FD - nice balance on the Passenger mission payouts - please, don't nerf them.

You didn't have to exit the game 15 times to fill a ship at Sothis either. People did, just as people will re-log to maximize passenger missions, but you didn't have to.

Mark my words, the nerf crew will return, but only after they've made their millions.

If it comes, it is exactly due to like that. Because obviously quite the amount of people rather prefer to cheap their way arround in games instead nowaydays instead of earning them the stuff they want. Wasn't arround at the Sothis / Ceos time, but when i read 8/mil per hour and python in one sentence i can see why they did something about it. But then again i can only compare that mostly to what a T9 / Conda earned arround before Horizons (which would be at the very best the same) and all the changes afterwards. Maybe someones cares to chime in an about number of those two ships arround those time (numbers with usual trade/missions that is). Just for my personal interest if someone would be kind enough.

P.S And just to clarify, not saying you did that personaly.
 
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Have now spend some good chunk of time with Passanger Mission in the Beluge and I'm having a good time! I even start to like the Beluga, the big fuel tank really did improve the ship a defending passangers with Fighter help is great fun.

But docking, good god. I need to stop trying to stay on the Green side, it always tends to get me into trouble. Take the middle no matter what! :D
 
I bunged a passenger thing into my d-rated exploration asp and I can breeze 30 million an hour by selecting short range tourist tours, 15 million (ish) payout for about 20-25 jumps total with 2 or 3 stops along the way.

When they don't show up there's 2 to 4 million a time transport missions within 30 ly's of the system I'm operating out of, they are about a 10 minute turnaround.

(deadly combat rank and allied station for access to best tourist missions)

Meanwhile, the only missions I see with payouts that are even close to worth my while are multi-hour, tens of thousands of lightyears runs to Jacques and Colonia and so forth. And this is with Allied status.

FD, I'm not going to sink that many hours into mind-numbing j-tap-j-tap-j-tap "gameplay", and it's quite frankly, insulting to expect so.

I'd like to once again thank the IMMERSHUN whiners for making what was my favorite game unplayable.

The missions thing was by word of god a mistake - how long does it take to change a multiplier server side?!
 
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I bunged a passenger thing into my d-rated exploration asp and I can breeze 30 million an hour by selecting short range tourist tours, 15 million (ish) payout for about 20-25 jumps total with 2 or 3 stops along the way.

When they don't show up there's 2 to 4 million a time transport missions within 30 ly's of the system I'm operating out of, they are about a 10 minute turnaround.

(deadly combat rank and allied station for access to best tourist missions)

what kind of economy and state is your base system?
 
You realize that Sothis was at a similar level of earning potential, prior to the 2.2 nerf?

Quite a world of difference.

1) You say 8 million/hour? I say closer to 20 in a Python, especially with a boosted FSD meaning less jumps there and back.

2) No mode switching to stack missions, no stacking. The higher paying passenger missions are for the higher class passengers who don't share cabins. You are limited in how much you can stack, and it doesn't make much sense to stack the higher ranked ones anyway. You'll end up flying all over the place. I've heard it can be worth stacking lower level missions to the same destinations, but presumably that involves the old mode swtiching business, which isn't really much fun.

3) Different levels of risk. Most of the time, Sothis runs are pretty low risk. Even the ones where you had pirates pop up, they were easy to deal with, especially in a Python. Passengers can be (if you are not careful in who you choose to take) riskier.

4) This is the main point, FD have stated the rewards for the trading missions are wrong. So you might be best waiting to see how those numbers are when FD fix it before trying to compare.
 
Also, Sothis, Robigo and all these "make money fast" things make absolutely zero sense in the universe of Elite. It's a flaw in the game's code, which isn't fixed yet, but at least they made it so people will no longer make their gameplay around those flaws.

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Meanwhile, the only missions I see with payouts that are even close to worth my while are multi-hour, tens of thousands of lightyears runs to Jacques and Colonia and so forth. And this is with Allied status.

FD, I'm not going to sink that many hours into mind-numbing j-tap-j-tap-j-tap "gameplay", and it's quite frankly, insulting to expect so.

I'd like to once again thank the IMMERSHUN whiners for making what was my favorite game unplayable.

The missions thing was by word of god a mistake - how long does it take to change a multiplier server side?!

What on the bloody Earth does this have to do with immersion.
 
Every patch they nerf the prior money bonanza paradigm and replace it with another money bonanza paradigm.

Looking forward to 2.3's co-op mission money bananza paradigm.
 
As a sidenote, I love that pirates will make attempts to steal your biowaste.

However, passenger missions leave you with the risk of being insta-gibbed as you leave the station, providing you pick up someone who's wanted.

