Stream sniped and griefed while showing a newbie how to fly

[space pilot]

@jasonbarron Willing to guess you're missing the point, which is getting away with it. You could take a kitchen knife out of your drawer, drive to wherever, and probably kill more than one person before you were stopped. After that, though, you might be dead or in jail forever.

 

[Goose4291]

What can I help you with. I'm listening.

Perhaps you should try reading as well then?

It was this sentiment right here that started me on the path of not only PvP, but developing close ties and friendships with members of the more notorious player killer groups, such as SDC and Triadius. This disgusting idea that players destroying other players in a game that encourage ship destruction is a form of psychopathy and functions as a band aid for the desire to actually kill in real life.

I was always sickened by the attitude leveled at PvPers and most especially the predators until one day I couldn't take it anymore and I decided to take up the sword myself. The funny thing is that you people pull this stuff right out of your butt's without knowing anything of a personal nature about the player's you're passing such harsh judgment on. I got to know many of the most infamous player destroyers in the game and most of them would give you the shirt off of their back's or unlimited advice and help if shown even a bit of genuine respect, fairness, or friendliness. Hardly the attitude of a psycopath.

The bottom line is that the lot of you who insist on passing such personal judgement are missing a central fact; we're playing a game that revolves around blowing stuff up as it's most central theme, not a farming sim such as Stardew Valley, and you insist on acting like something very real and substantive has happened when in fact nothing has. If there's sickness being shown in the game or on this forum it's from people who insist on conflating in-game actions with real life.

Totally agree with you on this Jason. I'm primarily an open pve-r and this is how I usually get drawn into these 'discussions'.

 

[space pilot]

Perhaps you should try reading as well then?

I have, quite a bit. Is there something else?

 

[Goose4291]

Goose you're not a sociopath, but rather I think, want the game to be something it's not right now. I want fleets, a less clunky comms system, and a whole bunch of other stuff. With dodgy instancing and 3 game modes, I doubt we will get those raging space battles I envisaged. However I removed the blinkers, like to chill out playing the game and adjusted my gaming basketcase behaviour because in Elite being a roaming nutter killing everything for fun, for no other reason than killing everything for fun just isn't fun. Especially in a wing of decent ships vs a single lesser equipped opponent. It's like playing Space Invaders but the invaders are humans. In fact space invaders had more risk. At least it got harder which each level.

I know I'm not a Sociopath, old chap (if I was, I wouldnt have been allowed to serve on Trident submarines for 9 years).

I agree with you in that I bought into this game when it was promised as something else (I started a thread about it a while back, called 'A farewell to simulation').

But I've accepted that, and moved on (I dabble in Elite these days, rather than play it exclusively). What I wont accept though is the weirdly prevalent attitude on this forum that somehow because you might want to use your guns against another player in a game where that is allowed for whatever reason (be it Powerplay, Roleplay or pure whimsy), that there is something fundamentally wrong with you as an individual, when that's clearly not the case.

 

[space pilot]

I know I'm not a Sociopath, old chap (if I was, I wouldnt have been allowed to serve on Trident submarines for 9 years).

Non sequitur.

...What I wont accept though is this weirdly prevalent attitude on tuis forum that somehow because you might want to use your guns against another player in a game where that is allowed for whatever reason (be it Powerplay, Roleplay or pure whimsy), that there is something fundamentally wrong with you as an individual, when thats clearly not the case.

I have literally never heard anyone say anything approximating that--that for example Powerplay PVP says something negative about you. No one said that, and no one thinks that. What does say something about you is that you would invoke that as an excuse. For what, I wonder.

 

[Dbrn47]

I have, quite a bit. Is there something else?

You can't judge the mental state of another human being based on how they conduct themselves in a video game, especially when they likely don't take the game seriously in the first place. Wanting to be the bad guy in a fantasy world is pretty common, because it's fantasy and no one actually gets hurt. I enjoy gory violence in games and films, but I'm not particularly in a rush to see a real person dismembered. There is a big difference. Sure, there are bullies and there's no doubt that there may actually be people with disorders that play games. That doesn't mean it's the sole reasoning. There's a bit more nuance to human behavior than that.

