General / Off-Topic Northern Ireland...a very unique problem

[Moonax IRL]

People know how to use ignore, right?

Good Friday agreement, like it or not, also allowed release of terrorists, gave Dublin a say and was a tangible reward for the armed struggle (some might say). Not all who voted for it were for peace at any costs, and not all against it were for violence.

Armtwisting was a constant factor during the process, amongst politicians and voters. But ultimately the will of the people in voting yes seems to have been ignored with this fiasco - and by Martin McGuinness.

Westminster didn't dissolve when the expenses fiasco occurred, and you could argue that was an event involving greater corruption and duplicity.

Let's just say that the blame for this Cash for Ash (I don't think the band are involved!) lies with the DUP and cronies. Are we saying that Nationalists and Republicans have never exploited any money making scams in NI? Of course they have! Cross community organisations took a lot of money from European funding, when they were heavily from one side of the community, maybe with an occasional token prod to make it look better. Crossborder bodies? Far from ethical. Also, when it comes to screwing the welfare state, Nationalists/Republicans wrote the book on it. Yet I don't see any big enquiries into this or Stormont coming down because of it.

Martin McGuinness didn't just resign because "he is a nice person". Political capital is being made from the blame game game, as always. If Stormont falls, I say stick the murderers back in jail! I bet Martin would beg for his job back then.

Delusional.

 

[verminstar]

I'm worried about asking this for fear of it being taken the wrong way but I think you will know it is just genuine curiosity.... Suppose for whatever reason (say Brexit) NI leaves the UK and joins the republic. If, given the choice, would you rather move to another part of the UK or stay put and reluctantly end up living in the Republic?

It depends on how its done...if its a democratic decision then I would respect that and fade away into the background and move elsewhere in the uk. I do have genuine reason to fear the repercussions and republicans are well known to hold grudges.

If it not a democratic decision and has been achieved by political shenanigans, Ill fight my corner with everything I have...no surrender as we say round these parts.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Before we all end up at each others throats.....


If I understand the scandal correctly didn't it all originate from a technical mistake

Effectively the calculation of the subsidy gave a figure higher than the cost of the material.

Is there any evidence that

A)it was a deliberate design rather than incompetence

B)any of those who were directly involved in its creation benefited.from it financially

It seems like a shame for the peace in NI to go backwards because of a flubbed green heating scheme. I mean it's hardly Watergate or the Profumo affair....

DUP were informed that it was a mess, and open to total abuse and still persisted with it, actually the real damage was done after the warning was given as the number of sign ups to the scheme increased by a large margin after same. Basically it could have been nipped in the bud if the warnings were heeded. There were also previous corruption scandals involving the DUP and cronyism such as Red Sky & NAMA. I would like someone to name such corruption by Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein TD`s, MP`s & MLA`s all just take the average industrial wage, the rest is handed over to the party which can often be handed out to the community for people in need etc. Sinn Fein is a socialist as well as Republican movement at its core,

Also on the loyalist side you have the UVF, UDA and co dining out on free EU money while running a drugs empire in their own communities. Nationalists/Republicans have never been involved in the drug game and intimidation of their communities like loyalists gangs. Washing diesel & fuel smuggling is the old provo MO and they seem to have plenty of loyalists as customers.

http://www.thedetail.tv/articles/the-dup-s-full-role-in-red-sky-row-revealed

https://fora.ie/nama-bbc-spotlight-secret-recording-2-2968295-Sep2016/

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...build-sports-facility-in-bangor-34520920.html

 

[Stigbob]

DUP were informed that it was a mess, open and to total abuse and still persisted with it, actually the real damage was done after the warning was given as the number of sign ups to the scheme increased by a large margin after same. Basically it could have been nipped in the bud if the warnings were heeded. There were also previous corruption scandals involving the DUP and cronyism such as Red Sky & NAMA. I would like someone to name such corruption by Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein TD`s, MP`s & MLA`s all just take the average industrial wage, the rest is handed over the party which can often be handed out to the community for people in need etc. Sinn Fein is a socialist as well as Republican movement at its core,

Also on the loyalist side you have the UVF and co dining out on free EU money while running a drugs empire in their own communities. Nationalists/Republicans have never been involved in the drug game and intimidation of their communities like loyalists gangs. Washing diesel & fuel smuggling is the old provo MO and they seem to have plenty of loyalists as customers.

The main element of corruption Sinn Fein was involved in would be collusion with the IRA who were always just as involved in the drug trade as the UVF, but that's nothing new and not specific to Sinn Fein. The thing with isolationist factions is they prefer to stick with own even when it comes to selling harmful illegal drugs.

