart is okay and something i have always wished they do
But 0% is 0% and there shouldn't be any energy left.
This would be again cheating. Let me explain:
-powerplant malfunctions below 80% from time to time. For THIS you need powermanagement because at a malfunction you only have 50% energy output
-if the powerplant goes down to 0% the energy output should be 0% also and no maneuvering possible
So if the NPC's still maneuver at 0% powerplant, the definitly cheat. Restart is okay and something i have always wished they do
But 0% is 0% and there shouldn't be any energy left.
Sorry Lucius but this is not how the power plant module works. These are not the rules for Cmdrs.
A power plant malfunction temporarily reduces power output to 40% (not 50%).
A power plant reduction to 0% health reduces power output to 50%. Further hits have RNG chance to destroy. Reboot restores output to 100% but also restores chance of malfunctions.
(Ironically malfunctions being actually worse for power than 0% health!)
Therefore via good power priority settings a Cmdr can set his or her ship up so that drives and (depending on the ship and load out) a number of other modules can function continuously right through malfunctions and even when the power plant is at 0%.
An example from practice: Adle's Armada v Triadius, Match 3 of Season 1 of the PvP League. Triadius fielded a hull-tank Python with power priorities set so that he could still move and shoot - pretty much fighting as normal - even after we had his power plant at 0%.
I don't doubt that you enjoyed it some people really did.
I personally did not and I think that was what the majority felt, hence what we have now.
I'm not sure that programming AIs to run away when faced with negative tactics is a good thing, because it would encourage more of it.
It is pretty naff as regards fun as a tactic, isn't it?
Chain interdictions are annoying but entirely rational behaviour. Why would they give up? I'd personally go down the channel of ensuring that they retain hull and shield damage between interdicts. Then the chain interdictions will not seem such a battle of attrition.
Although people would still complain about it a lot because they are being chased down and hunted. That is human nature though. This is why I quite like the current mine drop tactic and am quite pleased that AI are pretty bad at avoiding them. It allows pure traders with a bit of sense to play the game 'their way' and go about business without impacting the wider game for other types of player. In this game, such solutions are rare, as every balance seems to impact other areas of PvP or PvE play and causes outrage.
There has been a recent hush of 'I just want to trade this game is awful' posts which for once seems to indicate a level of contentment.
If the AIs can now outsmart mines, it would be nice to throw pure traders a bone in return, possibly via the mechanic outlined above.
It's a very effective tactic to reduce the effectiveness of manoeuvring. What remains is a match of facing ships pounding each other's shields and armour until they fail. No manoeuvring skills needed, just a tricked out loadout (very boring IMHO).
I am surprised Frontier uses this tactic for NPCs now since they designed the airplane-like flight characteristics of the ships to make turning fights possible (like WW2 fighters). They rightly foresaw that using the FE2 and FFE flight model would lead to turreting and orbiting fights with both ships facing each other (face tanking). Apparently they didn't realise that by allowing FA-off and high speed reverse flying they opened a backdoor to the flip&reverse tactic killing manoeuvring as a viable tactic and resulting in face tanking again. Using the reverski in NPCs achieves the opposite of what they set out to achieve.
Quite, and programming the AI to run away in the face of such behaviour even more so.
Ultimately, I believe that it should be a tactic open to the AI in response to the player, but not their default tactic. If we wanted to face each other and trade DPS until one of us runs out of HP and healing, there's plenty of other MMOs which do exactly that.
As is though, I rarely see it used by NPCs, which could be related to me not doing it either... so current use of it does not seem in any way excessive to me.
In 2.1 the high ranked NPCs (Deadly, Elite) do it all the time. These NPCs also have engineers upgrades to their drives that allow them to fly very fast in reverse. I sometimes face NPCs (FDS, Clipper, Python) that fly so fast in reverse that my FdL with grade 3 dirty drives (boost speed 470) struggles to overtake them. And once I get past them they boost and do a flip&reverse turning the manoeuvre into just another cycle of jousting. If I succeed in getting behind them and staying there (probably the ones that didn't get grade 5 DD from the RNG gods) they always do a boost + flip&reverse and the jousting starts again. If I'm in the right position to boost after them I can postpone the onset of jousting long enough to do real damage but inevetably jousting begins again.
I have no problem with Elite NPCs that are very hard to beat but they should be relatively rare and not capitalise on a single (anti)manoeuvre. Then it would be fights I'd still remember fondly weeks later.
I am playing the same game, of course.
And with respect I must disagree. I was in the FDL yesterday and did not see it employed at all often - to the point that when an FDL did a full reverse flying thing at me, it stood out in memory.
So - presuming that you are not a victim of confirmation or perception bias - the tactic is perhaps instigated by player tactics. What might you be doing which encourages the NPC to stop trying to dogfight and just reverse flying instead? What am I doing which means it seldom feels the need to pull the stunt?
