Season 3 and beyond

[VR StarLightPL]

In our regional thread I've theorised some about whether I would want space legs first or atmo-landings first. I can't translate that now (@work glancing on the forums between code rebuilds ;-) ) but the more we tried to come up with planetary gameplay, the more the lack of space legs proved to be a barrier to that. IMHO those two things are quite intertwinned.

As a food for thought however, I did come up with the idea for stations based spacelegs content, as fitting in things which are not present in the game and we have to resort to another websites and third party apps. Integrating eddb.io functionality as an Galactic Info Center you can go to on stations for example. Space bars as social hubs etc. I will add more thought snacks as I have time.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

In our regional thread I've theorised some about whether I would want space legs first or atmo-landings first. .

just to say something different.. i would swap both of the above for a fully fleshed out npc ships crew system, along with npc wingmates, missions to use them and also find them in and the RPG elements associated with them in the DDF in a heartbeat.

not sure how FD could sell that tho as most probably expect that for free (with good reason)

 

[Bobbydylan]

Apology not required - It's easy to mis-understand blobs of hastely written text in a forum


With the list of first person gameplay you've listed there... I'd see many of those offering the hurdles of:-
1) Being interesting, not just resulting in point and click gameplay - eg: EVA repairs? Why do that rather than using the current mechanics? And indeed if you do, how will it be a worthwhile gameplay experience? How will it not just end up being point at something and hold Mouse 1 for 10 seconds? How would walking out of your ship, across a station, to a black market, not become tiresome compared to achieving the same immediately from the cockpit?
2) Not creating huge technical issues sponging huge amounts of development time - The moment you need to create any sort of interaction/gameplay/combat/cause & effect in first person there's (IMHO) a huge technical challenge there, especially if you wish to do it at a level that ultimately merits its inclusion. IMHO this would require a huge technical development.

With my noddy understanding of coding and the like, for me simple atmospheric modelling in ED would seem more achievable than implementing first person and more importantly making it worth while?

While I agree that It'd be easier to add some new ground textures, changing the blue glide effect to a yellow reentry one, and some atmospheric influences to the ship... I just don't see the point of it. Elite already suffers from a lack of deep game-play mechanics, I don't see more places for the existing rather mundane game-play to take place as a worthy investment for most players. Sure, exploration would be slightly more interesting, but I'd rather exploration get a total overhaul, like was detailed in the "Year of Elite Concepts" thread.

Now, I understand the concern that boring FP gameplay would be boring. But there are plenty of examples of how to do it wrong (X Rebirth) and plenty of examples of how to do it right (Hellion, Alien Isolation). For the record, I don't believe that anything you can already do in the cockpit should be removed and replaced with the chore of walking around a station.
Ambulation should add more to existing functions. Right now, when you open the mission board it only brings you 20 mission from random factions. That should stay, but If I only want to see 20 missions from the faction I want to help (Sirus corp, you b*stards), I can disembark and go to their offices and get 20 missions from only them. The black market also needs more flavour in Elite. Going to meet shady contacts would be a great opportunity for taking black missions, or buying illegal goods.

As for the boring, click a button on a thing, I think repairing micro leaks to increase hull % (and canopy %) would be invaluable to players on deep exploration runs. Who doesn't want to climb into thos crashed anacondas and find cool stuff?

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

While I agree that It'd be easier to add some new ground textures, changing the blue glide effect to a yellow reentry one, and some atmospheric influences to the ship... I just don't see the point of it. Elite already suffers from a lack of deep game-play mechanics, I don't see more places for the existing rather mundane game-play to take place as a worthy investment for most players. Sure, exploration would be slightly more interesting, but I'd rather exploration get a total overhaul, like was detailed in the "Year of Elite Concepts" thread.

Now, I understand the concern that boring FP gameplay would be boring. But there are plenty of examples of how to do it wrong (X Rebirth) and plenty of examples of how to do it right (Hellion, Alien Isolation). For the record, I don't believe that anything you can already do in the cockpit should be removed and replaced with the chore of walking around a station.
Ambulation should add more to existing functions. Right now, when you open the mission board it only brings you 20 mission from random factions. That should stay, but If I only want to see 20 missions from the faction I want to help (Sirus corp, you b*stards), I can disembark and go to their offices and get 20 missions from only them. The black market also needs more flavour in Elite. Going to meet shady contacts would be a great opportunity for taking black missions, or buying illegal goods.

As for the boring, click a button on a thing, I think repairing micro leaks to increase hull % (and canopy %) would be invaluable to players on deep exploration runs. Who doesn't want to climb into thos crashed anacondas and find cool stuff?

http://cdn.idigitaltimes.com/sites/...mbed/public/2015/11/11/rey-star-destroyer.jpg

Agree +rep if i could again

And as for the "click button to use" mechanic.... whats wrong with that?

