TBH I feel the opposite, that Elite is very good at giving you nearly all it has to offer right away. You can experience 95% of what the game has to offer in a Cobra, which is a very achievable ship to aspire to.
Horizons An Open Letter Regarding New Players, and The Future
- Thread starter MrFailfactory
- Start date
TBH I feel the opposite, that Elite is very good at giving you nearly all it has to offer right away. You can experience 95% of what the game has to offer in a Cobra, which is a very achievable ship to aspire to.
I'm totally new (about 10 days or so) and have amassed around 14m through bounty hunting (well, hiding behind the police like a little girl and taking the odd shot) and so far enjoying the experience.
My main concern is the lack of opportunities to take part in the combat community goals. I was told constantly that as a new player taking part in community goals would give you a good financial start towards making your way in the game, and there are several types, from trading to combat. Since I wanted to have some combat fun and make a few credits in the process (combat seems more fun that trading) I decided, along with several of my friends who had also joined the game to go to Maia to take part in the event.
Over 25 deaths later between us (or more like insta-death slaughter) and we all decided to leave the system (a few decided to uninstall the game due to frustration) and all had a very bad taste in our mouths with regards to the 'Community goals' which we found was pointless unless you had a top end ship with enhancements.
So, combat community goals are 'only for the top elite players with amazing top end ships and new players need not apply or even attempt to take part, you are not wanted' ? Great advert for any new players wanting to join in with the community after the Horizons advertisements...
I really think to keep new players there should be more events that they can ACTUALLY take part in, other than trading...
Just was a tad galling to hear these super rich players with top ships bragging about making millions in the Mara combat event when the new players could have done with earning a few credits and feeling like part of the games community. Big opportunity lost with the Horizons launch.
My main concern is the lack of opportunities to take part in the combat community goals. I was told constantly that as a new player taking part in community goals would give you a good financial start towards making your way in the game, and there are several types, from trading to combat. Since I wanted to have some combat fun and make a few credits in the process (combat seems more fun that trading) I decided, along with several of my friends who had also joined the game to go to Maia to take part in the event.
Over 25 deaths later between us (or more like insta-death slaughter) and we all decided to leave the system (a few decided to uninstall the game due to frustration) and all had a very bad taste in our mouths with regards to the 'Community goals' which we found was pointless unless you had a top end ship with enhancements.
So, combat community goals are 'only for the top elite players with amazing top end ships and new players need not apply or even attempt to take part, you are not wanted' ? Great advert for any new players wanting to join in with the community after the Horizons advertisements...
I really think to keep new players there should be more events that they can ACTUALLY take part in, other than trading...
Just was a tad galling to hear these super rich players with top ships bragging about making millions in the Mara combat event when the new players could have done with earning a few credits and feeling like part of the games community. Big opportunity lost with the Horizons launch.
Indeed the game has a different experience for all that play, i to started a beta backer, and can remember the first time seeing the asteroid belts, and wanting to planet land etc,however ever over time players can fall into many different traits of play, there are the power credit players among us, the laid back take my timers,the realistic players, and those who have a go how and then or have a couple of hours free to play players. As for myself I like to do a bit of everything I have collected a range of ships from conda for trading, asp for small taxi runs and exploring, a fed assault ship for my bounty hunting and a couple of others for general bits and peace's, and more recently an orca for passenger missions, so for me i can bounce from one trait to another, however when all said and done, there is more that we all want to see we all have high expectations of the game and yes it has its flaws and issues as well, but time will tell and with the ever moving forward and these forums we can only do our bit to keep pushing the devs to improve where it needs improving.
I don't disagree, but you have misconstrued the original posting. My point was the NUMBER of guides in existence, not the fact that they are there. Many new players NEED that assistance, and that indicates that the starting learning curve is overly steep.
The fact that you have also quoted this out of context because you left out the rest of the post is... disingenuous. It indicates that you are trying to twist my original intention to your position when you know that doing so changes the meaning of my posting.
I started playing just as Engineers released.
Me in my stock Sidewinder, pootling along with a few tons of mission cargo for a couple of thousand credits, against an unending horde of flawlessly interdicting, pumped-up NPC pirates.