 

[space pilot]

You can't judge the mental state of another human being based on how they conduct themselves in a video game, especially when they likely don't take the game seriously in the first place...

I can and will, and I consider the difference between how they would act in real life and in a video game.

 

[ryan_m]

You can't judge the mental state of another human being based on how they conduct themselves in a video game, especially when they likely don't take the game seriously in the first place. Being the bad guy in a fantasy world is pretty common, because it's fantasy and no one actually gets hurt. I enjoy gory violence in games and films, but I'm not particularly in a rush to see a real person dismembered. There is a big difference. Sure, there are bullies and there's no doubt that there may actually be people with disorders that play games. That doesn't mean it's the sole reasoning. There's a bit more nuance to human behavior than that.

No man, you don't get it. Anyone who shoots at other players in a video game where you're specifically meant to shoot at other players is a sociopathic, basement dwelling, mid-20's pampered millenial who has no respect for anyone other than themselves.

/s

 

[Goose4291]

Non sequitur.

Not really, if you're going to be locked up in a tin can for 90 days plus with nuclear weapons, firearms and 134 other chaps, rather unsurprisingly they want to make sure you're firing on all cylinders.

I have literally never heard anyone say anything approximating that--that for example Powerplay PVP says something negative about you. No one said that, and no one thinks that. What does say something about you is that you would invoke that as an excuse. For what, I wonder.

Then I suggest you look back to the early CODE threads, 13th legion blockade threads, or the powerplay threads when it was popular.

 

[space pilot]

No man, you don't get it. Anyone who shoots at other players in a video game where you're specifically meant allowed to shoot at other players is a sociopathic, basement dwelling, mid-20's pampered millenial who has no respect for anyone other than themselves.potentially an a-hole.

/s

Fixed.

- - - Updated - - -

Not really, if you're going to be locked up in a tin can for 90 days plus with nuclear weapons, firearms and 134 other chaps, rather unsurprisingly they want to make sure you're firing on all cylinders.



Then I suggest you look back to the early CODE threads, 13th legion blockade threads, or the powerplay threads when it was popular.

Nah, I don't take your advice for much. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Goose4291]

No man, you don't get it. Anyone who shoots at other players in a video game where you're specifically meant to shoot at other players is a sociopathic, basement dwelling, mid-20's pampered millenial who has no respect for anyone other than themselves.

/s

As I cant rep you, have a Chuck Norris gif

 

[ryan_m]

Fixed.

"Help rebels overthrow an oppressive regime, put down a rebellion, or just hunt other Commanders."

Just took that screenie from the website, btw.

 

[Goose4291]

Nah, I don't take your advice for much. Let's agree to disagree.

Except I'm not offering you advice. I'm supporting my statement.

You said that sentimentality doesn't exist.

I've said it does and have pointed you to numerous places where it's been expressed previously.

 

[Dbrn47]

Fixed.

I can and will.

You think it might be possible that you, yourself, are a bit more anti-social than you think you are? You seem to be interested in how human's think and behave, but you're awfully quick to judge on little information. EVERYONE is POTENTIALLY a jerk, depending on the circumstance. It's already hard enough to truly get to know people over the internet. How someone chooses to play a video game, in a way that is basically encouraged by Frontier's marketing, seems a bit too abstract for me. These people aren't out to poison your dog so they can see you cry, they're just out to blow up fantasy spaceships piloted by other real people. Sometimes, it's done in a way that feels like it's pretty poor form, but if it's still well within the rules of the game, what's the issue? It's easy to opt out of the possibility.

