General / Off-Topic The Price of Freedom

[OldSchoolPlayer]

Great examples and worthy reading fellow people...

If freedom is the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants,
will there ever be a place where "one size fits all rules" can apply without repression or fear of oppression?

 

[Ian Skippy]

Nothing is worth everything. But its cool to say it, so I'll ignore it.

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Great examples and worthy reading fellow people...

If freedom is the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants,
will there ever be a place where "one size fits all rules" can apply without repression or fear of oppression?

No. As such universal freedom is impossible by definition.

 

[beelbeebub]

Freedom is the ability to make my own choices without others telling me Im wrong, or that I need to do this or that.

a reasonable place to start.....

but (and there is always a "but").....

how do you reconcile the conflicts you hint at later in your post?

you mention paying taxes. but if you resent paying taxes how do things like roads, schools and the NHS get paid for?

you mention abiding by laws , what happens if the chap next door to you decides to start dumping asbestos on his land (upwind of you). It's his freedom to do what he wants. what about the chap driving after 15pints at 90mph down the local high street in a car with defective brakes?

society must have some common standards of behaviour. Is it ok to date a 17year old? is it ok to turn up to work after taking coke, weed, alcohol, caffeine or nicotine? Can I own a machine gun?

almost nobody will agree with all the greed standards. You might be happy that smoking weed is allowed, but unhappy that immigrants are allowed to settle. On the other hand somebody else might be happy that weed is banned and unhappy that immigrants can't settle.

the best we can expect is "living as free as its possible to be in this day and age while respecting the freedom of others".

it is impossible to have a situation where you get exactly what you want whilst someone else gets exactly what they want unless you want exactly the same things.

 

[beelbeebub]

Great examples and worthy reading fellow people...

If freedom is the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants,
will there ever be a place where "one size fits all rules" can apply without repression or fear of oppression?

that's fair enough, but would you support someone's right to call for jihad against the west and their right to act on their belief by blowing up a school bus?

I'm going assume no. yet in some parts of the world that would be a perfectly acceptable thing to say and do and calling for religious tolerance and acting to prevent the blowing up of a school bus would get you in trouble.

the freedom to say what you like may well be the freedom to say things that other people find offensive but there should always be red lines.

If I tell my boss to eff off and shove it up his hole, can I be surprised when he fires me?

 

[verminstar]

a reasonable place to start.....

but (and there is always a "but").....

how do you reconcile the conflicts you hint at later in your post?

you mention paying taxes. but if you resent paying taxes how do things like roads, schools and the NHS get paid for?

you mention abiding by laws , what happens if the chap next door to you decides to start dumping asbestos on his land (upwind of you). It's his freedom to do what he wants. what about the chap driving after 15pints at 90mph down the local high street in a car with defective brakes?

society must have some common standards of behaviour. Is it ok to date a 17year old? is it ok to turn up to work after taking coke, weed, alcohol, caffeine or nicotine? Can I own a machine gun?

almost nobody will agree with all the greed standards. You might be happy that smoking weed is allowed, but unhappy that immigrants are allowed to settle. On the other hand somebody else might be happy that weed is banned and unhappy that immigrants can't settle.

the best we can expect is "living as free as its possible to be in this day and age while respecting the freedom of others".

it is impossible to have a situation where you get exactly what you want whilst someone else gets exactly what they want unless you want exactly the same things.

Define freedom. If my neighbour dumps asbestos upwind of me and mine, he gets a knock on the door at 3 in the morning from a couple of burly chaps with baseball bats.

Some taxes have to be paid if other freedoms like my love of fast cars is to be indulged...no roads no fun after all. If I get caught speeding, I face consequences just like Mr fly tipping asbestos man faces. Those are accepted conditions to having as much freedom as one can get in this day and age.

Schools...see above.

Dating a 17yr old...mixture of consequences and local laws...16 is the legal age here so not seeing an issue here so long as no funny business. The consequences fer some guy dating my 17year old daughter however...see above with the burly guys at 3 in the morning.

Turning up fer work off me face...been there done that suffered the consequences.