I hugely enjoyed the game as a new player, because the scale of my expectation was relative to that of a new player. I had access to Sidewinders and Haulers, which to me were a fighter and a trader that covered all the missions I was confident of. Travelling more than 50Ly was a pretty big deal - it would only happen with a really good reason & take aaaaages. My ship aspiration wasn't an Anaconda, because why would it be at that price? It was a Cobra III, because that was a realistic goal to set myself. I saved up and got that Cobra. Took ages. Started travelling further, doing more, earning more, realising how big the game actually got. Set my self a new goal of jumping across the bubble completing CGs. Was genuinely amazed at how far I was travelling to complete them and the huge amount of credits I was earning from them (like, over 500,000 credits a week!). By this point I was consuming everything I could about the game, Started doing the rares trading circuit - mind blown by both money and scale of travelling involved. Started wondering about exploring but laughed it off as a pipe dream. Went to Maia & back for an Engineer - longest journey I'd made. Bought a Keelback because no one seemed to like them despite it doing all the things I wanted it to do. Engineered it. Earned huge amounts of money doing smuggling runs (over 20 million credits a week!) before deciding that maybe I would have a go at exploring. Spent a couple of months in the black, nearly dying on several occasions but seeing some amazing things.
Back in May, as a new player, I didn't see the mountain ahead. I just saw the next outpost along the way. Now I'm floating on a tiny outpost with my Keelback, an truly astounding 22KLy from home, planning my next adventure.
If some new players don't want to climb, that's fine too.
Me in my stock Sidewinder, pootling along with a few tons of mission cargo for a couple of thousand credits, against an unending horde of flawlessly interdicting, pumped-up NPC pirates.
I hugely enjoyed the game as a new player, because the scale of my expectation was relative to that of a new player. I had access to Sidewinders and Haulers, which to me were a fighter and a trader that covered all the missions I was confident of. Travelling more than 50Ly was a pretty big deal - it would only happen with a really good reason & take aaaaages. My ship aspiration wasn't an Anaconda, because why would it be at that price? It was a Cobra III, because that was a realistic goal to set myself. I saved up and got that Cobra. Took ages. Started travelling further, doing more, earning more, realising how big the game actually got. Set my self a new goal of jumping across the bubble completing CGs. Was genuinely amazed at how far I was travelling to complete them and the huge amount of credits I was earning from them (like, over 500,000 credits a week!). By this point I was consuming everything I could about the game, Started doing the rares trading circuit - mind blown by both money and scale of travelling involved. Started wondering about exploring but laughed it off as a pipe dream. Went to Maia & back for an Engineer - longest journey I'd made. Bought a Keelback because no one seemed to like them despite it doing all the things I wanted it to do. Engineered it. Earned huge amounts of money doing smuggling runs (over 20 million credits a week!) before deciding that maybe I would have a go at exploring. Spent a couple of months in the black, nearly dying on several occasions but seeing some amazing things.
Back in May, as a new player, I didn't see the mountain ahead. I just saw the next outpost along the way. Now I'm floating on a tiny outpost with my Keelback, an truly astounding 22KLy from home, planning my next adventure.
If some new players don't want to climb, that's fine too.
So the OP proposed a new mission to give beginners 15m cr/hr by having them do the most boring trade run in the entire galaxy. If you want to do that, just add a 'mucho money' button to the interface somewhere. And what you get with that is:
This post is EXACTLY what is wrong with the insane payouts of ED. Someone playing a month, having a quarter of a billion yet cant figure out the basics of combat so requests the complete removal of the only consequence this game has.
This post is EXACTLY what is wrong with the insane payouts of ED. Someone playing a month, having a quarter of a billion yet cant figure out the basics of combat so requests the complete removal of the only consequence this game has.
I said a number of things.
I'm also not speaking about the current state of the game - I'm talking about the future, and I believe this will become a very relevant issue within the next 6 months.
Let's take a look at what is likely to be an *average* timeline; not yours, not mine, but for an average new player. By the way, the average player isn't likely to get up to a Hauler or Adder (or even a Cobra), and just head out into the black, not caring about any of the events or happenings in the game. It can be done, sure, but that isn't the path that most people who try this game are likely to follow.
20-30 days to reach 2M credits, which is enough to purchase and decently kit out a lower-tiered ship. Definition being able to participate in CG's in a way that feels rewarding. Finishing in the bottom 25% despite all of your efforts doesn't feel rewarding, and isn't particularly lucrative, either.
2-3 months of fairly steady progress to reach a point where they can begin to gain income at a reasonable level, and perhaps be competitive in whatever they like to do in the game. Some people don't really care about this, but most...do. At the very least, most people want to feel like their progress per time spent is *worth it.*
Right now, this isn't really an issue, but let's imagine someone starting the game with 2.4 (likely 6-8 months from now).
Ancient ruins have been discovered. Perhaps alien contact has been made. Perhaps a war has started, even. We don't know exactly, but the point is that these arcs are likely to grow with each update.