 

[verminstar]

Before we all end up at each others throats.....


If I understand the scandal correctly didn't it all originate from a technical mistake

Effectively the calculation of the subsidy gave a figure higher than the cost of the material.

Is there any evidence that

A)it was a deliberate design rather than incompetence

B)any of those who were directly involved in its creation benefited.from it financially

It seems like a shame for the peace in NI to go backwards because of a flubbed green heating scheme. I mean it's hardly Watergate or the Profumo affair....

Its ok, I have moonax muted now...hate doing that but hes a very spiteful soul full of hate and I see enough of that every day in real life.

The investigation to find out has been blocked because of the good friday agreement...which is an irony in itself. The GFA relies on having two power sharing main parties, each nominating one of their own to be the first minister or deputy first, depending on how many seats they have in stormont. In this case, thats the uniponist DUP and the republican sinn fein.

Arlene Foster was the Dup first minister and she is the one whom the fingers are pointing at, and it would appear the entire blame lies with one party and the scheme was controlled by them only. All the other parties, including SF demanded Foster step down while an investigation can be carried out...she refused and SF have since refused to share power with them, hence why Martin resigned. This effectively means Foster is removed as per ther terms of the GFA, power cannot be held by one party only...it takes two or none at all.

This move means the investigation will still go ahead...but has been delayed long enough to create a rift. Gets somewhat complicated as regards the law, but bottom line is that if SF dont nominate a new deputy to represent them, the London has no choice but to call a snap election. SF want an election, as do many of the other parties, including the other unionist parties fer one very simply reason. The last time we had an election of this kind was 18 years ago...the results of that decided who the two main power sharing parties were...so its fair to assume attitudes might have changed and it could potentially shake the house up.

If the election fails to change the status quo, then the executive collapses, as does the GFA and we go back to direct rule from London and Dublin...this is where brexit and pandoras box gets opened. Id rather not try and guess what could happen then, but the outlook isnt good.

This latest scandal is merely the last in a long list that broke the camels back as it were...it is most certainly not the first time our politicians have messed up. That being said, the evntual bill to the taxpayer is about half a billion regardless what the outcome will be...that still has to be paid no matter what, even if those getting the money were scamming the system because the entire scheme was legal and came with the first ministers seal of approval. The law is the law after all and there no way around it...that part is inevitable.

 

[Moonax IRL]

As I said before the truth and facts speak for themselves, but a lot of people seem to be afraid of the truth and would rather run away from it. Regarding the latest DUP scandal, the damage could be 1 Billion in total, 500 million from the North`s taxpayers & 500 million from the rest of the UK`s taxpayers..

 

[verminstar]

The main element of corruption Sinn Fein was involved in would be collusion with the IRA who were always just as involved in the drug trade as the UVF, but that's nothing new and not specific to Sinn Fein. The thing with isolationist factions is they prefer to stick with own even when it comes to selling harmful illegal drugs.

As someone who has been involved with drugs fer most my adult life, some little truths which cannot be proven...just my word.

The UVF actually source most of their drugs from republican sources in that both factions work together and have done since the ceasefires...makes economical sense after all. Of course, the members on the ground deny this as it paints both sides in a very bad light...however this is something I know as fact and have known fer some time. There are no links to prove that obviously.

Which side is worse is debateable...loyalists and republicans alike stay in their own areas more or less and dont mess with each others business interests. Both sides regularly carry out punishment beatins and kneecapping to police their own areas, although loyalists have a no guns rule, bats and hammers only fer beatings. Republicans are less inclined and seem to regularly use guns to carry out punishment beatings. The rest of the silly stuff like random botched attacks are not sanctioned by the main leadership...most the time, thats just thugs settling old scores.

Meanwhile, certain areas of the city are divided up between both factions...it means that dealers are allowed to deal only in certain areas and clubs. They pay protection money to their own faction but if they sell on someone else turf, then consequences are swift and brutal and will be carried out by yer own faction. Crime here is highly organised and disipline is kept through brutality and fear. Outsiders and tourists are off limits...by and large nobody is allowed to touch them because they bring fresh money in from outside and business isnt that great when everyone is afraid of coming here.

Many of these agreements have been made by both factions working together...another side effect of peace.

 

[Gortron]

It depends on how its done...if its a democratic decision then I would respect that and fade away into the background and move elsewhere in the uk. I do have genuine reason to fear the repercussions and republicans are well known to hold grudges.

If it not a democratic decision and has been achieved by political shenanigans, Ill fight my corner with everything I have...no surrender as we say round these parts.

