An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Stigbob]

Stay in solo if your internet is garbage. Your fault not ours, if you cant meet the internet requirements then i shouldnt have to suffer from it when i play the game because you decided you dont care.

No thanks, I'll carry on using whichever mode I like.

I will personally report you as many time as possible if you combat log on me. I really could care less about your excuses... for all i know it could be all lies.

I've never combat logged. I'll personally report you for accusing me of cheating as often as you do it. I don't care about your excuses.

On a more serious note, i understand where you are coming from but it's no excuse to justify a conveniant combat log when i interdict you and then blame it on your bad internet.

I don't combat log, you can't tell a fault from a combat log, FD support know what my connections like.....so good-luck with that one.

Nope im sorry that just doesn't fly. You don't get a special treatment because you can't afford a decent line. Everybody must abide by the rules, including me and you.

Why should you get special treatment because this one type of exploit hurts you in your internet feelings when you don't get to see an explosion ?. It's probably the least serious of the long running issues there are with griefing/ramming/ganking/cheating. FD should put it to the back of the queue and ignore it like they did with SDC's "investigation" support tickets.

 

[OCD]

What is combat logging?

Combat logging is the act of forcefully quitting (by either program task-kill or forced internet disconnect) the game while engaged in combat with another player. Frontier has clarified this act as an exploit, and a bannable offense.
Combat logging via the main menu/desktop via the 15 second timer is a different matter and discussion to be had entirely. Currently, this action is confirmed by Frontier as “legitimate”, and as such is not being addressed in this post.

Why is combat logging bad?

Aside from being classed as exploiting by Frontier themselves, combat logging is bad for the game (and gameplay experience) of both the exploiter and the victim. Not only does logging deprive both players of meaningful interaction in game that is vastly empty and void of a human element, but it stifles the rare emergent experiences that make the game more than a sterile grind.
Furthermore, the very nature of risk and reward is upended (a fundamental aspect of any game) because the combat logging party is never faces any risk of loss. Because the combat logger faces no negative consequences for any action, non-combat loggers must shoulder the full—and completely asymmetrical—burden of risk for any interaction: this disincentivizes meaningful PvP gameplay in a game billed as a space MMO.
Prime examples of gameplay styles that are hard-countered by combat logging include:

• PvP piracy
• Powerplay undermining defense/attacks
• Inter-faction warfare
• Player bounty hunting
• Hunting newbie-killers
• Blockades
• System protection

What does Frontier claim to be doing about it?

After much consternation and discussion involving the relative legality of combat logging with the devs, community, and community managers, Frontier ruled the action of combat logging to be “exploiting”and as such is punishable by shadowbanning offenders (a “shadowban” is a client restriction preventing them from accessing “open play,” which is the online mode with other players.) After this ruling, Frontier has encouraged the reporting and documenting (usually with a YouTube link and supporting chat screenshots) of CMDRs engaging in exploiting. This reporting is done via the support ticketing system, and is usually accompanied by confirmation from Frontier that they have received, and are reviewing, the case of exploiting: they have a stated response time of “usually within 48 hours” for reviewing tickets and supporting documents related to the case.

What appears to be happening?

Despite hundreds of reports of combat loggers, there is no apparent evidence that any action has ever been taken against an exploiter—in fact, there is mounting evidence that Frontier has been lying since the beginning with respect to investigating cases of exploiting. Frontier conveniently maintains that they will not share any details about punitive action taken against an account or whether any action was taken at all, providing them cover to their own policy of neglect. However, we have compiled meticulously documented evidence that Frontier is not only lying about their own policies, but encouraging players to go through the effort of reporting exploiters simply to provide a façade of being anti-exploiter in their own game.

Testing the hypothesis that combat logging is being swept under the rug.

Our test was conducted in the following way, done across two stages.
Stage one:

1. Taskkill Combat loggers were recorded in game, and most admitted to exploiting in chat afterwards in addition to the video evidence.
2. The video hosted on Youtube was set to “unlisted,” meaning that only the party (Frontier) with the direct URL link could access the video.
3. The viewcount with a timestamp was recorded prior to the submission of the evidence to Frontier.
4. We submitted support tickets accompanied with the unlisted video and chat evidence of combat loggers to Frontier, asking for an investigation.
5. We confirmed with support that they did in fact receive our request for an investigation.
6. We waited a minimum of 1 week before following up with support, allowing them a generous window in excess ofthe ~48 hours they require.https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...gation_into_frontiers_actions_on_combat/#img4
7. After confirmation from Frontier that the investigation was complete, we reviewed the view counts on the Youtube video evidence.

