PvP ++ Circle-Strafing ++ Truesilver's Top Tips [Beginner's Guide + VR PvP Vid]

In Air Warrior 3, we used to call that the Rope a Dope. 109 pilots would get people to chase them into a vertical climb and then do a hammerhead and come back down guns blazing while their opponent floundered because they'd stalled. Very common against Spit and Zero pilots. They wanted to turn and burn and we made it a turning vertical fight. ;)

http://www.modelairplanenews.com/Me...e/images/BYF_08_03_0309_003_img001.jpg?ba8fbe

Spent some time looking to such tactics for ED wing combat inspiration, but as you have reinforced the majority of such tactics revolve around the use of airflow and/or positioning against the sun, neither of which really apply here...
 
In Air Warrior 3, we used to call that the Rope a Dope. 109 pilots would get people to chase them into a vertical climb and then do a hammerhead and come back down guns blazing while their opponent floundered because they'd stalled. Very common against Spit and Zero pilots. They wanted to turn and burn and we made it a turning vertical fight. ;)

http://www.modelairplanenews.com/Me...e/images/BYF_08_03_0309_003_img001.jpg?ba8fbe

Being really picky, thats not quite a rope a dope, in a rope a dope its a climbing tightening turn in which you can keep vis on your target the whole way through, until they stall out.

RopeaDope.jpg




I used to use it with great success online in FW190's and P51's in il2. But you could do it in most planes with enough e advantage.

Smart blue pilot split S's at point 3.
 
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Spent some time looking to such tactics for ED wing combat inspiration, but as you have reinforced the majority of such tactics revolve around the use of airflow and/or positioning against the sun, neither of which really apply here...

Yeah. My hope is that atmospheric worlds will open it up, but we'll see.
 
Being really picky, thats not quite a rope a dope, in a rope a dope its a climbing tightening turn in which you can keep vis on your target the whole way through, until they stall out.

http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr232/FS_Lewis/RopeaDope.jpg



I used to use it with great success online in FW190's and P51's in il2. But you could do it in most planes with enough e advantage.

What I was doing was a bit different than a classic rope a dope. I tend to think of that more as a zoom climb, but you're right.

[video=youtube;uDT_UDg38k8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDT_UDg38k8&list=PLqfRtdI87EHltnb-aRQnl4H0K-kYHQm6Q[/video]
 
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@Pipo Zelvelder, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I'll do my best to answer most of your questions although please note what I said earlier at Post No.28, which included:-

"About flying/thrusters generally, my impression is that you're still learning the six axes of motion in a spaceship / helicopter sim. You might consider just flying your ship conventionally for a few more hours, then return to circle-strafing with a bit more experience. I mean, I did more than a hundred hours just using pitch and roll to control my ship. I was hardly even using the throttle, so that's like two out of six axes, which is perfectly normal at first."

By way of further explanation at this stage, I'll just expand a bit on the six axes of motion:

Your pitch, yaw and roll inputs all make your ship turn without actually moving it in space. If you used one or all of these hanging in mid-air in a space station, you would stay in the same spot.

Your thrusters (forward/reverse, left/right, up/down) move your ship in space without turning it. If you used one or all of these inside a space station, you would eventually hit one of the walls.

Advanced manoeuvring in ED is based around combining both types of input.

In the case of a circle-strafe we're typically combining pitching up with thrusting down as a starting point. This makes the nose of the ship lift, whilst the entire ship moves downwards. So falling away beneath an opponent whilst at the same time still looking up at him.

Although as in the OP, there's still more to do to refine that starting point into an effective combat tactic.

OK, onto your questions (questions in italics, answers in bold):-

------------------------------------

The explanation: ###
That means choosing a ship with powerful lateral thrusters and, ideally, excellent pitch (Viper III has lateral but not pitch, Clipper has pitch but not lateral, FdL is pretty good at both, etc.)
### Lost me there already, how do i check these things or how do i know this?

You can see the official stats for all ships' max pitch, yaw, roll, speed and boost in my thread here:-

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...aw-for-Every-Ship-in-Game-Official-FDev-Stats

FDev haven't released up/down and left/right thruster info but there is some excellent date here from Cmdr Cliffson's testing. Check out the Lat 0-100(S) column in particular, which will tell you how quickly a ship can go from 0-100 using its lateral thrusters:-

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/182465-Pitch-Roll-and-Acceleration-for-(nearly)-Every


And, in a small ship, you should first be fitting Enhanced Drives: the Enhanced + g5 Dirty combo is what you see in the vid.
### Enhanced drive is also a Engineering thing? how can i combine these?

