General / Off-Topic The persecutions of the British

[Stigbob]

That`s like a rehash of the old "Irish Question" phrase, from our point of view it was the "English question", in that our problems stemmed from England's/Britain's policy in Ireland.

I mean you wouldn`t be too enamored if Ireland landed over and took control of 20% of the English landmass, I bet ye would start tearing each other apart in jig time. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

There are no mutually hostile factions within the mainland population, they wouldn't need to unite against an invader as they are already united. They wouldn't tear each other apart they'd go for the occupiers.

EDIT : there are some places in Scotland where the protestant catholic split is still a thing with occasional violence, but it's very rare (outside football hooliganism) and getting rarer by the day. On the mainland it's not been an issue for hundreds of years.

I have to say your wrong on a few fronts, there will be no coercion in the North, we all voted for a free vote on the issue and when it happens, it happens. History is important to remember so we learn from it and avoid making the same mistakes. It should be able to be discussed warts and all instead of being brushed under the carpet because it makes for uncomfortable listening. It should challenge our own preconceptions of same and no one should be afraid of the facts and deal with them head on. Its kind of pointless living with a fantasy history that whitewashes events too uncomfortable to deal with and confront. Propaganda is based on lies not historical fact, fail to comprehend history and the mistakes of the past and you`ll make no sense of the present.

I'm not trying to brush anything under the carpet I'm not arguing for any form of censorship. Specifically one of the things that we can't afford to brush under the carpet is the fact that both factions used their biased view of history (propaganda) to keep old grudges alive and to recruit new members and outside supporters to their cause. The disagreements over this history are also a frequent cause of low level disputes between the factions, which can then become a more serious problem in a divided country. We need to understand history to properly understand how damaging a one sided view of history can be, the troubles should be the textbook example of that. What history shouldn't be is a reason to start bricking each others kids and calling it morality.

I've never been to NI (I'm going to make sure I do soon and I promise I won't go on a tour!) and although I'm aware of what has gone on I'm in no way qualified to say what I'm about to say so please don't be offended if I have got this wrong. To me history or the importance of history is about learning from mistakes. The peace process in NI is working because you have realised that your history was making you kill each other and you've collectively decided to just stop and forgive. It is an amazing feat.

That's what I was trying to say.

 

[Moonax IRL]

There are no mutually hostile factions within the mainland population, they wouldn't need to unite against an invader as they are already united. They wouldn't tear each other apart they'd go for the occupiers.

EDIT : there are some places in Scotland where the protestant catholic split is still a thing with occasional violence, but it's very rare (outside football hooliganism) and getting rarer by the day. On the mainland it's not been an issue for hundreds of years.

You miss the point a bit. If Ireland annexed 20% of Britain and then sent 1 million colonists from the Irish mainland to that annexed region would you think there would be conflict or would England just accept it.

As I said before history is history, facts speak for themselves however uncomfortable, regardless of bias.

 

[Stigbob]

You miss the point a bit. If Ireland annexed 20% of Britain and then sent 1 million colonists from the Irish mainland to that annexed region would you think there would be conflict or would England just accept it.

Do you mean conflict immediately or conflict against the British born descendants of those colonists a few centuries later who would have far more in common with the British than with the Irish ?.

I'll answer both, there would be immediate conflict which Britain would win. In the entirely theoretical situation of the Irish gaining the upper hand, Nato would be obligated to intervene. You might as well ask how the British would react to a Martian invasion, it's more likely to happen.

In the long term there are the descendants of Roman, Norman and Viking invaders all living in Britain, and nobodies upset about it. Medieval thinking has happily been left behind as a historical curiosity.

 

[verminstar]

I dont have anything against the south, I just find it hard to put into words how I feel about them...I dont identify with them at all, but I dont hate them. They never did anything on me so I got no reason to hate them.

But I grew up in a fairly violent background in omagh...fights, either running from them or into them was pretty much a daily feature. Even in school, ye got yer knuckles rapped if ye didnt stand for the national anthem, and 3 of our teachers were DUP and orange grandmasters...I realize now was as much a victim of state sponsored indoctrination that took decades to overcome.

Fer reasons I wont expand on, the peelers beat me once and made up some charge...threw me into a cell with an IRA man who was up fer possession. We actually became the best of friends in the end and found we had more in common than we realized. The school he went to also practiced a form of indoctrination in an attempt to embitter them against any non catholics...this was church sponsored indoctrination because all his teachers had been nuns and priests.

Hes dead now...murdered by my own side because they claimed he was a serving member of the IRA. A claim I knew to be factually wrong but because I had turned my back on my own and made friends with the enemy, I had both my arms broken and was told to leave east belfast. Had I been some nobody foot soldier, I would have been put in a box on the same day my friend was.