That's the part I don't understand, I don't like being ganked by people either, so I opt out. If I wanted to play with people I'd likely do it from a private group. I don't like non-consensual PvP, that's just how it is, so I avoid it. Not liking it isn't a reflection of who other people are. I used to think it meant something, but really I was just upset I lost something. Upset that I was putting myself in the position to lose in the first place. I've actually lost real money in Eve, no one to blame but myself, I practically gave it away. CCP would have said exactly that too. Here in Elite, that's not even possible, be happy for that.

These days, I leave the diagnosis to the people qualified to do it, in a clinical setting, and even then, they don't always get it right. If anything, these players you're lamenting are probably the only thing left even giving the feeling of Elite's "cutthroat galaxy." In game scumbag does not equal real life scumbag and it's probably pretty irresponsible to even assert that, given your background.

 

[AceFlares]

Goose respect for spending 9 years in a metal tube a couple of miles down. shudder lol o/

No man, you don't get it. Anyone who shoots at other players in a video game where you're specifically meant to shoot at other players is a sociopathic, basement dwelling, mid-20's pampered millenial who has no respect for anyone other than themselves.

/s

The game doesn't anywhere say you're specifically meant to shoot other players though. It's a sandbox where you choose to do so. My issue is why choose to so in a fox hunting manner. No risk to the attacker, nothing to gain to be worth the effort.

You can't judge the mental state of another human being based on how they conduct themselves in a video game, especially when they likely don't take the game seriously in the first place. Wanting to be the bad guy in a fantasy world is pretty common, because it's fantasy and no one actually gets hurt. I enjoy gory violence in games and films, but I'm not particularly in a rush to see a real person dismembered. There is a big difference. Sure, there are bullies and there's no doubt that there may actually be people with disorders that play games. That doesn't mean it's the sole reasoning. There's a bit more nuance to human behavior than that.

One thing that is wrong with that statement, is it's highly likely the so called ganker who calls himself a pvper does take the game *more* seriously than the average joe casual. That person will spend a long time grinding the hell out of the game to get their supership and will reduce the risk of losing it to almost zero. Then gloat when they kill their fox.

 

[Red Anders]

People have suggested locking Starter Space before. While I can see why this is, to a degree, a good idea, is does also prevent Players like my self from helping new Players to a better start. I will, on occasion, call into Starter Space in my Anaconda with a decent load of cargo. I then attempt to get new Players to join my Wing. When I sell my cargo they will get a Trade Dividend from the Station. I also offer advice and answer any questions that I can. Locking Starter Space will prevent myself and other who wish to help new Players from being able to do so.

Locking systems is a waste of time.

Set the lockout low and it's not like playing for a week in a completely protected system and then heading out into open in a Viper Mk3 is going to be what makes the difference between getting vapourised by a Corvette or not, about the only possible purpose it serves is letting players get comfortable with the basic controls and learning to high wake out when interdicted and they can do that in solo.

Set the lockout high and you're going to have players in the 'protected' system who could smash a noob all over the place anyway.

It's completely pointless.

The game already provides not only a protected system but a protected galaxy for anybody who wants to give new players a hand without risking any third party involvment - private group.

 

[Dbrn47]

One thing that is wrong with that statement, is it's highly likely the so called ganker who calls himself a pvper does take the game *more* seriously than the average joe casual. That person will spend a long time grinding the hell out of the game to get their supership and will reduce the risk of losing it to almost zero. Then gloat when they kill their fox.

True, that does happen. I'm only trying to defend against the idea of mental states and broad brushes.

 

[AceFlares]

True, that does happen. I'm only trying to defend against the idea of mental states and broad brushes.

Fair enough, but it's hard to defend people who gank for kicks. They're not robots, they do it for an emotional return because there's nothing else in the game that satisfies their lust for risk free pew or "salt extraction". An arrogant feeling of being better than those poor chumps who don't run fast enough or turn and fight their super ship or more often than not, their wing. Despite the fact they have purposely practiced, grinded the gear, focused on pvp and become the aggressor which will give them an advantage before any engagement even begins, whereas the target guy is just tooting through space rolling a spliff and thinking about a ham sandwhich because if they're attacked the only real choice is to try and run due to the attack/defence & crime/punishment in Elite being so out of whack.