Thanks for answering that. I hope the current problems get resolved and it's not something you ever have to deal with. At least you know you'd be welcome elsewhere in the UK if it came to it.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Loyalism is just a byword for criminality, this old rubbish of "the republicans are at it as well" is just a smoke screen to muddy the waters. As I said a cursory search will show the carry on of these criminals and what they do to their own communities, all with the knowledge of their halfwit DUP cronies in power, the articles previously linked are just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[TenakaFurey]

Your absolutely dreadful medieval bias is showing it's very ugly face again.

Unfortunately, the DUP are running NI as if it were the 60s again. They aren't out to build bridges or bind the communities together.

They're out to ensure the well being of their voters and noone else. This scheme was largely created and pushed by the DUP and it'll cost the taxpayer a lot of money. Unfortunately, tribal politics being what they are, the electorate won't hold the DUP to account for their actions and incompetence.

 

[verminstar]

Thanks for answering that. I hope the current problems get resolved and it's not something you ever have to deal with. At least you know you'd be welcome elsewhere in the UK if it came to it.

Used to live in london...well had a flat there I used if that counts. I suppose it depends on many things like whether or not my daughter is still at an age where she needs my support...if not and she goes to live her own life, then I have a lot more options. One also hopes we dont get to that point, although some are literally rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of a return to the old ways. I could hazard a guess who they are...they exist on both sides...the old guard (

 

[verminstar]

Unfortunately, the DUP are running NI as if it were the 60s again. They aren't out to build bridges or bind the communities together.

They're out to ensure the well being of their voters and noone else. This scheme was largely created and pushed by the DUP and it'll cost the taxpayer a lot of money. Unfortunately, tribal politics being what they are, the electorate won't hold the DUP to account for their actions and incompetence.

I somewhat agree and disagree...sinn fein also hold a number of ministerial positions so the country has been run effectively by both DUP and SF...both parties have made messes of their own with SF making an absolute mess of our education system with their extremely biased irish language direction and primary school selection processes.

However, yes the DUP...my own side who I will agree have a very 1950 and 60s religious bias. These the morons who stand with placards outside shopping centres on sundays demanding the sabbath be respected, and stand on street corners with loudspeakers calling on everyone to repent their sins and handing out fliers that nobody reads. Their mindset is very much with religious indoctrination, but their support base is the older generations. They have kept us about 50 years behind the rest of the world with their backward attitudes...a necessary evil because they at least kept us british while other parties compromised too much and literally gave republicans everything on a silver platter.

Too much compromise from us and nothing back from republicans meant we put our worst nightmares into the hotseat because they are much tougher politically. We paying the price now, but better that than Trimble and his UUP who were giving too much ground to SF. Hopefully the last decade or so of being political nobodies have taught the UUP some humility if we vote them back in...at this rate, Ill setlle fer a compromise over the alternative.

So I do agree that the DUP are a about as useful as a chocolate fireguard...and they my side as it were ^

 

[Moonax IRL]

I somewhat agree and disagree...sinn fein also hold a number of ministerial positions so the country has been run effectively by both DUP and SF...both parties have made messes of their own with SF making an absolute mess of our education system with their extremely biased irish language direction and primary school selection processes.

However, yes the DUP...my own side who I will agree have a very 1950 and 60s religious bias. These the morons who stand with placards outside shopping centres on sundays demanding the sabbath be respected, and stand on street corners with loudspeakers calling on everyone to repent their sins and handing out fliers that nobody reads. Their mindset is very much with religious indoctrination, but their support base is the older generations. They have kept us about 50 years behind the rest of the world with their backward attitudes...a necessary evil because they at least kept us british while other parties compromised too much and literally gave republicans everything on a silver platter.

Too much compromise from us and nothing back from republicans meant we put our worst nightmares into the hotseat because they are much tougher politically. We paying the price now, but better that than Trimble and his UUP who were giving too much ground to SF. Hopefully the last decade or so of being political nobodies have taught the UUP some humility if we vote them back in...at this rate, Ill setlle fer a compromise over the alternative.

So I do agree that the DUP are a about as useful as a chocolate fireguard...and they my side as it were ^

Respect for the Irish Language and an Irish Language Act are a signed & agreed part of the Good Friday Agreement. Such matters are not for dispute as they formed part of the GFA therefore its implementation in the North is part of the agreement. See those troublesome facts and truth again, loyalist/unionists seem incapable of dealing with either. Sinn Fein have already stated there will be no return to power sharing until the GFA is implemented as agreed, that is cross border bodies, Irish language Act, etc.