Take a look at the above timeline again - a new player hears about these things, perhaps even purchased the game because of them, and then finds out that they really can't do any of it for...an undetermined amount of time, but as it stands right now, that could be 2-3 months. I've seen comments like *not needing expensive, top-tiered ships* to do anything and everything in the game, and while that is true, those statements are pretty myopic. If most people really didn't care about that kind of progression, we would have one ship, with different skins. At most, we would have an explorer, a trader, and a combat ship. Put another way, I could go visit the ruins fairly early in the game in a Sidewinder/Hauler, certainly, but that would be like riding a bicycle, when motorcycles are available.
As I stated earlier, other games have made the right choice in streamlining the early parts of the game, and sooner or later, FD is going to have to examine this issue.
Also, as stated earlier: I love the game just the way it is. I like the time investment required to reach various goals because that is rewarding to me. I don't want the average player to have a kitted Cutter in less than a month. I don't want to ever be able to cross the galaxy in a day, or even a week, for that matter. I like the consequences that the game offers for mistakes, not paying attention, or being an outright idiot. I have no need of anything I'm proposing here.
The thing is, I'm not making this thread for me - really, I'm making it for all of us. More people buying and playing the game (and not the gimme nao type of player), means that FD has more money to bring new content, and perhaps bring that content faster.
This is a win for everyone.
Riôt
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They have - it's called Munch-Bunny Entanglement.
Well, as I have said before (this topic is getting old now...) Sothis for example was NOT an exploit, and it didn't need "nerfing". Who is to say players are progressing "too quickly"? I'm not enjoying ED any less for what some would perceive as fast progress.
I also know there is no "end game" in ED, and I'm very cool with that. In fact, to me, ED is a breath of fresh air in that it is a largely open-world experience, where you can play it how you like. Many other games are 3D versions of scrolling-world games where you HAVE to go where the devs pre-scripted it. One game I played for about 2 minutes was so bad, the in-game characters basically told which keys to press, when. I have never been so bored in my life!
I think the biggest thing where FD screwed up this time is that the player base was mostly happy, but FD apparently didn't like it, and changed the rules of the game. If they can put missions, and mission rewards back as they were in 2.1, it will mostly fix the problems.
Before 2.2 released, people discussed how to do things. Since 2.2 released, people are only discussing the problems with 2.2. That is a MASSIVE problem and needs fixing urgently, IMHO.
Again you are spot on mate if i could rep u again i would. As i have said before i played this game for a long time. I left because after all the effort i put in i just felt this is pointless as my goal was to get my corvette. At that point in time i was flying a python with 10 mil in the bank approx 360 hrs worth of play. Now i found out about sothis 1 week before the nerf. I went down there which was a mission and a half, i am a combat pilot all i ever did i was never interested in being a hauler driver. After getting into it and giving it a go i realized that hey i can go hard 8hr days for a week and actually get somewhere. I now have my conda 400 odd mil in the bank.
My drive to play the game and the fun i am having finally being able to actually go and set a ship up for mining, exploration ect without money worry is awesome. I have now experienced 100 times more that the game has to offer because of sothis, this is what FD have taken from all of us. No-one has to stay there and earn billions my goal was to get comfortable and have a ship there in case i had a bad run and needed to top up my cash. This is why i felt the need to finally speak up on the forums and say hey this is not right. Anyone who thinks this isn't killing the game is deluding themselves. I love elite always have i started playing in 84 on my com 128, i grew up with this game and my love for it will never die even if the game does. FD and people always say this is the game play it how u like, well after 2.2 it's more like this is our game and here is how u WILL play it. Is this really a direction that will grow the game and bring in new people?
I disagree, there are some valid points there. I am all for the journey rather than the destination but having been off the game for a fair amount of time and recently returning, I can clearly see the changes that have taken place and they are quite drastic! ED appears to be sidestepping are rather large group of people, be it to please those who (by multiple means) rise so high to the top so quickly, they then moan about how boring it is being god. I don't personally mind the grind, but do think having to spend my entire life getting remotely close to a high level is going to test my resolve in sticking with the game,so can see a big put off to many new players.
Don't get me wrong, i love Elite but think that ED Devs had some kind of panic and rushed the difficulty level far too quickly. I am now trapped in an above average rank based on a bygone game version and feel a bit ticked off that i can't do anything other than close my account. I also think that the ED community takes a rather coarse, remorseless view on other non-elite players...especially on this forum which is a shame. but hey ho, what do I know lol.
Don't get me wrong, i love Elite but think that ED Devs had some kind of panic and rushed the difficulty level far too quickly. I am now trapped in an above average rank based on a bygone game version and feel a bit ticked off that i can't do anything other than close my account. I also think that the ED community takes a rather coarse, remorseless view on other non-elite players...especially on this forum which is a shame. but hey ho, what do I know lol.
