Why there "IS" artificial gravity in ED

[CMDR Dreamstate]

Metal magnets on boots is one way to stick to the floor.

At the end of the day, it is science-fiction - I'm sure Frontier can think of something fictional to make gravity exist on ships as it is supposed to be 3303.

Does it need to be explained now before we even have space legs?

I've seen this debate pop up several times in the forum over the years, and I'm still surprised people think gravity on ships shouldn't exist on ships because it isn't explained in the lore etc.. This is a video game and it is science-fiction, despite many things in the game being scientific.

I'll cite an example of this game using theory in place of fact: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38937141

"Event Horizon Telescope ready to image black hole"

The article is basically saying that they don't know what Sagittarius A* looks like, as up until now it is entirely theory, and we can only assume lots of things that Einsteins Theory of Relativity has explained - up until now, when, within a month, we'll hopefully find out if his theory explains the supposed black hole that exists in the centre of the galaxy (I suggest reading the article I linked, explained a lot better).

There are many things in this game that is solely based on theory and not fact - yet these are seemingly issues that are ignored and people are more focused on whether or not ships can have artificial gravity in 3303?

Players can hyper-jump to Sagittarius A* and back again within 24 hours. I think it is safe to assume ships could have artificial gravity, even if it isn't explained fully in the lore yet (if at all). Some suspension of belief is required for many stories, movies, and games - most of the time, people are happy with the theory behind an idea.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I'm not sure I am following what you are saying here. It's true to say that the pseudo-gravitational effect that one would feel in a Coriolis station is not produced in the same way as the gravity on Earth, but how does that make it incorrect to label it as 'artificial gravity'?

It really depends on the definition doesn't it. Word games...

When the lore writers say "There is no artificial gravity in Elite", they mean there is no man-made gravity that greats gravitational forces without the use of centrifugal forces such as in Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5 and many other such shows...

 

[Monk]

I think that "Made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural" is correct terminology for a situation where someone purposely spins a space station to produce the affect of gravity.

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You make a fair point, and I actually agree with that. But what other reason would they have for spinning the space stations in ED?


Also, another point: if it isn't artificial gravity, what is it? It's certainly not real gravity.

You do not produce the effect of gravity...you are not restricting mass containing particles in a gravity well. That is the effect of gravity. On a planet, you are feeling the force of every one of you particles being pulled and then you feel the normal force pushing up against your fall.

In a rigid rotating structure, you are not affected by a constant force pulling you back to the floor. When you jump, you don't get pulled back down, you maintain a constant velocity until you run into the curved floor. Technically, with enough friction or stopping force, you could stop your self "mid-air" and stay there indefinitely.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/149080/throwing-a-ball-in-a-rotating-space-station

There is no force comparable to gravity in a rotating structure.

 

[simo2003]

You do not produce the effect of gravity...you are not restricting mass containing particles in a gravity well. That is the effect of gravity. On a planet, you are feeling the force of every one of you particles being pulled and then you feel the normal force pushing up against your fall.

In a rigid rotating structure, you are not affected by a constant force pulling you back to the floor. When you jump, you don't get pulled back down, you maintain a constant velocity until you run into the curved floor. Technically, with enough friction or stopping force, you could stop your self "mid-air" and stay there indefinitely.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/149080/throwing-a-ball-in-a-rotating-space-station

There is no force comparable to gravity in a rotating structure.

Well, yes, you are right about that, and your example illustrates that well. That's why I used the term 'pseudo-gravitational effect' rather than 'artificial gravity'. It's an apparent force rather than a real one. Is it wrong to call this apparent force 'artificial gravity' when it produces similar effects? Similar, at least, in most regards, to the objects/persons experiencing those effects?

 

[Blackbeard]

I've learnt a lot in just this small time. [big grin] I appreciate the replies. However, I don't agree that I got the definition of the word wrong, that's just my opinion.

I do see the point that it isn't artificial because you aren't creating the perception of gravity, just putting the pieces in place as it were. But then you could say you are creating the availability for the perception of gravity to take place, in an unnatural and forced way. But, I think that's just the English language.

 

[Alaand]

How do people live on very small planets, moons etc with no artificial gravity? Low gravity has a dramatical impact on human body.

 

[simo2003]

But if you're experiencing 'a gravity-like effect', then isn't that creating the perception of gravity (or an apparent force that acts like it)? I think you can call that centrifugal force 'artificial gravity' because it's a gravity-like force created by artificial means.

 

[Monk]

Well, yes, you are right about that, and your example illustrates that well. That's why I used the term 'pseudo-gravitational effect' rather than 'artificial gravity'. It's an apparent force rather than a real one. Is it wrong to call this apparent force 'artificial gravity' when it produces similar effects? Similar, at least, in most regards, to the objects/persons experiencing those effects?