 

[Stigbob]

Unfortunately, the DUP are running NI as if it were the 60s again. They aren't out to build bridges or bind the communities together.

They're out to ensure the well being of their voters and noone else. This scheme was largely created and pushed by the DUP and it'll cost the taxpayer a lot of money. Unfortunately, tribal politics being what they are, the electorate won't hold the DUP to account for their actions and incompetence.

All extremists claim they are right currently and historically, anything and everything is turned into an excuse to vilify, justify or both. Everyone has an agenda and everyone is in the wrong. My sympathies lie with Joe Public trying to get by caught in the middle, and my respect goes to anyone willing to attempt a move forward through cooperation especially if it takes them well outside their comfort zone.

 

[verminstar]

All extremists claim they are right currently and historically, anything and everything is turned into an excuse to vilify, justify or both. Everyone has an agenda and everyone is in the wrong. My sympathies lie with Joe Public trying to get by caught in the middle, and my respect goes to anyone willing to attempt a move forward through cooperation especially if it takes them well outside their comfort zone.

Im not looking fer respect and will simply repeat something I have always said...if its the democratic will to have a united ireland, I wouldnt be happy, but would respect that because I respect the ethos of democracy. The only reason I do fight my corner is because the majority do not want a united ireland....hence my beliefs are a part of the majority to stay in the UK. Respect the decision and move or simply vanish...that is the price of believing in democracy that I will absolutely respect.

Tis a shame there are many in the UK who do not respect democracy, and justify their sorry stance by twisting the logic to suit them. I have much less respect fer those who even so much as attempt to ignore a majority decision...I regard them as the lowest of the low and will not respect their so called rights if they do not respect ours. If that means escalating to a level where actual communication is replaced with something else much uglier, then so be it. I would be the biggest hypocrite if I did what they did and stamp my feet in a tantrum.

I really dont care how others justify their beliefs...those are mine and they not up fer renogotiation and the law can take a running jump fer all I care.

 

[beelbeebub]

As someone who has been involved with drugs fer most my adult life, some little truths which cannot be proven...just my word.

The UVF actually source most of their drugs from republican sources in that both factions work together and have done since the ceasefires...makes economical sense after all. Of course, the members on the ground deny this as it paints both sides in a very bad light...however this is something I know as fact and have known fer some time. There are no links to prove that obviously.

Which side is worse is debateable...loyalists and republicans alike stay in their own areas more or less and dont mess with each others business interests. Both sides regularly carry out punishment beatins and kneecapping to police their own areas, although loyalists have a no guns rule, bats and hammers only fer beatings. Republicans are less inclined and seem to regularly use guns to carry out punishment beatings. The rest of the silly stuff like random botched attacks are not sanctioned by the main leadership...most the time, thats just thugs settling old scores.

Meanwhile, certain areas of the city are divided up between both factions...it means that dealers are allowed to deal only in certain areas and clubs. They pay protection money to their own faction but if they sell on someone else turf, then consequences are swift and brutal and will be carried out by yer own faction. Crime here is highly organised and disipline is kept through brutality and fear. Outsiders and tourists are off limits...by and large nobody is allowed to touch them because they bring fresh money in from outside and business isnt that great when everyone is afraid of coming here.

Many of these agreements have been made by both factions working together...another side effect of peace.

there is a huge irony here that the shenanigans of the various factions, cooperating and working together on criminal enterprise. just go to show it can be done.

 

[verminstar]

there is a huge irony here that the shenanigans of the various factions, cooperating and working together on criminal enterprise. just go to show it can be done.

Yes it most certainly is an irony. One the most prominent loyalist commanders runs a business supplying bouncers and door staff to every club in the city, which in turn means they control everything and everyone going in and out. As ye say...an irony in itself because its all legal and above board...on the outside that everyone sees ^

They not all working together...some are but most hate the sight of each other, but on the business side, there is cooperation although most arent aware of it. They learned much since the 90s and now the scams arent being enforced by thugs wearing bomber jackets...they wear shirts and ties now and hide behind a number of lawyers and solicitors who know the law inside out. Bit like the mafia which means investigating them is time consuming and mostly futile.

When a scapegoat is required, then some low levels are setup like sacrificial lambs to keep the peelers happy...they get arrests which means the public are fooled into thinking the police are effective...the truth however is that they may as well pee into the wind fer all the use they are. Nobody trusts them and touts face severe consequences. Its more organised than the political executive in stormont and far more effective.

 

[Moonax IRL]

there is a huge irony here that the shenanigans of the various factions, cooperating and working together on criminal enterprise. just go to show it can be done.