You can buy (yes, just buy) enhanced drives from Engineers including Felicity Farseer. Then you can mod those drives just like ordinary drives.

Finally, depending on weight sensitivity of your loadout, you may well want to be modding down and dropping down. My Courier in the vid had a D-rank FSD and various lightweight mods.
### modding down and dropping down????

This means fitting lighter weight modules than normal (e.g. 2 ton fuel tank not 8 ton fuel tank) and/or using lightweight engineer modifications where available to make modules weigh even less. Less mass means more manoeuvrability.

First steps: find your asteroid
If using the Training scenario, just jump straight in. In fact, do this first.
In the main game, fit a small fixed laser and a good distributor. This will allow you to ‘trace’ the practice target. (Don’t use a mining laser due to limited range.) If your distributor can handle it with one or two pips, choose a beam laser.
### not doable with gimballed?

Gimballed will be fine.

4 pips to engines.
Start thrusting down while pitching up.
### not sure I understand this: Down as in 'R' key and piching up as in "nose up" (in my case mouse up)??

See above, by 'thrusting down' I mean using the input bound to that - so the input that if you were hovering above something would make you move directly down onto it. Yes, pitching up means nose up.

What I hope some will draw from this guide is that forward and reverse thrust are the missing part of the jigsaw.
What follows, with FA-on, can be done with forward/reverse thrusters or throttle. With FA-off you can only use forward/reverse thrusters, not throttle. I advise using thrusters for both, therefore.
### totally lost here... Like in 'W' key and 'S' key?

Sorry I can't offhand recall the default inputs but I mean using the thruster keys that would make your ship move directly forwards/backwards.

So: return to the exercise. Counteract your drift away from the asteroid by using forward thrust. If you get too close, use reverse thrust. Practice, practice! Find the sweet spot.
### What goal am I "sweet spotting" to??

What you're trying to achieve is a combination of inputs that make your ship move around the asteroid, while still facing it, WITHOUT (MUCH) CHANGING DISTANCE FROM IT. That's basically the sweet spot - where you're not drifting away from it, and not crashing into it, just circling it but still facing it, at a constant distance.

---------------------------------------

Hope this helps, thanks for the interest in the thread and good luck!
 
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@Truesilver - has anyone done any empirical research into how the control system effects ship handling?

I have discovered that since upgrading from the TFlight to the T16000m that thruster response on my FDL is greatly improved (subjectively). With both sticks I have the thrusters mapped to the j-stick #1 top hat.

I'd also value your opinion on whether advanced flying techniques such as CS is even possible on low-mid range control systems? Personally I doubt I could have ever mastered the techniques on the TFlight as it simply didn't provide enough fine control.

OK so some caveats I used the word "personally" for a reason! And that by this time the outgoing TFlight was about a year old. However I would say the TFLight was not showing any signs of degradation and the difference to the T16000m is too large for wear to be a factor in my mind.

Simply put Pre-T16000m I was doing OK but from the very moment I hooked it up I made a step change in my ability to stay on the back of a target. Still a way to go but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel quite clearly.
 
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@Truesilver - has anyone done any empirical research into how the control system effects ship handling?

I have discovered that since upgrading from the TFlight to the T16000m that thruster response on my FDL is greatly improved (subjectively). With both sticks I have the thrusters mapped to the j-stick #1 top hat.

I'd also value your opinion on whether advanced flying techniques such as CS is even possible on low-mid range control systems? (...)

Hi Bill,

Personally I use KBM + pedals, specifically a Logitech Proteus Core mouse, an Apple Wired keyboard, and CH Pro Pedals.

This gives me pitch and roll on analogue on the mouse and the other four inputs on digital. As I've commented earlier in this thread I think that fine control of FA-off would benefit from more analogue but for more intermittent FA-off dogfighting, this seems fine and the benefit of digital is of course an immediate 100% force input.

I'm afraid I have insufficient experience of other control systems to be able to offer any other comment, although it's interesting that you think the actual response of your thrusters has been improved by a joystick change.

Can anyone else assist?
 
Apparently I have been "circle strafing" via pitch and up/down trusters for quite some time. This was one of the first techniques I stumbled across to aid in combat effectivness.

I discovered, on my own, that combining a pitch-up maneuver with down thrust helped bring targets back into my firing arcs, but would increase the range, where as pitching up with an up thrust closed distance and tightened the circling radius. Often times, I like to pitch up towards a target while applying downward thrust to bring them into view, then quickly switch to Up thrust to close distance and keep them in the line of fire via the decreasing turn radius.


When I moved on to an FDL, I learned to do the same while pitching down (only opposite).