Me smoking weed...thats my choice and Ive been to prison twice in the past fer it. I accept the consequences and still smoke every single day of my life because Im free to make that choice. Others are free to not like that choice, but I still make it anyway, to hell what anyone else thinks. I literally dont care.

Owning an illegal firearm...no comment.

There are many freedoms to be had...some have consequences, others do not. Total freedom is unrealistic, always was and always will be...its about the freedom to choose regardless of the consequences. Take brexit fer example...that was a freedom that many didnt want us to have because of the consequences. Then not respecting a freely made choice and demanding the decision be reversed because dumb people couldnt be trusted with such an important freedom apparently.

One cannot define freedom as it means different things to different people. To me, brexit was us breaking free as a nation...after all the arguments to the contrary, I still believe it was the right thing to do...I was free to make the choice and I used that freedom...and now fer the consequences ^

 

[Arry]

So the definition of the freedom that many desire; to be able to think, speak and do as you wish without persecution. Is just the same as Anarchy.

I think that independence would be a better quest to strive achieve. Be it financial, or otherwise.

 

[beelbeebub]

Define freedom. If my neighbour dumps asbestos upwind of me and mine, he gets a knock on the door at 3 in the morning from a couple of burly chaps with baseball bats.

Some taxes have to be paid if other freedoms like my love of fast cars is to be indulged...no roads no fun after all. If I get caught speeding, I face consequences just like Mr fly tipping asbestos man faces. Those are accepted conditions to having as much freedom as one can get in this day and age.

Schools...see above.

Dating a 17yr old...mixture of consequences and local laws...16 is the legal age here so not seeing an issue here so long as no funny business. The consequences fer some guy dating my 17year old daughter however...see above with the burly guys at 3 in the morning.

Turning up fer work off me face...been there done that suffered the consequences.

Me smoking weed...thats my choice and Ive been to prison twice in the past fer it. I accept the consequences and still smoke every single day of my life because Im free to make that choice. Others are free to not like that choice, but I still make it anyway, to hell what anyone else thinks. I literally dont care.

Owning an illegal firearm...no comment.

There are many freedoms to be had...some have consequences, others do not. Total freedom is unrealistic, always was and always will be...its about the freedom to choose regardless of the consequences. Take brexit fer example...that was a freedom that many didnt want us to have because of the consequences. Then not respecting a freely made choice and demanding the decision be reversed because dumb people couldnt be trusted with such an important freedom apparently.

One cannot define freedom as it means different things to different people. To me, brexit was us breaking free as a nation...after all the arguments to the contrary, I still believe it was the right thing to do...I was free to make the choice and I used that freedom...and now fer the consequences ^

now, let's say mr asbestos next door is a real mean sob with lots of mean friends. he shoots the men with bats feeds them to his pigs, pops you in your spine before setting fire to your house.

what do you do? you're clearly overmatched and most of your burly mates are either pig poop or laying low to avoid being pig poop. you're in a wheelchair and your house is a ruin.

freedom. to do what you want (like calling at 3am with a baseball bat) is freedom to be picked on by somebody bigger, meaner and better armed than you. effectively this is what warlords are. the biggest nastiest b'tard in the area. they're the ones who force you to grow opium poppies or watch your family be killed. they're the ones who take your 17 year old daughter at gun point and there is nothing you can do ablut it. you could try and flee to somewhere safe of course, but that assumes they will allow you in after your 2000 mile journey and not throw you out for being one of those muslim terrorists.

i'm not a "hard man", i'm not armed to the teeth, I don't know "burly men with base ball bats".

i'd like freedom from being picked on. I'd like it if somebody tries to intimidate me, for somebody to protect me. not because (as the right would say) I'm not man enough to protect myself, but because I'm smart enough to realise that no matter how nasty and mean I am, there will always be somebody nastier and meaner. if not now then maybe tomorrow or next month or next year. Even if I was to become the meanest, nastiest most feared man in the country, is that who I want to be?

which means we need laws for such a "somebody" to follow and apply fairly to all.

that may mean that some of those laws stop me doing things i'd like to do. that might mean I have to pay some taxes I'd rather not and see some of my money pay for things I don't like.

it's the price we pay to not be some sort of dystopian survival of the nastiest horror show.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Freedom for whom, freedom for some or freedom for all.