Initiate an undocking procedure, don't leave the station, log out and back in.
Be spawned 20km away fom the station, be on your way.
 
Doing passenger missions requires an investment of a lot of credits so they better not nerf it. The best ships to do it in requires millions and some cabins are expensive.

Well to put things into perspective for you. To make 60-80 mil/hr on Sithos/Ceos runs, you need a Cutter. And a well engineered one at that. Price an A spec'd Cutter, add in the time to rank up for it, get the engineers unlocked, the materials they require, and that fancy cruse liner is CHEEP!

I really enjoy playing ED, but this update and nurf has left me wondering. I don't understand why FD has such a problem with player advancing rapidly. I really feel sorry for the players with limited game time. They must be either very frustrated or very patient.

LLaP

S1E
 
what kind of economy and state is your base system?

High tech/extraction currently in a boom. I came here just for outfitting and stayed for the tourism missions.

I've just accepted a mission for 8.9 million (15 million for 3 stops seems normal) for a two stop tourist hop 1st stop 73 ly (3 jumps) second stop 130 ly (8 jumps) about 10 jumps back to finish at homebase. I'll be finished with it in about 15-20 minutes (unless I take a break) 27 ly jumprange asp with a very expensive fuel scoop so I'm always topped up just by skimming (and the galaxy map is set for scoopable stars only routes).
 
Wasn't arround at the Sothis / Ceos time, but when i read 8/mil per hour and python in one sentence i can see why they did something about it. But then again i can only compare that mostly to what a T9 / Conda earned arround before Horizons (which would be at the very best the same) and all the changes afterwards. Maybe someones cares to chime in an about number of those two ships arround those time (numbers with usual trade/missions that is). Just for my personal interest if someone would be kind enough.

I started playing in Jan. 2014 and my progression looked something like this. The numbers for the smaller ships have increased substantially but for me it was a gradual progression right up until the 2.2 nerf hit.

Sidewinder - Bulletin Board missions at 25k/hr, Rebuy 10k
Viper - Bounty Hunting at 100 k/hr, Rebuy 50k
Type 6 - Bulk Trading at 500k/hr, Rebuy 150k
Asp - Trading Rares at 1 mil/hr, Rebuy 600k
Vulture - Bounty Hunting at 2 mil/hr, Rebuy 1 mil
FAS - Bounty Hunting at 4 mil/hr, Rebuy 4.5 mil
Type 9 - Bulk Trading at 6 mil/hr, Rebuy 5 mil plus 5 mil cargo loss
Python - Sothis Runs at 8 mil/hr, Rebuy 7.5 mil
Anaconda - Sothis Runs at 12 mil/hr, Rebuy 20 mil

In general I experienced a very proportional progression of ship income, ship costs and reuby so the risk/reward was always balanced. Prior to the 2.2 nerf you could make more money in smaller ships than my progression above so the income earning potential would have been much faster for someone starting with Horizons rather than when the game first launched. For example, a Sothis run in an Asp with 64 tons of cargo would make you around 2-3 mil/hr, which was about twice as lucrative as I could make running rares in my Asp, so Sothis also served a purpose to help newer players "catch up" to the experienced players with a faster income progression, which I thought was a nice balance for players who were just getting started in the game.

There were some issues where players could make dramatically more than the above progression, but those were only with very specific activities that were not obvious unless you spent time on the forums and learned about them. The biggest issue was with Robigo smuggling missions where players would mode switch and stack them with minimal risk and make upwards of 20-25 mil/hr an hour in an Asp. I don't do smuggling and wasn't on the forums in the first year so I by the time I learned about Robigo it was alraday heavily nerfed, but I wasn't interested in smuggling anyways so probably wouldn't have bothered with it despite the earning potential.

My total assets after 1200 hours of gameplay are around 1.5 billion, with around 1.2 billion in ships and 300 million of cash. If you look at where I earned it, around 200 million was from RES bounty hunting, 200 million from bulk trading, 100 million from exploration/missions/CGs and around 1 billion from Sothis runs. If you look at my Python and Anaconda, however, they cost me a total of around 550 million to purchase and equip (150 mil for the Python and 400 mil for the Anaconda), plus many hours for the Engineering mods to make them competitive in combat against Elite NPCs. This represents over half of my Sothis profits so I had to reinvest a large proportion of my Sothis earnings back into ships that I was using to do the Sothis runs, which again was quite proportional to their earning potential.