Eventually, I combined that technique with FA OFF flying - I found this invaluable for fighting in large ships, and now I have begun employing F/R thrust with the FA OFF maneuvers and have been exceedingly happy with the results.

I do not have any bindings for L/R thrusters, am I leaving potential combat effectiveness on the table by not using these axis of motion? After all, can the same affect not be achieved via rolling 90*, and continuing the to maneuver via pitch and up/down thrust?
 
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@Truesilver - has anyone done any empirical research into how the control system effects ship handling?

I have discovered that since upgrading from the TFlight to the T16000m that thruster response on my FDL is greatly improved (subjectively). With both sticks I have the thrusters mapped to the j-stick #1 top hat.

I'd also value your opinion on whether advanced flying techniques such as CS is even possible on low-mid range control systems? Personally I doubt I could have ever mastered the techniques on the TFlight as it simply didn't provide enough fine control.

OK so some caveats I used the word "personally" for a reason! And that by this time the outgoing TFlight was about a year old. However I would say the TFLight was not showing any signs of degradation and the difference to the T16000m is too large for wear to be a factor in my mind.

Simply put Pre-T16000m I was doing OK but from the very moment I hooked it up I made a step change in my ability to stay on the back of a target. Still a way to go but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel quite clearly.

I use an xbox 360 controller. It is very possible to do it in 4 axis. If I made a binding for L/R thrust I could probably do it in six, with practice.
 
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I do not have any bindings for L/R thrusters, am I leaving potential combat effectiveness on the table by not using these axis of motion? After all, can the same affect not be achieved via rolling 90*, and continuing the to maneuver via pitch and up/down thrust?


Anyone have any input here?
 
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Anyone have any input here?

for your XBox controller? It's got loads of buttons, perhaps if you posted the existing set we could comment?

I do the roll and pitch. Always have and that is definitely a throwback to Elite in '84 which was pure keyboard control! But that depends on the yaw/lateral ability of the ship you re flying.
 
I do not have any bindings for L/R thrusters, am I leaving potential combat effectiveness on the table by not using these axis of motion? After all, can the same affect not be achieved via rolling 90*, and continuing the to maneuver via pitch and up/down thrust?

I understand the Xbox controller problem - Cmdr S!lk, founder of Adle's Armada, uses a controller and does not use L/R thrust, therefore. He's happy with it.

Indeed, one of the most successful and respected PvP pilots in the entire game is Cmdr BreakfastMelon, who does not use L/R thrust but instead does exactly what you say here.

However, exceptions may merely prove the rule ... Mr Melon has legendary aim and situational awareness and personally I would not be without both up/down and left/right thrust.

In particular, most of my manoeuvring involves using both at once. Getting technical, the combined input increases acceleration (with FA-off) or top speed (with FA-on). But more importantly I think it is more confusing for the opponent.

So I guess what I am saying is that it is possible to pilot at the highest level without L/R thrust ... but I still think for most players, your game will be improved with them.
 
If I am handicapping myself by not utilizing the L/R thrusters, then I'll make a binding and learn it. I just don't know if it's really worth it.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand the Xbox controller problem - Cmdr S!lk, founder of Adle's Armada, uses a controller and does not use L/R thrust, therefore. He's happy with it.

Indeed, one of the most successful and respected PvP pilots in the entire game is Cmdr BreakfastMelon, who does not use L/R thrust but instead does exactly what you say here.

However, exceptions may merely prove the rule ... Mr Melon has legendary aim and situational awareness and personally I would not be without both up/down and left/right thrust.

In particular, most of my manoeuvring involves using both at once. Getting technical, the combined input increases acceleration (with FA-off) or top speed (with FA-on). But more importantly I think it is more confusing for the opponent.

So I guess what I am saying is that it is possible to pilot at the highest level without L/R thrust ... but I still think for most players, your game will be improved with them.

Thank you. I guess it would behoove me then to set up a binding for it and learn it.
 
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Deleted member 115407

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What I hope some will draw from this guide is that forward and reverse thrust are the missing part of the jigsaw.
What follows, with FA-on, can be done with forward/reverse thrusters or throttle. With FA-off you can only use forward/reverse thrusters, not throttle. I advise using thrusters for both, therefore.
### totally lost here... Like in 'W' key and 'S' key?

Sorry I can't offhand recall the default inputs but I mean using the thruster keys that would make your ship move directly forwards/backwards.

Yeah, this is the only part I find confusing. Playing with kb+m here. How are you differentiating between forward/reverse thrusters and throttle here? The defaults for forward/reverse thrust are W/S, and using those keys applies throttle. Is there another way to engage these thrusters that doesn't apply throttle? Or am I just confusing the language?

Apologies if it has been explained elsewhere in the thread.
 
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