General / Off-Topic Incident At Westminster

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
Just as i said... The other end! Give everyone gun, and the safety only gets worst! But an area like the g Parliament must be protected, and it's protection must be taken more seriously.

It is already heavily protected and I'm sure reviews will take place as a result of this attack. Note that as soon as this person penetrated the grounds or parliament, he was dead within seconds. He did manage to murder one police officer which is a tragedy, and I'm sure changes will be made to protect against that in future. However, whether those changes call for every police officer in the UK to be armed is another question.
 

Deleted member 115407

D
Just as i said... The other end! Give everyone gun, and the safety only gets worst! But an area like the g Parliament must be protected, and it's protection must be taken more seriously.

I dunno. I live in the largest city, in one of the gun-friendliest states in the US, and things are pretty good.
 
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Minonian

Banned
No offense! :) But this is what you call heavy protection? [weird]

Well... You learn soon enough, if not after the first attack against a high shock value target, than the second, or third. Or not at all! But in this case, the number of victims going to increase without reason.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Seemingly not... Because where it mattered the only one present was unarmed. Firearm or at least a taser / shocker or baton, pepper spray? Did he had it?

You know what? I worked for years as guardsman. And altrough im good n hand to hand combat, i always carried with me a knife and short stick. + pepper spray. You just can't do this kind of work unarmed!

It's from the specials (volunteer police) website but here - http://policespecials.com/equip.html explains the standard equipment, which includes a baton and a pepper spray or similar. Some carry tazers as well, and 'armed' police have firearms. As quoted way above, these are police, not paramilitaries. Not routinely carrying guns is rather important to both how the police are perceived in the UK, and how they behave. As for this poor man killed in the course of his job, I do not know what he was equipped with. Assuming he had a stab-proof vest (which is standard) then the effectiveness of them clearly needs to be looked at.
 

Minonian

Banned
I dunno. I live in one of the largest cities, in one of the gun-friendliest states in the US, and things are pretty good.

Until you don't go to the wrong place on the wrong time, where some whacko going to thing it's a good idea to give out his frustration with the help of a firearm...
 
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Deleted member 115407

D
Until you don't go to the wrong place on the wrong time, where some whacko going to thing it's a good idea to give out his frustration with the help of a firearm...

And I have my firearm... the great equalizer, especially for women. You don't have to be stronger than your attacker. You just have to be strong enough to pull the trigger.

Funny how these kind of attackers tend not to attack people who are well-armed.
 
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And I have my firearm... the great equalizer.

Funny how these kind of attackers tend not to attack people who are well-armed.

On the flip side, you are just as susceptible to surprise attack, be it gun or knife or baseball bat.

Unless, wacko is a marksman at range...but wackos tend not to be good at much.

Also, we don't just have murderers walking about at all times.
 
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Minonian

Banned
On the flip side, you are just as susceptible to surprise attack, be it gun or knife or baseball bat.

Unless, wacko is a marksman at range...but wackos tend not to be good at much.

Also, we don't just have murderers walking about at all times.

And the other possible whacko civilians running around the shooter with gun, and presumably draw it, because the other also using it? Just makes the situation worst... A nice big shootout in the middle of a civilian full area?

Good recipe for a bloodbath!
 

Deleted member 115407

D
On the flip side, you are just as susceptible to surprise attack, be it gun or knife or baseball bat.

Unless, wacko is a marksman at range...but wackos tend not to be good at much.

That's why it's important to maintain vigilance, even when life seems relatively peaceful.

You see the counter argument alot in gun debates - that people shouldn't have to be vigilant all the time.

Should is a cute concept. Should is what we would "like" to be. Better to focus on what "is", and what "is" is that we are all vulnerable. Being prepared helps to make us less vulnerable.

- - - Updated - - -

And the other possible whacko civilians running around the shooter with gun, and presumably draw it, because the other also using it? Just makes the situation worst... A nice big shootout in the middle of a civilian full area?

Good recipe for a bloodbath!

Which has never, ever happened.

It's hyperbole. Even in places that are very gun-friendly, many people have an aversion to carrying firearms. There are few, if any, gun-friendly places wherein "everyone" is armed.
 
And the other possible whacko civilians running around the shooter with gun, and presumably draw it, because the other also using it? Just makes the situation worst... A nice big shootout in the middle of a civilian full area?

Good recipe for a bloodbath!

Look, this will be the last I say of it...I didn't want to get into a gun discussion.

There is paranoia from both sides of the issue here. Guns won't magically make crime go away. Removing guns won't magically make crime go away.

If people want to be armed, I think that is their right. If people don't want weapons on their property, they should be able to request that and have it be respected. A gun is not guaranteed to save you...as is the nature of the weapon, it kills faster than reflexes.

Anyway, police being armed in London wasn't a guarantee to stop an assailant in a vehicle. Though it might have. If the people of London prefer to not have guns among their police, there is nothing wrong with that.
 
On the flip side, you are just as susceptible to surprise attack, be it gun or knife or baseball bat.

People watch way too many hero flicks and think that's how it works.

The attacker with the surprise on his side always has the clear advantage.
Your instincts work against you. Sometimes even your training works against you. That's why there's special training courses for SWAT teams, personal guards etc. It's a different scenario from being a regular police officer, or being someone who shoots a bullet or two at the range once a week.