The issue here is that the risk/reward balance of earning 8 mil/hr in a Python is actually very proportional to the ship and rebuy cost and is actually quite balanced. For the ship progression I listed above there was always the approximate balance where bounty hunting or trading was doing activities that would take me around 1-2 hours to cover my reuby. This was also true of Sothis runs in my Python or Anaconda. You were making more money, but the risks of losing your ship were proportionally higher. In fact the risks overall have increased given the issues with NPCs and Engineering mods, to the point that it is no longer worthwhile to try using the dedicated traders like the T6 and T9 to make those level of bulk trading profits given the higher interdiction risks and buggy interdiction problems.

Apparently FD doesn't play their own game, because to nerf all the activities in the game so heavily but to keep passenger missions at an equivalent level that we saw for incomes prior to 2.2 is basically telling me not to play the game, because all I do in the process is risk losing money instead of earning it. If the game activities were interesting enough on their own that might still give me some motivation to play, but there's nothing particularly challenging or interesting about following cops around in a RES to farm bounties or pressing jump 20 times. At this point I have over 1 billion worth of credits invested into a range of fully-equipped and Engineered ships but with 2.2 there is really nothing worthwhile for me to do with them.
 
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Thank you kindly for listing this all up, Devari. And yes, this pretty much sums it up to me (okay, never dabbled that much in BH, so i can only remotely compare), bit the last two entries is where it totally runs off.
Type 9 at 6? Check, also what was according to my knowledge. But 6 - 8? That was Conda money per hour before some of the changes arround Horizon up to know. Python for example was at the very best half of a Conda, simply due to its "limited" cargo space compared to the big guys. 12 Million and more was Cutter, last time i did fly it (which was with the missions change which was nice, but somehow totally forgot that there are also large ships in the game). My numbers are related to good ol' bulk trading. So yea, maybe things has changed, but at least it explains why i am confused that a python is even remotely able to earn 8 mil per hour ^_^
 
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Quite a world of difference.

1) You say 8 million/hour? I say closer to 20 in a Python, especially with a boosted FSD meaning less jumps there and back.

First, that is nonsense, you can't make 20 mil/hr doing Sothis runs in a Python.

Second, it isn't worthwhile wasting jump boosts on a Sothis run because of the time it takes to farm the mats for those jumps. A typical Sothis run with a fully Engineered Python is around a 16-20 jumps one-way to cover 400 ly distance backt to the bubble. You might cut that down to 12-15 with the 50% jump boost and save 15 minutes but need to spend upwards of an hour farming all of those mats again, plus it wouldn't cut down your travel times anywhere near as effectively on the return trip where you have to stop at 4-6 stations to drop off the deliveries anyways and the jump distance itself is not the only time factor.

2) No mode switching to stack missions, no stacking. The higher paying passenger missions are for the higher class passengers who don't share cabins. You are limited in how much you can stack, and it doesn't make much sense to stack the higher ranked ones anyway. You'll end up flying all over the place. I've heard it can be worth stacking lower level missions to the same destinations, but presumably that involves the old mode swtiching business, which isn't really much fun.

There were similar decisions to make with a Sothis run, which also required some decision about how to optimize you run, i.e., taking multiple smaller missions which paid more per ton but required more stops or fewer larger deliveries that payed less but were faster. The point here is that the 8 mil/hr average in my Python was very similar to what you reported for your run, and a Python costs are very similar to a Beluga so the ship investment costs here are very comparable.

3) Different levels of risk. Most of the time, Sothis runs are pretty low risk. Even the ones where you had pirates pop up, they were easy to deal with, especially in a Python. Passengers can be (if you are not careful in who you choose to take) riskier.

Sure, if you take on a wanted passenger, but you are choosing to take on that risk. That's no better or worse than managing your risk for Sothis runs really, especially given that you also had to deal with the occasional station camping, etc., that we would see at Sothis while there is no central area for passenger missions that players will try to engage you in PVP at. In fact the last few Sothis runs I made prior to 2.2 I ran into other CMDRs who were trying to attack players with a stealth missile build, a torpedo-running courier and so on. I was interdicted by other players twice and I was quite aware of the increased risk I was taking by being at Sothis, much like what we see with most CGs.

4) This is the main point, FD have stated the rewards for the trading missions are wrong. So you might be best waiting to see how those numbers are when FD fix it before trying to compare.

Where have they said this? Considering they had 3 weeks of beta to figure this out I find it highly unlikely that they "accidentally" nerfed all the other missions by a factor of 10 and yet somehow set passenger missions at a lucrative level. That wasn't something that they did "accidentally", they had to have made those changes on purpose.
 
Also the mission updates are nice, espacially the alternate destination ones. You can actually say Yes or no to them! Is that now the case for regualr missions too?

And the ones where the alternate destination request comes from a guy interested in your Cargo... ehm, passangers are paying really well. Had a tourist transport for 1.5 mil, the alternate offer was 4.5 mil. But I'm a good captain, I'm not doing that! Never... maybe... hmm...
 