There are a few criminal elements on the fringes that may be involved in drugs and may purport to be republicans but they are anything but. You have RAAD in Derry who are actively killing drug dealers in that city, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Action_Against_Drugs.
In the South there are the dissident republican groups who are in an active war with criminal gangs in Dublin in relation to the drugs trade, http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/iris...t-republicans-release-chilling-threat-7482871.
Drugs in loyalists communities are rampant as the loyalist paramilitaries are actively part of the problem and criminality, completely different scenario to republican areas I`m afraid. As I said a small bit of digging would tell you all you need to know.

Regardless none of these organisation have SFA to do with Sinn Féin, especially as the dissidents are against the GFA/peace process and have threatened to kill Martin McGuinness in the past.

 

[Stigbob]

There are a few criminal elements on the fringes that may be involved in drugs and may purport to be republicans but they are anything but. You have RAAD in Derry who are actively killing drug dealers in that city, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Action_Against_Drugs.
In the South there are the dissident republican groups who are in an active war with criminal gangs in Dublin in relation to the drugs trade, http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/iris...t-republicans-release-chilling-threat-7482871.
Drugs in loyalists communities are rampant as the loyalist paramilitaries are actively part of the problem and criminality, completely different scenario to republican areas I`m afraid. As I said a small bit of digging would tell you all you need to know.

Regardless none of these organisation have SFA to do with Sinn Féin, especially as the dissidents are against the GFA/peace process and have threatened to kill Martin McGuinness in the past.

RAAD are now part of the IRA. Sinn Fein has always been associated with the IRA. So those links you've supplied prove the opposite of what you seem to be claiming.

Terrorists sell drugs. Sometimes they kill or warn off other drug dealers, but that's all about controlling the supply the turf and the addicts. They claim they are doing it to stop the drug trade, but that's always been a convenient cover story even the Mafia used it.

 

[verminstar]

RAAD are now part of the IRA. Sinn Fein has always been associated with the IRA. So those links you've supplied prove the opposite of what you seem to be claiming.

Terrorists sell drugs. Sometimes they kill or warn off other drug dealers, but that's all about controlling the supply the turf and the addicts. They claim they are doing it to stop the drug trade, but that's always been a convenient cover story even the Mafia used it.

Sinn fein leaders used to be IRA leaders and have always been widely known as the political wing of the IRA...thats no secret round these parts even though they have tried to garner an air of respectibility about them...it hasnt worked and most of us still regard them as sinn fein/IRA. They cannot shake that image off, but oh boy have they tried...and failed.

And RAAD were always a part of the IRA but operating as something else. Their so called war on drugs was nothing more than exerting control in their own areas by targetting low level dealers and claiming some sort of moral high ground. The IRA were attempting to show the world they could keep their nose clean...so they used splinter groups who appeared to be seperate groupings to the outside world. It failed and we all saw through that years ago and now they dont even try to hide it.

Their war on the gangs in dublin...gang warfare trying to take control from gangsters who have no ties to the north at all. Fighting over territory control...thats all it is and thats all it ever was. Of course they will claim otherwise as it wont look good to their financial backers in the US, or their own homegrown support...they will attempt to paint the picture that loyalists are the worst scum of the earth and republicans are so clean, the wind whistles through their arseholes. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Im not saying some loyalists arent nasty...some loyalists are indeed very bad, I wont even try to argue otherwise. But republicans are, in my own opinion, worse on just about every level. They just a bit more organised...that really is the only difference in that both sides have blood on their hands.

A point to note here is that our estate is one the biggest east of the lagan...there are no joyriders on these streets, no dealers standing outside school gates selling to kids, no 16year old shot in both legs and left to bleed to death in some alleyway. Go west into republican areas and spot the difference...shouldnt take too long and I see ye drove there in a nice car? Oh dear...

Its true that there are a lotta drugs on the streets but heres a point that makes one think. Average street price fer a gram of weed here is about 15 quid because the supply comes from republican areas...where the average price per gram is significantly less. Most of it comes in from the south so...it aint loyalists bringing it in, they just customers who pay top whack hence those prices are passed along which means the street price is higher in loyalist areas.

Anyway...this has nothing whatsoever to do with stormont and the current political crisis. Even though Ive got him muted, Im still arguing with the guy and derailing my own thread...yay go me. Was just funny reading what ye quoted from him about loyalists being the worst of the worst and republicans being whiter than the driven snow...only in reality, that aint snow...and drugs are not rampant in this estate. I dare ye to come here and show me what I dont know, and if ye can find these rampant areas of concern, Ill happily wrap a tri colour around me and walk tthe shankhill road on the 12th july. They dont exist outside his imagination.