I usually Bounty Hunt and Rebuy isn't a huge issue. It's the general combat difficulty and knowing how to actually dogfight. The tutorials pretty much just show you the controls, but not maneuvers or power management or targeting systems. The learning curve is pretty steep and after 50hrs, I still haven't figured it all out, tbh. I've watched a few videos but they haven't helped much.
If they really want to make the learning curve softer for beginners, they could make better tutorial missions. Reality is that the game doesn't teach you nearly enough to do anything beyond bare basic gameplay.
I did trade for a year then FD ballsed up the trade payouts so I did what I could and didn't get anywhere, until last night when I tried my 1st passenger mission, 2 hrs later I WAS 3 MILL UP LOVE IT NOW.
Combat difficulty? Roll to center and pitch up, target powerplant, make 2 pip management setups: 2 engine 4 wep, 4 engine 2 shield, when shooting use the weapons heavy, when not use the engine one. This is literally all you need vs npcs. Sometimes slow down if you are way faster and more maneuverable than the other ship xD
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Personally I found Elite easier to learn to play than the Paradox games like EU4, it's just since 2.2 it doesn't look like delivery missions are ever going to pay more than a few hundred credits reward. It says something when it takes as long to fly the ship you want in Elite as it does in Eve Online, a game where it can take months of real time skill training to fly what you want however it seems like rather than add new content to Elite the developers just made it hard to access the current content.
Also anyone who says 'It's about the journey not making credits' and who isn't flying the same Sidewinder they started the game with and has upgraded there ship is a hypocrite.
Also anyone who says 'It's about the journey not making credits' and who isn't flying the same Sidewinder they started the game with and has upgraded there ship is a hypocrite.
I was playing back in the 80's as well on a Commodore 64. All you youngsters can look that one up. I like the progression the game has taken. I admit I have not had to start fresh since the payout changes for missions (2.2). I would think you can still work you way up in a reasonable amount of time doing missions from a "home" station and working your credibility up with the factions. That doesn't take long, although it is a bit of a grind. What should anyone expect? However, nothing is stopping anyone from earning just enough to get a fuel scoop for their sidewinder and heading for the core if that is what they want to do or owning an Anaconda in just a few weeks/months depending on how much you play.
It is nice to be an old fart, purpose built a system just for Elite and have/make time to play. I will admit a dislike for having to have really good weapons and shields (therefore power generator, distributor, etc.) that cost more than the ship itself just to keep my hard earned cargo or just my rebuy from the pirates or griefers. Still, I really do spend just a bit too much time playing. Love this game
There are fans of every ship, and I think members of the Sidewinder Appreciation Society would take issue with your comparison, or indeed the idea that bicycles are somehow inferior to motorcycles.
Maybe it’s people like you who are giving new players the impression that the Sidewinder and other starting ships are somehow inadequate or "not" good enough that has created the problem, not anything Frontier has done. When I first started playing, all I wanted was an Asp, because I had heard the Asp was the ship for exploring, and exploring was my goal. I itched and yearned for that Asp. It seemed to take forever. Meanwhile, people were telling me that the Asp didn't matter and I should just enjoy other aspects of the game—and they were right. I had so much fun mining and trading and bounty hunting, and yes, even exploring, in my Cobra for a while. (I did eventually get my Asp, and it was sweet. But that doesn't stop me from jumping into other ships when I so desire.)
I'm not suggesting that a Sidewinder is somehow a "purer" experience than more expensive ships, nor that players should never aspire to own more expensive ships. I do object to the notion that having a more expensive ship is a progression. The goal of this game has never been to "own all the ships". We make our own goals. If "own all the ships" is a player's goal, then that is of course valid. But we shouldn't be surprised if that's the goal of new players if we are sending this message that the less expensive ships are somehow worse.
And for what it's worth, I agree that Frontier could improve the tutorial aspects of the game and give players more guidance at the start—but that's different from somehow altering the mechanics of the game to make it easier to make money at first.
That absolutely doesn't work anymore. At least not with heavy fighters. I started a thread on it but to summarize, you really need to know how to dogfight in 2.2 or you'll get slaughtered. Even before, you needed to know a few tricks to make money at Bounty Hunting, especially with high value targets like Anacondas and Clippers. You have to know the blindspots and how to angle the ship properly. Turrets make things more complicated too since the blindspots are smaller with them.
You really suggest that new players should do Hutton orbital runs for a month? That is not gameplay, thats't just you staring your screen for hours doing exactly nothing, or simply being afk / browsing the net. If i should do that i'd quit on my first day.