Stage two:

1. Three of our own alt accounts were used to taskkill combat log on our members, who recorded footage of said logs and reported them to Frontier support with tickets.
2. Once support had acknowledged that they were looking into the case, the owners of the alt accounts monitored their emails to see if Frontier had punished them in any way.

What we found—Confirmation that Frontier is lying.

After several iterations of reports to Frontier, confirmation that they engaged in an investigation of exploiting, and review of the view counts on the videos, we found that in all instances of reported exploiting, Frontier failed to view any of the video evidence in the reports a single time, even after several weeks and confirmation that they had in fact investigated the reports.
Stage two was aimed at testing Frontier's claims that they can determine taskkills using their internal logs, thereby making the video evidence redundant and/or unnecessary in some cases, and to track any punishments handed out. What we found was that the submitted videos received zero views, and none of our alt accounts have received any form of punishment to this day either - they simply closed the tickets.

Not only is it disconcerting that Frontier tacitly approves of exploiting (as they have defined it themselves) in their own game, but it is unethical that Frontier is willing to not only lie about their anti-exploit actions, but actively encourage players to take the time to record, upload, and file tickets reporting exploiters, knowing full well they will do nothing with the reports. Frontier’s unwillingness to police their own game against exploiters while blatantly lying to the playerbase about it is uncharacteristic of Frontier’s friendly public image, and is a detriment to the player community as a whole.

What does this mean?

Unfortunately, it is impossible to get Frontier to change policy or quit lying about their actions (with respect to exploiters and the community) without exposing their malfeasance for the players to see. We have tried many times through the appropriate channels to get Frontier to either take action or go public with their endorsement of exploiting, but they have lied and dodged every step of the way in order to placate the playerbase. Sometimes it is necessary for players to take it upon themselves to try and improve a game that is under threat; we were forced to do this with the heat meta, and will do it again as necessary. In this instance, it will be by publicising our findings to relevant media sites until Frontier decides to take action.

have you considered moving in with Mr Assange ? Mind you, his internet was cut off so you'd need to play solo or group. I hear he's a terrible logger.

On the topic ..... I would think that due to the mess instancing / wings etc is in at the moment its impossible to do anything about this and tell bugs from c/logs

For example, i was in open some time ago, i got interdicted by someone and submitted for a fight .......... nope just me in an empty instance. Did they log, did they think I had ? I have the same with my wing and wingman nav-lock. last night I could see my wingmans ship and hit it with weapons but he could not see me either on his scanner or visibly.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I don't believe a "crime and punishment" system, however harsh, is going to be the silver bullet that many people seem to think it is. Eve Online has the harshest "crime and punishment" system of any MMO I've ever played. You attack a non hostile target in secure space and you lose your ship, guaranteed. No if's or but's, your ship is destroyed by the omniscient and indestructible security services. Were you flying a ship worth over a billion isk (credits)? Tough, it's gone. Yet ganking still happens, a lot. People still moan about being ganked, a lot. In fact in the first 2 years I played Eve I lost countless ships to other players. In the two years or so I've been playing ED, I think I've lost one ship to another commander and that was in a CZ.

When the revamped "crime and punishment" system does arrive, prepare for disappointment because no matter how severe the penalties, it's not going to stop people from ganking you, I guarantee it.

I agree it wont stop it. I feel it will help though, but either way to try and fail to have a believable economy and BGS (and C&P is central to this) is one thing but no not even try and just accept it is wrong IMO. I am not saying all do it but the hypocrisy shown by some pvpers who exploit the hell out of the many holes in the game make me sick, but I covered this last night

 

[Asp Explorer]

Just take what Asp says about networking with a pinch of salt .. he still thinks punch-cards are a thing :O

You'd probably still get more throughput on a card reader than your average BT broadband though

 

[Sole Hunter]

No thanks, I'll carry on using whichever mode I like.



I've never combat logged. I'll personally report you for accusing me of cheating as often as you do it. I don't care about your excuses.



I don't combat log, you can't tell a fault from a combat log, FD support know what my connections like.....so good-luck with that one.



Why should you get special treatment because this one type of exploit hurts you in your internet feelings when you don't get to see an explosion ?. It's probably the least serious of the long running issues there are with griefing/ramming/ganking/cheating. FD should put it to the back of the queue and ignore it like they did with SDC's "investigation" support tickets.