 

[Minonian]

Eternal vigilance?

So... You want to be a partisan who keep blowing up trainlines after the war is won? To be prudent is always a good thing, but you can't take this concept too far.

 

[Adept]

Freedom from what? It's an abstract concept on it's own.

 

[pippo]

£4.79 over here

 

[verminstar]

now, let's say mr asbestos next door is a real mean sob with lots of mean friends. he shoots the men with bats feeds them to his pigs, pops you in your spine before setting fire to your house.

what do you do? you're clearly overmatched and most of your burly mates are either pig poop or laying low to avoid being pig poop. you're in a wheelchair and your house is a ruin.

freedom. to do what you want (like calling at 3am with a baseball bat) is freedom to be picked on by somebody bigger, meaner and better armed than you. effectively this is what warlords are. the biggest nastiest b'tard in the area. they're the ones who force you to grow opium poppies or watch your family be killed. they're the ones who take your 17 year old daughter at gun point and there is nothing you can do ablut it. you could try and flee to somewhere safe of course, but that assumes they will allow you in after your 2000 mile journey and not throw you out for being one of those muslim terrorists.

i'm not a "hard man", i'm not armed to the teeth, I don't know "burly men with base ball bats".

i'd like freedom from being picked on. I'd like it if somebody tries to intimidate me, for somebody to protect me. not because (as the right would say) I'm not man enough to protect myself, but because I'm smart enough to realise that no matter how nasty and mean I am, there will always be somebody nastier and meaner. if not now then maybe tomorrow or next month or next year. Even if I was to become the meanest, nastiest most feared man in the country, is that who I want to be?

which means we need laws for such a "somebody" to follow and apply fairly to all.

that may mean that some of those laws stop me doing things i'd like to do. that might mean I have to pay some taxes I'd rather not and see some of my money pay for things I don't like.

it's the price we pay to not be some sort of dystopian survival of the nastiest horror show.

Id love to live in a perfect world too, but we dont. Ive never known life to be any other way and dont expect things to get magically better anytime soon...one learns the hard way not to hold onto silly childish dreams...those were beaten outta me long before most other kids stop believing in the tooth fairy.

The question asked by the op, what is freedom? Freedom is having the ability to choose...one can choose to break the law, but one accepts the risk of consequences if they caught. There are a great many things I would have no hesitation in doing were it not fer the law which would throw some fairly heavy consequences my way...and that is exactly the way it should be. Its upto me to make the choice whether to do it or not...thats freedom. Wanting a world with no law and no consequence...that is anarchy. I dont want anarchy, therefore my choice is to respect the laws of what I believe is right and wrong...more or less.

Its like democracy. Give people the right to vote, and ye give them the freedom to make a choice...take away the vote or deny it, and we no longer live in a democratic state. That means we are not free. Its a fairly simple concept Im sure ye would agree? Or would ye prefer anarchy and call that freedom instead?

Tis the price we pay fer the freedom of speech...not everything is gonna be sunshine n roses but its still a freedom that many before us died to protect...lest we forget. Sadly, it appears many have ^

 

[metatheurgist]

So... You want to be a partisan who keep blowing up trainlines after the war is won? To be prudent is always a good thing, but you can't take this concept too far.

I don't think eternal vigilance implies violence, just that you don't stand by and let your freedoms be taken away by an orange clown who's starting to suppress the press, for example.

 

[beelbeebub]

The question asked by the op, what is freedom? Freedom is having the ability to choose...one can choose to break the law, but one accepts the risk of consequences if they caught. There are a great many things I would have no hesitation in doing were it not fer the law which would throw some fairly heavy consequences my way...and that is exactly the way it should be. Its upto me to make the choice whether to do it or not...thats freedom. Wanting a world with no law and no consequence...that is anarchy. I dont want anarchy, therefore my choice is to respect the laws of what I believe is right and wrong...more or less.

although I'd point out that everyone everywhere has the choice to abide by or break the local laws (it just may get you stoned to death for holding hands in public) I fully agree about no laws = anarchy being a "bad thing".