Artificial gravity is a fine term to use in the 21st Century, despite my misgivings about the terminology.

When talking about futuristic sci-fi games though, I think it is important to use the appropriate scientific definitions of the words.

For me, it is similar to saying there is no such thing a sucking. While that is a fine term for the psuedo force known as sucking, any of us physics folks will tell you that there is no suck, just a push from high pressure to low pressure.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

I think that "Made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural" is correct terminology for a situation where someone purposely spins a space station to produce the affect of gravity.

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You make a fair point, and I actually agree with that. But what other reason would they have for spinning the space stations in ED?


Also, another point: if it isn't artificial gravity, what is it? It's certainly not real gravity.

simulated garvity would be a proper term as it simulates gravity but isn't gravity.

 

[Blackbeard]

Artificial gravity is a fine term to use in the 21st Century, despite my misgivings about the terminology.

When talking about futuristic sci-fi games though, I think it is important to use the appropriate scientific definitions of the words.

For me, it is similar to saying there is no such thing a sucking. While that is a fine term for the psuedo force known as sucking, any of us physics folks will tell you that there is no suck, just a push from high pressure to low pressure.

As I said above after I edited my post, I do see the point that it isn't artificial because you aren't creating the perception of gravity, just putting the pieces in place as it were. But then you could say you are creating the availability for the perception of gravity to take place, in an unnatural and forced way. But, I think that's just the English language.

Would you agree that it's a language barrier, then?

 

[simo2003]

How do people live on very small planets, moons etc with no artificial gravity? Low gravity has a dramatical impact on human body.

Er, they don't? I'm going to assume you mean in-game. In that case, I wonder that as well. The same with all the outpost structures. I've assumed that the populations of these places must have quite the turnover as the negative effects of micro-gravity on humans are well documented.

 

[Zambrick]

When in a station in Elite dangerous, your CMDR will be experiencing centrifugal force - centrifugal force is not real and is only a perception - i.e artificial gravity (which I will explain). You surely feel the pressure when you accelerate in real life. Whether you attribute it to fictitious forces or other forces depends on your choice of the "reference frame" (vantage point).

From the viewpoint of your body's reference frame, which is not an inertial frame, there exist fictitious forces (inertia and/or centrifugal and/or Coriolis' force) that would push your body towards a seat in a car. With centrifugal forces, the force increases the closer it is.

If you are in a car when the brakes are jammed on, then you will feel pushed toward the front of the car. However, there is really no force pushing you forward. The car, since it is slowing down, is an accelerating, or non-inertial, frame of reference, and the law of inertia no longer holds if we use this non-inertial frame to judge your motion.

The ground is stationary and, therefore, is an inertial frame. Relative to the ground, when the brakes are applied, you continue with your forward motion, just like you should according to Newton's first law of motion. The situation is this: the car is stopping, you are not; so, you head out toward the dashboard. From your point of view in the car it seems like you have spontaneously been pushed forward. Actually, there is no force acting on you. The imagined force toward the front of the car is a fictitious force.

If a car is standing still and then accelerates, the car actually comes up from behind you, and, using the seat, the car pushes you forward. You may interpret this feeling as your body being pushed backward into the seat. Really, you are attempting to maintain your velocity of zero, and the seat is coming up from behind to push on you. There is no backward force. The imagined force is a fictitious force (artificial gravity). Fictitious forces arise in non-inertial, or accelerating, frames of reference.

In the words of a site cited below (putting it much better than I can): "In space, it is possible to create "artificial gravity" by spinning your spacecraft or space station. When the station spins, centrifugal force acts to pull the inhabitants to the outside. This process could be used to simulate gravity".

If you watch a time lapse of an ED station, you will see it spinning (which is creating the artificial gravity) and also orbiting the planet.

That is why in the International Space Station today there is no gravity - it is not spinning. To the stations in ED have been made to purposely spin (as far as I can tell) to create the artificial gravity.

Artificial gravity isnt possible in the relative universe. Space magic needs to be employed as it would be impossible for anything with a mass less than the earth to create a 1G gravity well. An artificial gravity well would play havoc on a ship and its surrounding not to mention you would need a stars worth of energy at all times to power it.


But this is just a game that has shields which would require the same power requirements.

Anywho, there is no artificial gravity in ED because its all based on acceleration around a central axis or direct thrust. Any other walking around can be done with magnetic boots.

 

[MagicTofu]

As I said above after I edited my post, I do see the point that it isn't artificial because you aren't creating the perception of gravity, just putting the pieces in place as it were. But then you could say you are creating the availability for the perception of gravity to take place, in an unnatural and forced way. But, I think that's just the English language.