 

[Dbrn47]

Fair enough, but it's hard to defend people who gank for kicks. They're not robots, they do it for an emotional return because there's nothing else in the game that satisfies their lust for risk free pew or "extract salt". An arrogant feeling of being better than those poor chumps who don't run fast enough or turn and fight their super ship or more often than not, their wing. Despite the fact they have purposely practiced, grinded the gear, focused on pvp and become the aggressor which will give them an advantage before any engagement even begins, whereas the target guy is just tooting through space rolling a spliff and thinking about a ham sandwhich because if they're attacked the only real choice is to try and run due to the attack/defence & crime/punishment in Elite being so out of whack.

There's nothing to defend though. Frontier's stance is that this sort of thing is part of the experience. You are allowed to hunt other players for kicks, just like NPCs hunt players 'just cuz'. PvP happens where PvP is allowed, regardless of reason and without regard to what the other guy is doing. A crime and punishment system is not going to really curtail that completely, it may just give them pause about the risk vs reward or just make them hop into a ship that's less risky to lose. I really do believe people when they say the sort of people we are demonizing are few and far between. It feels like we spend vastly more time talking about them, diagnosing them, and wanting to punish them vs them actually doing something that warrants the punishment and medical diagnosis.

The onus is on the player to choose the mode that fits their mentality and play style. If you go into a game that has Open PvP, you should expect Open PvP. The mode isn't 'Open PvE', it's just 'Open' and PvP is allowed. If you don't want to expect or accept it, then it's the wrong mode of play for you. Private groups and solo mode is where it's at for us folk that aren't interested in non-consenual PvP.

 

[space pilot]

You think it might be possible that you, yourself, are a bit more anti-social than you think you are? You seem to be interested in how human's think and behave, but you're awfully quick to judge on little information. EVERYONE is POTENTIALLY a jerk, depending on the circumstance. It's already hard enough to truly get to know people over the internet. How someone chooses to play a video game, in a way that is basically encouraged by Frontier's marketing, seems a bit too abstract for me. These people aren't out to poison your dog so they can see you cry, they're just out to blow up fantasy spaceships piloted by other real people. Sometimes, it's done in a way that feels like it's pretty poor form, but if it's still well within the rules of the game, what's the issue? It's easy to opt out of the possibility.

That's the part I don't understand, I don't like being ganked by people either, so I opt out. If I wanted to play with people I'd likely do it from a private group. I don't like non-consensual PvP, that's just how it is, so I avoid it. Not liking it isn't a reflection of who other people are. I used to think it meant something, but really I was just upset I lost something. Upset that I was putting myself in the position to lose in the first place. I've actually lost real money in Eve, no one to blame but myself, I practically gave it away. CCP would have said exactly that too. Here in Elite, that's not even possible, be happy for that.

I opt out too. I'm arguing against the gankers, or whatever you want to call them, because I don't want them to have the satisfaction of getting one over on anyone.

These days, I leave the diagnosis to the people qualified to do it, in a clinical setting, and even then, they don't always get it right

That's the thing, sociopathy doesn't have to be a mental illness, and certainly isn't complicated. It's just not having compassion for anyone. It's a fact. It doesn't imply being "disturbed" or anything, and it doesn't appear to be "treatable". I consider it a personality trait. Similarly with sadism, as I'm using the term, a general desire for others to feel worse. That's not an illness, or a syndrome, etcetera, either. It's simple. Neither characteristic is written on a person's forehead, but comparing the behavior of everyone, they can be picked up on.

The latter is usually preceded by the former, because of a lack of barriers or checks. If you simply don't care about the emotional state of anyone to begin with, and you hear someone makes $10 more per year than you for the same job, that might as well be a death sentence if there are no repercussions for murder in your situation. And that's close to where we are in ED open, a playground for those who happen to be sadists.