Would people rather have each finger bound to a key and end up with a game like QWOP (Google it and try play)


All of Hellion is basically "Press F to use" and that game is fun as hell to EVA and do Space Legs'y things in

I bought Hellion on its early access release, and ended up playing like 15 hours that weekend.... During my first session, I was having so much fun that the thing that brought me out of the game was realizing that sunlight was creeping through my blinds and the sound of birds chirping that signaled it was 6AM

And all I was doing was flying to derelicts and scavenging stuff, repairing my ship etc

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

plenty of examples of how to do it right (Hellion, Alien Isolation). For the record, I don't believe that anything you can already do in the cockpit should be removed and replaced with the chore of walking around a station.
Ambulation should add more to existing functions. Right now, when you open the mission board it only brings you 20 mission from random factions. That should stay, but If I only want to see 20 missions from the faction I want to help (Sirus corp, you b*stards), I can disembark and go to their offices and get 20 missions from only them. The black market also needs more flavour in Elite. Going to meet shady contacts would be a great opportunity for taking black missions, or buying illegal goods.

i think you just read my mind.... cant argue with any of the above...... hellion and alien isolation in ED would be mind blowing.

add into that the ability to fine tune the missions we are offered by meeting with faction rep directly and meeting the shady rep to get those missions "not suitable for the mission board"....

hell yeah. (could even have new mission types which have to be gotten on the down low - terrorist missions etc)

 

[Bobbydylan]

Agree +rep if i could again

And as for the "click button to use" mechanic.... whats wrong with that?

Would people rather have each finger bound to a key and end up with a game like QWOP (Google it and try play)


All of Hellion is basically "Press F to use" and that game is fun as hell to EVA and do Space Legs'y things in

I bought Hellion on its early access release, and ended up playing like 15 hours that weekend.... During my first session, I was having so much fun that the thing that brought me out of the game was realizing that sunlight was creeping through my blinds and the sound of birds chirping that signaled it was 6AM

And all I was doing was flying to derelicts and scavenging stuff, repairing my ship etc

Totally agree. The only thing I dont like about Hellion is the bugs. I've gotten to a total failure state a number of times.

 

[killminster]

Stuff

more stuff

You know what I think you might have just about convinced me on spacelegs having more gameplay value than adding more planets to land on. But I would still rather have what we already have expanded upon and improved than just get another set of placeholder game mechanics that end up being superfluous.

And moreover I don't think FDEV are in a position to deliver anything other than a very basic and unsatisfactory, barely more than proof of concept implementation of spacelegs right now or in the foreseeable future. Mainly due to Sandy's comments at PAX, which I think supports the notion that when and if it does happen they want to do it wholesale rather than piecemeal.

 

[Cosmos]

It seems like everyone is waiting for spacelegs and atmospheric landings. I hope that S3 brings us some kind of galaxy wide storyline of consequence. I know Sol is out of bounds for this idea (or is it?) but I think I'd like to see war bring the destruction of spaceports and systems. Imagine jumping into a system and there being nothing but rubble and a cloud of expanding gas, or being caught in a thargoid nova bomb and having to hyperspace out of the system or die. I imagine smaller bombs taking out planets or moons, or smaller just laying waste to them, or half melting them. With the customisation of systems with stellar forge I'm sure this is possible. Are we all waiting for a larger thargoid war that changes things?

I happen to think that what people really want is a much more improved and deeper game experience beyond the present one dimensional tedium. A few planets to land on with atmospheres or wondering around interacting with brain dead bots isn't going to cut it.

The potential for this game and where it could truly excel is re player emergent content, if Frontier offered that in combination with their own content I reckon we'd could be looking at a masterpiece.

Instead, I suspect they'll continue on in the same way, catering to a carebear style of gameplay. Which might be great for the peeps at the old folks home who enjoy that but its never going to result in a stellar game.

Frankly I just don't see things moving beyond the crying griefer wolf mentality.

Just my opinion.

 

[NMS]

I happen to think that what people really want is a much more improved and deeper game experience beyond the present one dimensional tedium. A few planets to land on with atmospheres or wondering around interacting with brain dead bots isn't going to cut it.

The potential for this game and where it could truly excel is re player emergent content, if Frontier offered that in combination with their own content I reckon we'd could be looking at a masterpiece.

Instead, I suspect they'll continue on in the same way, catering to a carebear style of gameplay. Which might be great for the peeps at the old folks home who enjoy that but its never going to result in a stellar game.

If I were to paint a picture of the game, it really would be that.