The thing is like the mafia in that ye never actually leave. When yer due a punishment beating, ye get a phone call telling ye where and when yer gonna get it, so ye have a few hours to make arrangements...but ye dont run and hide and make them come looking for ye. Ye do that and it will be much much worse...ye turn up and ye take yer beating like a man and thats the end of it.

That was then, this is now. If I held onto grudges, then believe me I have a lotta wrongs done to me to hold grudges about, but fer the sake of our children, we have to stop, otherwise we make a mess of their future. As fer the future...I hope never to see a united ireland, but it will happen in my daughters lifetime...in fact deep down, I secretly hope it does happen...after Im gone as I really do fear fer myself personally in such an event. Republicans hold grudges that go down through generations...they will never forgive and forget and that is why I fear them still to this day. If they get a united ireland, then Im 100% certain they will have a mind to settle old scores.

And that is why I have not passed on any of my sectarian beliefs onto my daughter who simply doesnt understand why we did what we did. Im glad shes more like an outsider in that respect...her future will be better than what we went through, but asking me to accept a united ireland now is simply asking too much. I will not...cannot accept it no matter how hard I try. Fer all its flaws and bad memories, its still my home and theres a union jack outside my home 365 days a year fer a reason.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Do you mean conflict immediately or conflict against the British born descendants of those colonists a few centuries later who would have far more in common with the British than with the Irish ?.

I'll answer both, there would be immediate conflict which Britain would win. In the entirely theoretical situation of the Irish gaining the upper hand, Nato would be obligated to intervene. You might as well ask how the British would react to a Martian invasion, it's more likely to happen.

In the long term there are the descendants of Roman, Norman and Viking invaders all living in Britain, and nobodies upset about it. Medieval thinking has happily been left behind as a historical curiosity.

As you said there would be conflict and of course ongoing tension, hardly surprising now is it.

 

[Moonax IRL]

That was then, this is now. If I held onto grudges, then believe me I have a lotta wrongs done to me to hold grudges about, but fer the sake of our children, we have to stop, otherwise we make a mess of their future. As fer the future...I hope never to see a united ireland, but it will happen in my daughters lifetime...in fact deep down, I secretly hope it does happen...after Im gone as I really do fear fer myself personally in such an event. Republicans hold grudges that go down through generations...they will never forgive and forget and that is why I fear them still to this day. If they get a united ireland, then Im 100% certain they will have a mind to settle old scores.

I guess that`s why there are no descendants of those planters in Ireland. Rubbish of course as there are and all over Ireland. They are our neighbours, our family members, our cousins. All Irish citizens equal under the law. As I said before the pogroms took place in the North against Catholic`s.

 

[Stigbob]

As you said there would be conflict and of course ongoing tension, hardly surprising now is it.

No I gave you three historical examples of conflict that stopped over time due to people learning to get along instead of desperately clinging to their bigotry for generations. But that doesn't fit in with your prejudice, so you ignored it.

 

[Moonax IRL]

No I gave you three historical examples of conflict that stopped over time due to people learning to get along instead of desperately clinging to their bigotry for generations. But that doesn't fit in with your prejudice, so you ignored it.

So you are saying there would be no conflict and ongoing tension as a result.

See thats how simplistic your examples were, you either have conflict and on going tension until the issues are resolved or you have no conflict and no tension as a result. A source of that tension would of course be an outside state holding on to 20% of your landmass.

You can`t be slightly pregnant.

 

[Stigbob]

So you are saying there would be no conflict and ongoing tension as a result.

Hundreds of years later there isn't any conflict and ongoing tension, so British history would indicate that deeply ingrained bigotry is very much an optional thing. Those fires of hatred keep on burning, because it's passed on one generation to the next and children from either side are indoctrinated against "the enemy".

As Verminstar has recognized and done his best not to pass onto his daughter, good for him and most definitely good for her. Her prospects in education, employment and relationships just massively broadened because she won't shut herself away within a faction of one community, that can only be a good thing.

EDIT : verminstar I'm out of rep.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Hundreds of years later there isn't any conflict and ongoing tension, so British history would indicate that deeply ingrained bigotry is very much an optional thing. Those fires of hatred keep on burning, because it's passed on one generation to the next and children from either side are indoctrinated against "the enemy".

As Verminstar has recognized and done his best not to pass onto his daughter, good for him and most definitely good for her. Her prospects in education, employment and relationships just massively broadened because she won't shut herself away within a faction of one community, that can only be a good thing.

EDIT : verminstar I'm out of rep.

What about the chunk of Irish territory off mainland Ireland stuck in Britain taking 20% of your landmass, you would be happy for that to remain.