If you log there's nothing you can do to stop me from opening a ticket or filling an in-game report, that's what I was implying, don't take it personal.

A log is a log no matter what is the perception behind what you are doing. It's frontier job to investigate and make a determination whether or not you had the intention to ''cheat''.

Are you implying cheating is not a serious issue if so you are everything that is wrong with this community. That's what you seem to fail to understand, it is affecting my gameplay because no matter what is your opinion frontier doesn't care, combat logging is cheating. No special treatment for anyone, we are all subject to consequences.

You should be ashamed.

 

[JerryLove]

Seriously? This thread is still going?

Talk about a non-issue.

I disagree.

Yes. Combatlogging is a non-issue.

The thought that people might end up losing access to their game because of network disconnects after a vocal, militant minority browbeats FD into doing so is not a non-issue.

- - - Updated - - -

If you log there's nothing you can do to stop me from opening a ticket or filling an in-game report, that's what I was implying, don't take it personal.

No. But since you are literally taking money from Frontier (spent dealing with your ticket)... perhaps they should consider refunding you your money and deactivating your game.

 

[Sole Hunter]

I disagree.

Yes. Combatlogging is a non-issue.

The thought that people might end up losing access to their game because of network disconnects after a vocal, militant minority browbeats FD into doing so is not a non-issue.

- - - Updated - - -


No. But since you are literally taking money from Frontier (spent dealing with your ticket)... perhaps they should consider refunding you your money and deactivating your game.

Combat logging = cheating = against TOS = justification for opening a ticket.

I fail to see how and why they should consider deactivating my account for logging a formal complaint for something that is against the terms of service and bad for the game.

 

[JerryLove]

Combat logging = cheating = against TOS = justification for opening a ticket.

I fail to see how and why they should consider deactivating my account for logging a formal complaint for something that is against the terms of service and bad for the game.

Because it literally costs them money to deal with your tickets... unlike combat logging. I hear this rumor that they prefer profit to loss.

Sorry. I thought I made that clear in my previous post.

 

[NeilF]

Because it literally costs them money to deal with your tickets... unlike combat logging. I hear this rumor that they prefer profit to loss.

Sorry. I thought I made that clear in my previous post.

Absolutely! And that's time that could be applied far far more usefully...

 

[Sole Hunter]

Absolutely! And that's time that could be applied far far more usefully...

Because cheating/hacking is not an important issue? you are all nuts.

 

[Stigbob]

If you log there's nothing you can do to stop me from opening a ticket or filling an in-game report, that's what I was implying, don't take it personal.

I've only mentioned it umpteen times but since you seem a bit slow I'll repeat it........I don't combat log.

Did it sink in that time ?, please confirm your understanding.

Like i said, nobody care about your excuses, a log is a log no matter what is the perception behind what you are doing. It's frontier job to investigate and make a determination whether or not you had the intention to ''cheat''.

Yesterday I had six disconnects in an hour and a half, they'd need a full time employee just to monitor my connection. Does that sound like a sensible and cost effective way of running a game development company to you ?.

You need to stop fantasizing and realize combat loggings here to stay.

Besides if support were all busy with that they wouldn't have any time for SDC's next "investigation".

Are you implying cheating is not a serious issue if so you are everything that is wrong with this community. That's what you seem to fail to understand, it is affecting my gameplay because no matter what is your opinion frontier doesn't care, combat logging is cheating. No special treatment for anyone, we are all subject to consequences.

Cheating is always a problem, but combat logging is an incredibly minor issue on the cheat spectrum. It also really annoys gankers which is an argument for keeping it.

As a grown up I can't just shout for someone else to get the phone, FD should get rid of the countdown timer it's inconvenient.

You should be ashamed.

Of what ?, living in a lovely house in the country with fantastic views of forest, mountains and the sea, which happens to have a patchy internet connection. No thanks I've achieved a lifelong dream.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Because cheating/hacking is not an important issue? you are all nuts.

Hacking?

 

[_Fissure]

Because cheating/hacking is not an important issue? you are all nuts.

I've given up on trying to reason with some of these people. The fact that they are willingly and openly supporting a formally listed exploit and ban worthy offense speaks volumes to their willingness to see points of view outside their own.

 

[Knightshark]

I've given up on trying to reason with some of these people. The fact that they are willingly and openly supporting a formally listed exploit and ban worthy offense speaks volumes to their willingness to see points of view outside their own.