On the other hand take a look at the Cobra mkIII for example. It's cheap, thus can be aquire even by a new player relatively fast. It's a nice multipurpose ship. You can do almost anything with it. Trade rare goods, do smuggling missions, some light pew pew, explore around the galaxy. Hell the guy who got the first discovery on Sagittarius A* did it in a cobra too. If bulk trading or mining is your thing, the T-6 can be reached easily too to start with.
If someone cant find anything in the game in the first few weeks that he or she likes to do, it's not becouse of the ship he/she sits in, but maybe becouse the game lacks the content he/she needs.
Well, I'm another new player. Close to 2 month old in ED. I'm also a casual player, meaning I usually play 2-3 hours per evening, and not every day.
Since I got to play a little before 2.2, I had about 2 weeks of financial boom, so now I have a couple of well equipped ships, that allow me to do anything I want. BUT, if I wouldn't have had the opportunity of makin' so much money before the update, considering my play time, I would've probably be still struggling to outfit my ASPX right now. I would be in a loop of spending a couple of hours each night, doing the exact same thing, and if I would aim for an Anaconda, I'd probably set that goal for a year from now. This would definitely not be fun.
So...I think having a way to make good money within a reasonable time frame is a necessity, as long as a reasonably outfitted Anaconda costs about 500 mill. The game doesn't provide such a possibility as it is.
Since I got to play a little before 2.2, I had about 2 weeks of financial boom, so now I have a couple of well equipped ships, that allow me to do anything I want. BUT, if I wouldn't have had the opportunity of makin' so much money before the update, considering my play time, I would've probably be still struggling to outfit my ASPX right now. I would be in a loop of spending a couple of hours each night, doing the exact same thing, and if I would aim for an Anaconda, I'd probably set that goal for a year from now. This would definitely not be fun.
So...I think having a way to make good money within a reasonable time frame is a necessity, as long as a reasonably outfitted Anaconda costs about 500 mill. The game doesn't provide such a possibility as it is.
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I just started over myself, to re-experience the beginning stages, and to make a new video series about it.
I think the starting experience has actually improved since my first time (back in 2.0). Even with all the borked mission payouts, I had no problems finding stuff to do.
Episode 6 is going live later today, and by the end of that I have quite a few millions in the bank and a nicely kitted out Cobra, ready to be engineered.
Sure a brand new player is going to take longer (unless they watch my videos, haha), but not that much longer. It certainly won't be months.
Shameless plug: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/303947-New-Video-Series-Starting-from-Scratch
I think the starting experience has actually improved since my first time (back in 2.0). Even with all the borked mission payouts, I had no problems finding stuff to do.
Episode 6 is going live later today, and by the end of that I have quite a few millions in the bank and a nicely kitted out Cobra, ready to be engineered.
Sure a brand new player is going to take longer (unless they watch my videos, haha), but not that much longer. It certainly won't be months.
Shameless plug: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/303947-New-Video-Series-Starting-from-Scratch
Indeed, it is not an elegant solution. It is, admittedly, one that would be convenient to implement, has a built-in timesink, and would function as an adequate Band-Aid. Hardly the best way to go about it, though.
I like this, and if I had the time, I would have considered doing the same thing. It is very difficult, however, to calculate the difference in time that your knowledge, experience, and confidence provide, that a new player simply doesn't have - even if they do lots of research. I find that a lot of the guides and video tutorials lack some information that I consider basic, such as...where they are, which asteroid field they are in, etc. In my opinion, it is indeed, that much longer.
This is an example of what I'm talking about - not everyone's experience is the same, and not everyone has the same amount of time to invest, but looking at a player, with an average amount of available time, I just feel like the initial ramp needs to be shortened as more content becomes available.
Not the ramp to top-tiered ships, but making sure the average player can earn enough (with some mistakes) to have a solid T6, Cobra, or DBX within a month. These are the entry-level ships in their respective fields, with the Cobra being able to do all things at a respectable level.
At that point, the rest of the game really opens, and they will have a ship capable of making progress that feels good, generate a decent income, go see the wonders of the galaxy...whatever they want to do.
I also think some people are stuck in the now - I'm not talking about now.
I'm talking about 6-8 months from now, when we might have a fair amount more content than what we provide for ourselves. The entire reason behind this post is to make changes so that average new players are not put-off by the initial ramp. They stay, they play, they buy stuff in the store, maybe recruit some of their friends - FD has more money for development.
In the interest of fairness: maybe I'm wrong, and the new content won't be that deep. Maybe there won't be much to do, no on-going arcs. Maybe it will just end up being a museum in space, with exhibits at various locations, and some flashing lights. In that case, there would be no need to change the initial ramp at all.
Riôt