 

[Stigbob]

What about the chunk of Irish territory off mainland Ireland stuck in Britain taking 20% of your landmass, you would be happy for that to remain.

I don't understand where you are referring to or what the question is. Do you mean the North which is geographically part of Ireland, or do you mean something that's actually off the coast of Ireland as in detached from it. Also remain what ?.

 

[Moonax IRL]

I don't understand where you are referring to or what the question is. Do you mean the North which is geographically part of Ireland, or do you mean something that's actually off the coast of Ireland as in detached from it. Also remain what ?.

I mean that 20% of Britain's landmass that was annexed as Irish territory as set out in my initial question. In other words a chunk of Irish territory on the Island of Britain off the Irish mainland.

 

[Stigbob]

I mean that 20% of Britain's landmass that was annexed as Irish territory as set out in my initial question. In other words a chunk of Irish territory on the Island of Britain off the Irish mainland.

Ah I thought you were referring to something real not imaginary, as I had already answered that.

I have no strong opinion either way towards a theoretical Irish enclave in Britain, other than that history teaches us that over time there would be integration and the enclave (and not the people in it) would cease to be.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Ah I thought you were referring to something real not imaginary, as I had already answered that.

I have no strong opinion either way towards a theoretical Irish enclave in Britain, other than that history teaches us that over time there would be integration and the enclave (and not the people in it) would cease to be.

The purpose of my initial question was propose the example of an analogue to the Irish & NI situation but this time in Britain, a mirror opposite if you like. That is a fairly straight forward scenario to understand. Hence my argument that conflict and a source of continuing tension would also be the outworking of such a situation, no different to the Irish experience.

 

[Arry]

A nicely derailed thread guys.

We were talking about the way the British government humiliates and oppresses its people who are in most need. Ok there is a parallel there, if you go back to the potato famine etc., but we are talking about today. Today there are British subjects, who have worked hard and now require assistance from the state to get through this winter. They have to jump through hoops, meet often near impossible conditions against bureaucrats that are solely employed to cut costs. Benefit claims are often refused and rejected not on grounds of entitlement, but as a matter of procedure and when they are eventually granted, they do not meet the claimants basic needs to keep warm and eat. But you guys keep going on about 'the Irish question' and the 'brexit question' and pretend that no one in the UK is going hungry, because the likes of the Daily Mail, say it is not so.

10 & 5

 

[Moonax IRL]

A nicely derailed thread guys.

We were talking about the way the British government humiliates and oppresses its people who are in most need. Ok there is a parallel there, if you go back to the potato famine etc., but we are talking about today. Today there are British subjects, who have worked hard and now require assistance from the state to get through this winter. They have to jump through hoops, meet often near impossible conditions against bureaucrats that are solely employed to cut costs. Benefit claims are often refused and rejected not on grounds of entitlement, but as a matter of procedure and when they are eventually granted, they do not meet the claimants basic needs to keep warm and eat. But you guys keep going on about 'the Irish question' and the 'brexit question' and pretend that no one in the UK is going hungry, because the likes of the Daily Mail, say it is not so.

Apologies.

 

[Stigbob]

The purpose of my initial question was propose the example of an analogue to the Irish & NI situation but this time in Britain, a mirror opposite if you like. That is a fairly straight forward scenario to understand. Hence my argument that conflict and a source of continuing tension would also be the outworking of such a situation, no different to the Irish experience.

Yes and I answered it above, in reality any invasion would lead to immediate conflict which Britain would obviously win so the questions entirely theoretical.

However in the theoretical outcome you describe we have to take history as our example, so we can safely conclude that over hundreds of years tensions would fade and communities would integrate as has happened repeatedly during Britain's history. Mainland Britain left any catholic and protestant conflict behind along with witch-burning (this is literally true I'm not being sarcastic), it simply isn't a thing here anymore. No parallel problem is possible unless you replaced the entire population with people who do care about that sort of thing.

 

[Yaffle]

A nicely derailed thread guys.

We were talking about the way the British government humiliates and oppresses its people who are in most need. Ok there is a parallel there, if you go back to the potato famine etc., but we are talking about today. Today there are British subjects, who have worked hard and now require assistance from the state to get through this winter. They have to jump through hoops, meet often near impossible conditions against bureaucrats that are solely employed to cut costs. Benefit claims are often refused and rejected not on grounds of entitlement, but as a matter of procedure and when they are eventually granted, they do not meet the claimants basic needs to keep warm and eat. But you guys keep going on about 'the Irish question' and the 'brexit question' and pretend that no one in the UK is going hungry, because the likes of the Daily Mail, say it is not so.