Mate, every make x mill cr per hour thread is about expoits. The game is full of those. CL is not special. And is is not main issue for many of us.

 

[JuicerPrime]

If you log there's nothing you can do to stop me from opening a ticket or filling an in-game report, that's what I was implying, don't take it personal.

A log is a log no matter what is the perception behind what you are doing. It's frontier job to investigate and make a determination whether or not you had the intention to ''cheat''.

Are you implying cheating is not a serious issue if so you are everything that is wrong with this community. That's what you seem to fail to understand, it is affecting my gameplay because no matter what is your opinion frontier doesn't care, combat logging is cheating. No special treatment for anyone, we are all subject to consequences.

You should be ashamed.

Actually, there is another option. You could maybe consider games a bit less important and exercise some perspective, rather than considering wasting Frontier's time by having them investigate one individual out of the many in Open who failed to explode on the internet for you. You could even say that by choosing to engage a target in Open, you understand the fact that they might have a jittery internet connection and your fun might end at any given moment for reasons out of the control of both parties.

I'm sorry, Sole. The picture you're presenting - that you must not have your time wasted even by internet realities, that participants in the Open game must arrange and manage their circumstances to guarantee your personal enjoyment, and that non-compliance should be pursued and punished because it annoys you - is starting to sour your other arguments.

 

[Spiridon]

Actually, there is another option. You could maybe consider games a bit less important and exercise some perspective, rather than considering wasting Frontier's time by having them investigate one individual out of the many in Open who failed to explode on the internet for you. You could even say that by choosing to engage a target in Open, you understand the fact that they might have a jittery internet connection and your fun might end at any given moment for reasons out of the control of both parties.

I'm sorry, Sole. The picture you're presenting - that you must not have your time wasted even by internet realities, that participants in the Open game must arrange and manage their circumstances to guarantee your personal enjoyment, and that non-compliance should be pursued and punished because it annoys you - is starting to sour your other arguments.

Good points. Rep.

 

[JerryLove]

Because cheating/hacking is not an important issue? you are all nuts.

Because combat logging costs FD no money (and I'm not sure those words mean what you think they mean).

Your tickets do cost FD money.

Tickets that report bugs are likely worth-wile (after all: fixing a bug for one person fixes it for many); but your tickets?

I mean. Let's imagine they pay $15/hr, so with their related taxes and costs a person costs them $30/hr; and let's say 1 man-hour is spent on each ticket you put in (after all: you are asking them to investigate rather than dismiss your ticket).

So every ticket you make costs them $30 right up front. But there's more. You want them to do something bad to some other player. That potentially means a refund of (possibly, if they have purchased skins) hundreds of dollars.
Or if they shadow ban, it may simply represent the loss of the player from future purchases, so hundreds of future dollars (even without paints: if they do 10 seasons at $50: that's $400 remaining in just seasons).

And I'm pretty sure you aren't reporting one person your entire time.

So yea. At the first report: they lose $30 plus a player. If that player is you, they are done. If that player is the other guy: they get to repeat this every time.

And if they cannot substantiate your report: That's $30 with nothing at all resolved.

So yea: *you* are actually the issues. Costing FD time, money, and man-hours that could instead be used to make the game I play better.

Combat loggers are not harming me at all.

 

[Sole Hunter]

I've given up on trying to reason with some of these people. The fact that they are willingly and openly supporting a formally listed exploit and ban worthy offense speaks volumes to their willingness to see points of view outside their own.

I know it’s unreal, i must be dreaming. It's just horrible to see a community condone cheating. This is the kind of people who need to be perma banned from open for breaking the rules.

''oh yeah i just got disconnected 12 times yesterday, it's not a big deal! I'll just keep playing in open and ruin others fun!''

Just unbelievable, lost for words.

 

[JerryLove]

I know it’s unreal, i must be dreaming. It's just horrible to see a community condone cheating. This is the kind of people who need to be perma banned from open for breaking the rules.

''oh yeah i just got disconnected 12 times yesterday, it's not a big deal! I'll just keep playing in open and ruin others fun!''

Just unbelievable, lost for words.

And yet.. they don't hurt my enjoyment one bit, and they don't cost FD dollars.

 

[Sole Hunter]

''combat logging is fine because it doesn't harm me''

''You are wasting frontier resources by reporting cheaters''

LOL, man this community is unbelievable.

yeah! let's not waste the police resources because robbers don't harm you.