Its like democracy. Give people the right to vote, and ye give them the freedom to make a choice...take away the vote or deny it, and we no longer live in a democratic state. That means we are not free. Its a fairly simple concept Im sure ye would agree? Or would ye prefer anarchy and call that freedom instead?

i'd say there is a difference between individual freedom (right to live your life with the minimum of restrictions compatible with society) and societal freedom (the level of input individuals have in deciding those laws).

democracy is not to be confused with freedom. democracy is merely a method for picking some of the ruling class. it does not ultimately lead to more individual freedom. take turkey, which was (is) a democracy but individual freedoms have been eroded. the cliché example is pre war Germany, Hitler was democratically elected and all the powers he accrued were voted to him by the people in referendums and elections. yet individual freedoms were reduced.

Tis the price we pay fer the freedom of speech...not everything is gonna be sunshine n roses but its still a freedom that many before us died to protect...lest we forget. Sadly, it appears many have ^

again freedom of speech is not the be all and end all.

there must be limits. how can the freedom of (say) a black person be protected when people are putting up posters and giving speeches saying they are sub human and it's ok to lynch them?

how can women's freedom be protected when famous and powerful people say it's ok to grab them by their lady bits?

how can the freedom of children be protected if people say that it's ok for an older man to have a sexual relationship with a 13 year old?

 

[Mysturji]

Only 2 things are sacred: Life and freedom. Because nothing else is worth killing or dying for.
[video=youtube;G3JnexsN4oc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3JnexsN4oc[/video]

 

[Mysturji]

... freedom of speech is not the be all and end all...

No, it's the beginning. When that one goes, the others will soon follow, which is why it must be defended at every turn.

Freedom of speech does not include incitement to violence. There is a big difference between saying "I don't like you" or "I don't like that group of people" and saying "You should be killed" or "They should all be shot". Freedom of speech means the ability to voice opinions and thoughts without fear of being arrested.

In other words, you ("you" in the general sense: not you or anyone else personally) have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to express it, just as I have a right to tell you how stupid/wrong/hateful it is.

In other words, how will we identify the stupid, hateful & wrong people unless we hear them condemn themselves with their own words?

 

[Boomer Kay]

Only 2 things are sacred: Life and freedom. Because nothing else is worth killing or dying for.

Eh.. when you're dead, you have neither.

Life .. worth living for?
Freedom .. worth letting go of your "self" to attain it?

 

[lysan]

First you have to define freedom. Freedom for whom and to do what? I would say that in this modern world, freedom is a myth.

Agree, freedom to me is most likely not the same as it is to someone else in other parts of the world.

Edit:

free·dom
ˈfrēdəm/Submit
noun
the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.
"we do have some freedom of choice"
absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.
"he was a champion of Irish freedom"
synonyms: independence, self-government, self-determination, self-rule, home rule, sovereignty, nonalignment, autonomy; democracy
"revolution was the only path to freedom"
the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved.
"the shark thrashed its way to freedom"
synonyms: liberty, liberation, release, deliverance, delivery, discharge; More

Self sustainability, the right to produce your own food, water, electrical power (that is actually not possible in many countries)
The right to defend yourself and your property.
The right to vote for the Government representatives.
The right to non partisan education
The right to a clean environment.

Everything else goes into these categories.

 

[Cydramech]

Freedom is nothing more than being free of domination, to be responsible solely for yourself. It is life, so what is life worth? To kill for. If you're not willing to kill those that mean you harm and if you're willing to take from others that is not yours, you don't deserve freedom.

 

[Minonian]

I don't think eternal vigilance implies violence, just that you don't stand by and let your freedoms be taken away by an orange clown who's starting to suppress the press, for example.

Same thing, and you really missed the point. Viligance is necessary, but if you take this concept too far than this is what going to cost freedom. Just think about Policorrectness... How much freedom we lost just because we are not allowed to speak up our mind?

And all of this in the name of Vigilantly protect the rights and freedom of minority, womens and such! This is Viligance? No... This is zealotry! Suppressing the zealots, is really that bad?

But you are right about one thing! It's easy to go too far, in the name of stop some zealots. This danger is always there! And to find the balance keep in the right way, when you begin dragged from both sides? Really hard!