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Are you sure? A good indication are the smoke trails from the engines. I see them streaming towards the front of the ship very often during combat. Often at an angle to the hull because they pitch and yaw trying to aim at me. Also the retro thrusters lighting up is an indication.
The attitude of an NPC as viewed from your ship is not a good indication of its direction of movement because they control all thrusters separately (sort of permanent FA-off). What they typically do is thrusting away from you along the line of sight while pitching the nose towards you (rolling if necessary to keep their top side towards you).
Absolutely.
But if you think that my perceptions are being tricked by the difficulties of tracking delta-v in a featureless void, then I would point out that last week's BH CG was in an icy ring where such motion would be extremely obvious. I saw no evidence of anything more than very occasional NPC reversing there.
The question stands then: What are you doing that causes the AI to use this tactic and what am I doing that does not.
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Although I know little about PvE I think it's at least possible that it is indeed responsive behaviour.
The 'hard mode' AI from early 2.1 responded to whether the player was using FA-off and/or reversing, for example.
For instance: I do not have a fully g5 engineered ship so I can't keep a speed advantage in all circumstances and that opens up possibilities for the NPCs to flip&reverse on me. Also I am not in a wing nor are my weapons engineered so I can't boil them up in one or two passes.
I don't think the flip&reverse is coded explicitly into the behaviour of the NPCs. Here's my working theory on their behaviour (in 1v1). Their rule #1 seems to be to keep range to target at X meters and point the nose at the target to fire weapons and keep position using thrusters in all directions (where distance X seems to vary with ship type, e.g. Adders get very close, Vipers keep more distance). So if you approach the NPC it thrusts away along the line of sight to maintain range while trying to keep aim. If you approach in their forward hemisphere they start to reverse (often side slipping too, see smoke trails). If a player gets too close or lands too many hits (ship type dependent probably) the NPCs reposition by thrusting closely past their attacker (often using boost but not always). After passing they revert to rule #1 again. The higher their rank the more aggressively they use thrusters (pips!) and FA-off to turn tightly and quickly after a pass. If they have engineered thrusters (Deadly, Elite always have) they can turn very quickly and tightly and it becomes a flip. That's also why lower ranked ones fly a normal turn if you get behind them while higher ranked ones often manage a sort of 'turn and flip' and get their nose pointed at you again (unless you boost behind them or destroy them in time).
Depending on how the engagement progresses (shields down, damage) they perform special actions like: ramming, crazy last ditch manoeuvre, running away, high-waking (rare), etc. For the rest their combat skills revolve around managing weapon groups, pips, SCBs, chaff, etc.
I don't think there is something magical (or cheating) going on. It's the result of relatively simple rules, but still annoying.
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Joining the discussion a few days later.
Tonight I took a mission to kill 28 pirates. A friend took a similar mission, same system, same target faction, and we went to a High intensity RES.
He was in a Python, me in a Vulture.
My Vulture was a multi-purpose build : un-modded, equipped with 2 pulse lasers, military armor, bi-weave shield, a 16t cargo rack, SRV bay, fuel scoop, FSD interdictor.
My flying style is : FA-on most of the time (my aim sucks without it), FA-off in turns, heavy use of "up" and "down" thrusters to strafe the ennemies, and a lot of throttle and boost adjustements in order to have max agility whenever possible.
I'm ranked Elite in combat, if this information has any value.
I must say that tonight the NPCs used the reverski A LOT.
Probaly 70-80% of my targets used it, for a very noticeable amount of time (so they were not just "drifting away").
The targets ranged from an Eagle to an Anaconda, including the DBS, DBE, Viper MK3 & 4, FDL, Vulture, Dropship, Assault Ship, Asp Explorer and Adder.
Some of the listed ships didn't use the reverski maneuver every time.
The ships that didn't use it at all are the Sidewinder (maybe he didn't have time), Asp Scout and the Cobra MK3 & 4.
I don't know if it is triggered by player tactic or player ship, my friend in the python seemed to experience it a bit less : his ennemies seemed to prefer dogfighting and stayed in a turning-and-boosting-and-turning maneuver loop.
Maybe the NPCs base their decision on the agility rating of the player ship ?
For me as I said, it was almost every target.
It can be a very efficient tactic, but depending on the ship, it's a bit odd to see the NPCs do the reverski as a primary go-to maneuver.
While the Anaconda had a smart idea to counter my agility advantage, for the Eagle it was spelling DEATH in big underlined red letters, because there is no way he could out-tank a Vulture.
Then again, the Vulture is a good ship and as a result, the engagements where not insanely hard. I only lost shields twice, and both times it was against Deadly FDLs with railguns.
But I have to admit, it makes some ships trickier to engage, and it's a real pain in the butt to counter against a decently mobile ship.
I'll try with a different ship in a different system.