Unfortunately I also very much doubt that something will change in the future as long as it's the same people working on the game.

 

[davedf]

In my opinion mattered, I would stop season 3, shut down development on ED, review the game design mistakes and ensure there was a clear vision of what game Elite should be, and then reuse the exiting game assets to release an Eliteangerous 2
(or whatever marketing wanted to call it) as a clean sheet.

The badly thought out design decisions made during the Horizons season are building up into a significant debt, that is hampering the future development of the game.

 

[Enderby]

In my opinion mattered, I would stop season 3, shut down development on ED, review the game design mistakes and ensure there was a clear vision of what game Elite should be, and then reuse the exiting game assets to release an Eliteangerous 2
(or whatever marketing wanted to call it) as a clean sheet.

The badly thought out design decisions made during the Horizons season are building up into a significant debt, that is hampering the future development of the game.

And that's church

 

[NeilF]

In my opinion mattered, I would stop season 3, shut down development on ED, review the game design mistakes and ensure there was a clear vision of what game Elite should be, and then reuse the exiting game assets to release an Eliteangerous 2
(or whatever marketing wanted to call it) as a clean sheet.

The badly thought out design decisions made during the Horizons season are building up into a significant debt, that is hampering the future development of the game.

Can't see that happening, but I'd concur a lot of very questionable choices have been made over the past two years... It all seemed to start well, but then Powerplay was released, and apart from the technical glory of planetary landings I'm hard pressed to think of anything significant that seemed a good move?!

 

[VR StarLightPL]

EDIT: The post by DB warning of no DX10 and 32bit support (six months ago), seems to maybe backup the need for high visual requirements for more complex planetary visuals in Season 3?

It's probably more down to earth to simply cut maintenance and production costs of not having to either cater to the lowest common denominator or simply not maintaining three implementations at once. DirectX is not even near any of my areas of expertise but I would suspect the framework gets easier to use and more powerful with each major release (conveniently ignoring the elephant that was the false start of DX12, anyhow, Vulkan FTW! ;-) )

In my opinion mattered, I would stop season 3, shut down development on ED, review the game design mistakes and ensure there was a clear vision of what game Elite should be, and then reuse the exiting game assets to release an Eliteangerous 2
(or whatever marketing wanted to call it) as a clean sheet.

The badly thought out design decisions made during the Horizons season are building up into a significant debt, that is hampering the future development of the game.

Many people on this forum speculate they're doing just that. And yes on the technical debt, but I saw bigger debts being paid during the course of my career. It is painful though, and doesn't bring money in the short term investment, but recoups on maintenance costs and new features implementation. We can only wait and see. PS: The name you're looking for is Elite: Deadly, as rumour is they have that trademarked.

apart from the technical glory of planetary landings I'm hard pressed to think of anything significant that seemed a good move?!

I feel the same. Planetary landings were the bright highlight of the horizon season. Also do not underestimate the significance of first contact, even given its scripted nature and effectively being a cutscene. As for the rest... I dabbled in PP a bit with folks who spent a year playing it, and if it weren't for the community (player emergent content FDev, take notes...) the whole ordeal was incredibly tedious. Almost unplayable outside a large player group too. RNGineers was a great idea on paper, but got marred by grind, randomness and poor execution. The rest of the season feel like cheap bolt ons I won't even comment on. Good that they did improve the external cam and made it possible to steer the ship while in it. It will generate more player emergent content in the form of YT vids and stunning stills. Should have been made ages ago though.

God I hate waiting.

 

[davedf]

Can't see that happening, but I'd concur a lot of very questionable choices have been made over the past two years... It all seemed to start well, but then Powerplay was released, and apart from the technical glory of planetary landings I'm hard pressed to think of anything significant that seemed a good move?!

No, I don't see it happening either.

I hope that nothing in season 3 beyond the first release is pre-announced, or if it is, then only in the very vaguest terms.

One of the biggest problems with Horizons is that they promised stuff they did not have the time or resources to deliver properly, so they delivered cut down implementations [ that allowed them to tick a box, but ] which undermined the core idea of the game.

At the end of Horizons we have:
- Credits mean nothing, except to new players (and even to them only for a short while)
- NPCs mean nothing - to engineered super ships they are like swatting flies
- Missions, POI, Engineered components are still randomly generated in the most obvious way
- No meaningful multiplayer cooperation, only combat - everything boils down to PvP
- We are all holograms that can teleport anywhere in the galaxy with no latency
- Nothing for traders
- Nothing for explorers

If FD can use 3.0 to pull the game out of the current hole it is in, then I tip my hat to them

 

[davedf]

Many people on this forum speculate they're doing just that. And yes on the technical debt, but I saw bigger debts being paid during the course of my career.