Would you agree that it's a language barrier, then?

Not sure that's a language problem. Gravitational force is one of the four kinds of fundamental interactions. The force you need to apply to an object in a station (magnetic boots, welding your ship to the floor, superglue or whatever) produces a force of a different nature than gravitational force, but that will be perceived the same way as gravitational force.

The way I see it, 'artificial gravity' would be a force of the same nature as gravity (a centripetal force decreasing with distance to the source of the artificial gravity force) made by an artificial device.

 

[Kaocraft]

The problem is that you're not saying anything. You're describing something that everyone agrees with but you're using an odd and not commonly held definition of the term "artificial gravity" to make a point. Everyone already agrees with you about everything except that when you say "there IS artificial gravity," we initially think you're making some other argument. Elite has no gravity generating devices ala Star Trek or Star Citizen or BattleStar Galactica or Star Wars or almost every sci-fi that's ever been on TV or Film, where any surface can somehow become a "floor" through some technology which causes that surface to act as though it is the direction "down" on planet earth. Elite doesn't have that. Or maybe it *does* but everything about the way the game has been built so far seems to indicate that it *doesnt*.

 

[Kermit Laphroaig]

Metal magnets on boots is one way to stick to the floor.

At the end of the day, it is science-fiction - I'm sure Frontier can think of something fictional to make gravity exist on ships as it is supposed to be 3303.

Does it need to be explained now before we even have space legs?
----

Players can hyper-jump to Sagittarius A* and back again within 24 hours. I think it is safe to assume ships could have artificial gravity, even if it isn't explained fully in the lore yet (if at all). Some suspension of belief is required for many stories, movies, and games - most of the time, people are happy with the theory behind an idea.

It is explained in lore, and you actually just explained it yourself! The flight suit is magnetic and is smart enough to selectively make every step work as if it were simulating gravity (for the most part). They probably developed this tech because long term space flight and landing on planets regularly gets to be problematic.

One of the reasons the flight suit (currently) has a split in the toes is for grasping in emergencies, presumably.

 

[Monk]

As I said above after I edited my post, I do see the point that it isn't artificial because you aren't creating the perception of gravity, just putting the pieces in place as it were. But then you could say you are creating the availability for the perception of gravity to take place, in an unnatural and forced way. But, I think that's just the English language.

Would you agree that it's a language barrier, then?

I would say it is a limitation of the English language to easily differentiate things. We have to keep adding qualifiers and descriptors to make a point. At least the Germans got the right idea and just smash a sentence down to one word

 

[Jukelo]

Hate to be that guy, I've got DB on record saying

the only artificial gravity will be that created by centripetal force from rotation

But really OP, as was already said the general acceptance here is that artificial gravity refers to gravity plates or other such devices generating actual gravity - capable of pulling matter from a distance - by some space magic, although as was shown by DB's (confusing) comment I'm not sure there's any official terminology wrt what is artificial, what is simulated etc..
In any case that's all semantics so I'm out of here.

 

[Monk]

Hate to be that guy, I've got DB on record saying




But really OP, as was already said the general acceptance here is that artificial gravity refers to gravity plates or other such devices generating actual gravity - capable of pulling matter from a distance - by some space magic.

Oh, you!

FWIW, I'd consider DB an engineer of sorts...physicists often have to forgive engineers for their misuse of words

Engineers often have to forgive physicists for assuming the engineering issues right out of their equations...they especially hate it when a physicist says...by some miracle...lol

 

[Alaand]

Er, they don't? I'm going to assume you mean in-game. In that case, I wonder that as well. The same with all the outpost structures. I've assumed that the populations of these places must have quite the turnover as the negative effects of micro-gravity on humans are well documented.

Yes, in-game )

According to Elite's lore, people live on different types of stellar bodies permanently for generations. If no artificial gravity exists, we have 2 options then:
1. People will get a critical body/mind dysfunction and extinct
2. People will adopt at a genetic level, survive and give a rise to a new sentient, not humans

 

[drew]

Centrifugal force exists only within a rotating frame of reference, it's purpose is to make Newtonian mechanics workin such a reference.

Centrifugal force doesn't exist full stop, it is an engineering phantom. There is only inertia and centripetal force.

Centripetal force acting as constant acceleration on an object within the confines of another rotating object is not 'gravity' in any way shape or form, but has some similar properties in observation.

"Artificial Gravity" should be defined as a mechanism to create a localised gravitational field without the requirement for large amounts of mass in the vicinity. This is a staple of most SciFi films/tv (for budgetary reasons). It is not a feature of the ED universe, despite the (equally impossible) appearance of shields, FSD and hyperspace tech.

Ergo, there is no "Artificial Gravity" in the ED universe.

Cheers,

Drew.