I have a little sympathy with the Government of any time with the problem. I get the general impression that most people want to work, but of those there will be some who lack the skills, or are in the wrong place, for whatever reason to do work that pays well enough for them to exist. I think governments recognise that and try to help. Pushing the other way is a number of people who really don't want to work, and will work really quite hard at avoiding it. This set annoys those who both pay into the system and those trying to help themselves but struggling. They are also the target for the media, with headlines of something like 'single mum with twelve kids by nine men is on £50k a year benefits'. So then the government has to do something, or at least seen to be doing something, but ends up punishing those who are trying rather than dealing with the 'layabout' problem.

The link I gave earlier I think is really interesting - http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/

It's the ONS, so about as good as data can get in this area.

UB is tiny. If it was 100% fraudulently claimed it's still only 1% of the whole spend. So, really, it's a waste of time and money with all the gatekeepers around it. Those are there to try and appease the media as much as anything.

 

[Pyrotiger]

A nicely derailed thread guys.

We were talking about the way the British government humiliates and oppresses its people who are in most need. Ok there is a parallel there, if you go back to the potato famine etc., but we are talking about today. Today there are British subjects, who have worked hard and now require assistance from the state to get through this winter. They have to jump through hoops, meet often near impossible conditions against bureaucrats that are solely employed to cut costs. Benefit claims are often refused and rejected not on grounds of entitlement, but as a matter of procedure and when they are eventually granted, they do not meet the claimants basic needs to keep warm and eat. But you guys keep going on about 'the Irish question' and the 'brexit question' and pretend that no one in the UK is going hungry, because the likes of the Daily Mail, say it is not so.

10

Apologies for my part in that - it's a subject of strong feeling, and I don't think anybody did it deliberately - it just drifted there.

There is a whole raft of society in denial of how bad things are because it's inconvenient and it spoils their narrative of "poor people should work hard like me" because they don't want to care.

The food banks are a national disgrace. The housing situation is shameful. Of course, some families mismanage their money and are pulled down a road of credit, taught that possessions are happiness and basically ripped off. Personal responsibility is important, yet if people exercised more we would still have problems.

How is it a child's fault when the only real meal they get a day is in school, they arrive in the middle of winter with no coat and go home to share a bed in a crowded flat, freezing cold? This does happen, and has been happening more and more since 2008. Schools bend over backwards to feed them as social services are in disarray.

Meanwhile maybe as little 5 miles down the road, little Hermione is waiting for her lift from her after school fencing club by the child minder, so she can go straight to her tutor. She has no idea about the poverty and the suffering right under her nose. She is sad that she barely sees her parents, apart from on their frequent holidays abroad, but mummy says they must work so much because they are not like those lazy people down the road who want to scrounge and those dirty kids who thieve and Hermione's inevitably extortionate university bills will not pay for themselves. Hermione sees a future where she will 'sacrifice' herself for her children in exactly the same way, but hey they'll have PS55s with better alternate reality - The Modern childhood. That's personal responsibility.

Welcome to England 2017 where people have been conditioned to live a fantasy.

 

[Arry]

Apologies for my part in that - it's a subject of strong feeling, and I don't think anybody did it deliberately - it just drifted there.

There is a whole raft of society in denial of how bad things are because it's inconvenient and it spoils their narrative of "poor people should work hard like me" because they don't want to care.

The food banks are a national disgrace. The housing situation is shameful. Of course, some families mismanage their money and are pulled down a road of credit, taught that possessions are happiness and basically ripped off. Personal responsibility is important, yet if people exercised more we would still have problems.

How is it a child's fault when the only real meal they get a day is in school, they arrive in the middle of winter with no coat and go home to share a bed in a crowded flat, freezing cold? This does happen, and has been happening more and more since 2008. Schools bend over backwards to feed them as social services are in disarray.

Meanwhile maybe as little 5 miles down the road, little Hermione is waiting for her lift from her after school fencing club by the child minder, so she can go straight to her tutor. She has no idea about the poverty and the suffering right under her nose. She is sad that she barely sees her parents, apart from on their frequent holidays abroad, but mummy says they must work so much because they are not like those lazy people down the road who want to scrounge and those dirty kids who thieve and Hermione's inevitably extortionate university bills will not pay for themselves. Hermione sees a future where she will 'sacrifice' herself for her children in exactly the same way, but hey they'll have PS55s with better alternate reality - The Modern childhood. That's personal responsibility.

Welcome to England 2017 where people have been conditioned to live a fantasy.

I have no issue with the Hermiones of this world, or even how they gained their advantages. I do have an issue with a system that bails out banks, that have failed due to greed, but then cuts basic services to those that depend on them; to fund the bill.