They may well have technical debt (let's face it, every software project does) but it is not visible to the user, aside from the slowdown of new features being added.

...but that is not what I was trying to say.

I don't know the usual term for what I am trying to articulate, but something like "Game design debt" or "UX Debt" - i.e. hacking mechanics into the game as shortcuts to delivering new features, at the cost of closing off future features or game mechanics

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

In my opinion mattered, I would stop season 3, shut down development on ED, review the game design mistakes and ensure there was a clear vision of what game Elite should be, and then reuse the exiting game assets to release an Eliteangerous 2
(or whatever marketing wanted to call it) as a clean sheet.

The badly thought out design decisions made during the Horizons season are building up into a significant debt, that is hampering the future development of the game.

This is unfortunately the case,

Almost every feature introduced, we see this kind of ethos.

We're going to implement it in its current for and see how it does, then go back and do a "FINESSE PASS"... I use the same words when trying to Bulls#$% my boss into thinking that I'm gonna improve upon what I just handed him

The features get forgotten and they are on to the next bolt on feature. always looking forward, seldom looking back.

at the end of the day... they move forward to the next feature..... but if they look back, there is a mountain of features... than need tons of "FINESSE"

Powerplay is still balls
Fighters launch with bugged hull dmg
SRV's take phantom damage when in a busy instance
and so on

Elite needs a "DO OVER" patch

 

[kzahard]

Man, I love this game. The concepts, the ships, the piloting...

But at the rate and quality of the game's growth and addition of good and fun features, I'm starting to drift towards other options.

I'm willing to give 3.0 a chance, but it would take something pretty amazing and sustainable for Elite to come out on top.

 

[davedf]

This is unfortunately the case,

Almost every feature introduced, we see this kind of ethos.

We're going to implement it in its current for and see how it does, then go back and do a "FINESSE PASS"... I use the same words when trying to Bulls#$% my boss into thinking that I'm gonna improve upon what I just handed him

The features get forgotten and they are on to the next bolt on feature. always looking forward, seldom looking back.

at the end of the day... they move forward to the next feature..... but if they look back, there is a mountain of features... than need tons of "FINESSE"

Powerplay is still balls
Fighters launch with bugged hull dmg
SRV's take phantom damage when in a busy instance
and so on

Elite needs a "DO OVER" patch

To be fair to FD, this is why we are getting Destiny 2, Elder Scrolls 6 (someday), Half Life... (...I'm not going to say it)

The whole concept of a single game that is evolving over time, rather than starting fresh is still rare outside of a few subscription titles. It creates a number of game design problems that have not yet been solved by anyone.

I understand the reasoning for FD going down this path - it gives a single cohesive player base, which is important in multiplayer. At some point the it becomes counter productive though. For me that point has been reached.

Given that the Playstation release is imminent, I don't think FD think it has reached that point yet.

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

Agreed, not saying they need a scrap and redo.

They just need to go back and actually "Finesse"... not just talk about it.

like Patch 2.2.03... a patch dedicated ONLY to combat balance...

why not have a patch 2.3.04 dedicated to ONLY "Finesse"

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

In my opinion mattered, I would stop season 3, shut down development on ED, review the game design mistakes and ensure there was a clear vision of what game Elite should be, and then reuse the exiting game assets to release an Eliteangerous 2
(or whatever marketing wanted to call it) as a clean sheet.

The badly thought out design decisions made during the Horizons season are building up into a significant debt, that is hampering the future development of the game.

I see where you are coming from, i really do, however i do not see how FD could do this without upseting a large percentage of their playerbase.

DB came out and categorically stated this is the last Elite game, but that it will be a living evolving entity for years to come (no not 10 years, that has become one of those QI booby trap answers imo)....... Therefore many folk paid far more than they normally would have compared to the average game which gets new versions every year - 3 years or so............... to support such a long term vision and a company who break those sorts of promises do so at their peril imo,


perhaps IF FD did this, core ED owners get a discount, horizons owners get a deeper discount & life time pass owners could get it free inc all DLC...... however I just dont see it happening. I do agree it is a problem which your suggestion could fix. imo ED is straying so far from the path that was pitched originally that it is barely recognisable in some areas and the more it goes on the less likely i see FD going back to "flesh out properly".

That said, as much as i moan a lot..... I still ultimately come back to... Do i still enjoy the game, and truth is, yes i do. i just have to ignore a lot of the content (which is a shame)

just last night I was at an abandoned base and learned the story of how a bunch of miners were abandoned after being trapped after a collapse.... worse in fact as they were deliberately killed afterwards.

nasty but still pretty enjoyable learning about it..... sure, it could have been far better fleshed out, but it was still an hr of enjoyment