There was a case here, where 2 armed police got called to a mental hospital, because they couldn't calm down a patient. 2 Officers arrived. The patient managed to wrestle a gun from one of them, shoot around and injure one officer and some nurses.
In Paris they placed armed military at important points. Led that incident at the De Gaulle Airport where an attacker nearly wrestled the rifle of one of the soldiers and had to be shot by the others.
And let's not even talk about that security area shooting in Florida.

However you do it, there's a chance it will achieve exactly the opposite of what you're trying to achieve. ^^

Just stay calm and mindful and you can avoid much of harm that's in your way.

Usually things go well: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39380527
 
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Probably. It doesn't take much to make it a terrorist act.

Sure it does. It takes the act falling under the definition of terrorism. If we start defining terrorism as "something bad that happens" (not saying you've done that but just creating an example) then the term loses it's usefulness.

Let's define terrorism as being something that fulfills all of these requirements:

1. An attack on civilian infrastructure or civilian people.

2. By a stateless organization

3. Intended to instill fear in the local population.

4. So that population might pressure their respective government or military to behave in a manner which benefits the political, social, or cultural aims of the terrorists.

We don't have that here. We have, at best, 1 and maybe 3, maybe. 2 and 4 are certainly not present. A clueless idiot with a knife and a car, not a terror cell.

What's the difference? Not all senseless murder is terrorism, but some or all terrorism I think qualifies as senseless murder. It doesn't seem to work.

Not senseless. Directed and sometimes successful. The Mujaheddin in Afghanistan managed to evict the Soviet Union. The attacks on 9/11 goaded the USA into two separate invasions and destabilized an absolutely enormous area of the Middle East. Or the campaign the KLA waged against the Milošević government in the former Yugoslavia.

Terrorism has never been more successful than it is in the modern era. Thanks to non-stop media coverage and the fact politicians immediately reach for the microphone if they think they can get a bit of good publicity, even relatively minor events like this become major international news with multiple world leaders making statements and pundits brought in for comment.

This guy killed more people by falling asleep.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34677791

Why is nobody terrified of rubbish trucks now? Why is nobody discussing the threat of rubbish truck Jihadis and where it will happen next? Why is no nutcase pundit on youtube ranting that rubbish be banned and rubbish truck drivers sent back to where they came from?

Because the story wasn't "sexy" enough for outrage, non-stop news, clickbait, and politicians grabbing some airtime for their popularity or for their cause. If this attack were treated the same as the rubbish truck story we'd not even be thinking about terrorism right now.

The goal is political; the means chosen to achieve it is causing fear by killing random innocent people, but it seems better at strengthening the resolve of people and causing their governments to fight harder. See the wars after 9/11, and ISIS is shrinking last I heard.

ISIS aren't really a terrorist organization. They're not merely committing acts of brutal violence, but they're also providing health coverage, traffic control, jobs and training, running schools, teaching people how to manufacture bombs out of household items, and running an absolutely horrific campaign of suppression that is as equally bad as anything the world has ever seen.

Because of that I'd say they're more of an insurgency or rogue state at this point. I'd say their "statehood", as tenuous as it is, disqualifies them from terrorism. If they really did do anything like this it'd be more of an act of war.
 
Let's define terrorism as being something that fulfills all of these requirements:

...

2. By a stateless organization

...

ISIS aren't really a terrorist organization. They're not merely committing acts of brutal violence, but they're also providing health coverage, traffic control, jobs and training, running schools, teaching people how to manufacture bombs out of household items, and running an absolutely horrific campaign of suppression that is as equally bad as anything the world has ever seen.

Because of that I'd say they're more of an insurgency or rogue state at this point. I'd say their "statehood", as tenuous as it is, disqualifies them from terrorism. If they really did do anything like this it'd be more of an act of war.

I disagree with the requirement that terrorism is by a stateless organization. I think a full-fledged and internationally recognized state can participate in terrorism. Terrorism is an action.

I think ISIS participates in terrorism. And I think refusing to classify ISIS as a state is mostly a convenient way to avoid "red tape" when destroying them. Which I'm okay with.
 
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Or cool. Always had weapon with me never used, or drawn! Hell, i did not even told no one what i have (element of surprise) But you need to have it, in case some more serious breaks out.

If something more serious breaks out, there's police everywhere.
They're better trained, better equipped and have backup (and compared to me, they're also usually younger).
 

Minonian

Banned
If something more serious breaks out, there's police everywhere.

It does not going to help me, when i fighting possibly for my life, and neither makes possible to do my duty, and protect the values and peoples entrusted to me.

BTW? Out of curiosity, there is something off topic what's in my mind for a while. What do you think about peoples, whom can't talk for him / her selfs and let the others do this?
 
It does not going to help me, when i fighting possibly for my life, and neither makes possible to do my duty, and protect the values and peoples entrusted to me.

The theoretical idea that the police officer would not have been harmed, if he had a gun is a rather theoretical one.
See examples above.
If you don't practice self defense and such things regularly, you don't actually know how you're going to react in a "fog of war" situation. The usual reaction time for the "fight or flight" decision is already too long.
I f.ex. hate security who think they can make me comply by intimidating me, because they think they're in a better position or have concealed weapons. Looking like a fuzzy harmless slob is part of my charm (and speaking a few accent free sentences of "eastern" .. from russian to bulgarian .. while looking totally german).
The more professional guys always like to deescalate. :)

BTW? Out of curiosity, there is something off topic what's in my mind for a while. What do you think about peoples, whom can't talk for him / her selfs and let the others do this?
Do what? Speaking for them?
 
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