.....
At this point I have over 1 billion worth of credits invested into a range of fully-equipped and Engineered ships but with 2.2. there is really nothing worthwhile for me to do with them.

Not to diminishes from the rest of your post, it was spot on IMO.

However you nailed it with this part. The Commander I'm flying right now has 700mil in ships, and 1.5bil on outfitting. And now I can do missions for 300K, or fly annoying jerks around.

LLaP

S1E
 
I'm kinda confused, how would you fit a long range transporter Anaconda to reach 20m cr rebuy?

It's actually fairly reasonable for a combat-capable Anaconda with a multirole build that can defend itself. A typical full combat build for an Anaconda can run upwards of 500 mil or 25 mil rebuy. I got mine down to 400 mil or 20 mil rebuy by going with an undersized PP (class 7A instead of 8A) and going with multicannons for my main weapons instead of the expensive beam turrets (which cost 20 mil for a turreted large beam). My Anaconda is heavily Engineered so I can handle other Elite NPCs easily and the cargo capacity when I was doing Sothis runs was 352 tons. Now that I've installed a class 6 fighter bay the cargo is only 288 tons, but since Sothis is nerfed I don't have much need for cargo at the moment.

You could certainly run a cheaper Anaconda, but then you're left with C/D rated modules and it's not really worth putting all the time into Engineering mods unless you're starting with A-rated modules. So 400 mil was the cheapest I could build my Anaconda given that I was keeping it combat capable to deal with interdictions which were VERY frequent shortly after 2.1 launched and weren't reduced again until they lobotomized the NPCs back to around their pre-2.1 levels with the 2.1.05 patch.
 
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Thank you kindly for listing this all up, Devari. And yes, this pretty much sums it up to me (okay, never dabbled that much in BH, so i can only remotely compare), bit the last two entries is where it totally runs off.
Type 9 at 6? Check, also what was according to my knowledge. But 6 - 8? That was Conda money per hour before some of the changes arround Horizon up to know. Python for example was at the very best half of a Conda, simply due to its "limited" cargo space compared to the big guys. 12 Million and more was Cutter, last time i did fly it (which was with the missions change which was nice, but somehow totally forgot that there are also large ships in the game). My numbers are related to good ol' bulk trading. So yea, maybe things has changed, but at least it explains why i am confused that a python is even remotely able to earn 8 mil per hour ^_^

If you're doing bulk trading, then 6-8 mil in an Anaconda makes sense in a maxed-out cargo build as it can carry nearly as much as a Type 9 but the turnaround time at stations in faster which makes it a better trader overall. Similar to bulk trading in a Cutter which can do 12 mil/hr due to having 50% more cargo than a Type 9 and being very fast which allows it to boost away from stations quickly and get outside of masslock range much faster than a Type 9.

The Sothis run profits only really start to take off once you are allied with more than one faction. When I first started doing Sothis runs in my Python I wasn't quite making 8 mil/hr because I was only allied with Sirius and if you aren't allied then often the more lucrative long-range hauling missions aren't available. Even now I am still not fully allied with all the factions, there is one that I am only friendly with because they don't give out many long-haul missions, but I had seen the profits increase somewhat as I increased my local rep trading in my Anaconda. On a good run I could probably push 15 mil/hr in my Anaconda (mostly due to a lower turnaround time waiting for missions) but that was under ideal conditions with almost all the factions allied, on average it was much closer to 12 mil/hr. Same with my Python, on a good run with allied factions I might push 10 mil/hr, but the average was around 8 mil. There's also the issue that when Sothis would enter War state then the long-haul missions would dry up almost completely for several days, which took Sothis offline effectively during that time. You might still make some money from Ceos but it would take much longer to wait for mission boards to refresh. I wouldn't mode switch because I play entirely in Open but players who were willing to do rapid mode-switching could circumvent this somewhat, but even then you're still looking at minimum 2-2.5 hours for a Sothis run just from travel time to/from the bubble and stopping for deliveries so mode switching wouldn't make a large difference anyways.
 
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I think what a lot of people love to overlook about the ceos/sothis "legitimate poop runs" is that leaving the game 15 times at a station is obviously not intended gameplay.

Neither is flying a defenceless trade ship and logging out at the first sign of danger yet many people here do it and worse still consider it viable. If it's in the game its legitimate, exploiting missions to get free slaves to sell back that's an exploit. Now mode switching for missions isn't that different to mode switching to avoid PvP or reinstating a res, its a work around to suit your desired gameplay style. If only we didn't need to have this work around then we wouldn't be having this discussion. To be honest their needs to be a mission filter so players don't have to mode switch to find the the missions they want.
 
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