Please improve the functionality of "Report Crimes On/Off"

[Truesilver]

This has been raised before. It is a bit of a nightmare in PvP duelling and I'm raising it again in the hope that it will one day be addressed.

If I am clean and I am interdicted and attacked by someone who is clean and has report crimes "on", it is impossible for me to defend myself against their attack in a policed system without NPC authority ships being summoned to shoot at one or other of us.

If I keep report crimes on and the other guy shoots first, NPC police will be summoned to attack the other guy.

If I put report crimes off, NPC police will be summoned to attack me.

This is a never-ending pain in PvP for those of us who want to defend ourselves against aggressors without NPC assistance.

Last night I was at the CG system. I was clean. Powerplay did not affect what follows.

I was in supercruise in my Courier. A clean Asp interdicted me without prior comms. I had report crimes off. He (it transpired) had report crimes on. Hence I became Wanted immediately and NPC police were summoned to help him and attacked me (they did not prevent the interdicting Asp's righteous defeat, but that's a matter for a different thread).

If I had had report crimes 'on' and the Asp had shot first, NPC police would have been summoned to attack him.

The game is not giving me any option to defend myself without NPC interference, if someone interdicts me and attacks me, if they have report crimes 'on'. Whatever I do, NPC's will arrive, to help one side or the other.

By definition this is not a problem in agreed duels because both parties make sure to have report crimes 'off'. But it is a problem when a Cmdr who is clean and has report crimes 'on' interdicts and starts a fight.

Furthermore, more and more I am finding it to be a problem when I am already duelling another guy, both of us with report crimes "off", and some random drops into our wake and starts shooting at one of us. As night follows day, the original duellists stop fighting and drive off or kill the uninvited guest, but as night follows day the intruder has report crimes "on" and then NPC cops arrive to help him, preventing us even from resuming our rudely interrupted duel unmolested once the intruder has died or run away.

Please consider solving this problem by adding a third option to the right panel toggle:

1. Report crimes on
2. Report crimes off
3. Report crimes but do not summon assistance

I would fly with Option 3 engaged, meaning that if am clean, those who attack me without comms (hence without agreement to shift to Option 2) would become Wanted but no police would interfere in our fight.

Thank you!

=============================================================================
EDIT 25 June 2017:

In light of this thread here ...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ew-C-amp-P-improvements?p=5646693#post5646693

... I'd like to summarise the three proposals now under discussion:


1. Add a third option to Report Crimes: 'Report Crimes Against Me But Do Not Summon Assistance'

2. Make it impossible to toggle Report Crimes whilst in combat with another player (such as by making the options variable only when docked, or not variable within a certain time of taking fire)

3. Make Report Crimes status of a target vessel visible upon completion of basic scan


Item 1 is my original proposal, in the OP of this Suggestions thread. It is devoted to permitting Cmdrs to have the option to defend themselves from PvP attack without unwanted help from NPC authority ships.

Items 2 and 3 are proposals made by another player, in the linked thread, which have my full support. They are devoted to saving consensual duellists from accruing unwarranted Pilots Federation bounties under the new C&P system because their opponent innocently or deliberately has Report Crimes On, when he has said it was Off, or as trolling switches Report Crimes back On mid-duel.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Truesilver!

This would not prevent a third party summoning the authorities if your assailant was wanted (say because you had option three turned on and they had attacked you illegally) and they attacked them – legally – and was fired against.

It would also not prevent authorities getting involved if they arrived for some other reason and scanned your foe.

However, this third option would still reduce the likelihood of authority interference, it's true. Such an option might also be useful to Powerplay in the long run.

We'll take it under consideration.

 

[Truesilver]

Sandro, thank you very much indeed for such a swift and (at least potentially) positive reply.

o7

 

[StiTch]

I brought it up before, but simple solution: even with report crimes on, if you attack another ship that is clean only, then your "report crimes" becomes invalid if that specific ship returns fire.

This way we recognise that police should be summoned to assist against a wanted target should this be your desire (if not, disable your own report crimes), but if you opt to attack any clean target, then even if you are lucky enough that they disabled crime reporting there wouldn't be the pretense your "victim" is the criminal for returning fire. Any attack on clean target = you in the wrong, whether they choose to penalise you or not.

 

[X-Terminator]

Working the only way it can therefore you should be Interdicting within Anarchy space or Low Security. Space is big but we do not own any of it. Cops have a job to do. If you are Interdicted and still want PvP then have filtered Anarchy for a Jump and see if they follow you to then PvP. OR simply agree your terms else jump elsewhere.

 

[Moesis]

I very much like this Idea, I've also had a similar one myself, It would achieve the same thing but essentially the difference is report crimes becomes exactly that the crime is reported (assistance is not automatic, but they become wanted) and then there is a "make distress call" type function/option. I mean those poor NPC cops are busy enough without having to respond to every crime reported, some of us can handle the situation ourselves .

It could add a possible mechanic that maybe one day further down the track, these calls could also show up to other players too, allowing players to spontaneously help others. Its nefarious uses for tricking others into a fight would only work in Anarchies as the cops would also show up, and false calls could also have repurcusions if the cops get there and you don't submit to a scan.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander StiTch!

If you attack - and importantly hit - a clean vessel, you will become wanted *and* the target ship will instantly log you as scanned, revealing your wanted status, so when they fire back it will be in self defence and no crime will be reported.

Of course, if this is not working then it should be reported as a bug.

 

[StiTch]

Hello Commander StiTch!

If you attack - and importantly hit - a clean vessel, you will become wanted *and* the target ship will instantly log you as scanned, revealing your wanted status, so when they fire back it will be in self defence and no crime will be reported.

Of course, if this is not working then it should be reported as a bug.

Either someone has a misunderstanding, or not working as intended.

What I believe TS is saying is that if a ship with report crimes against me turned on decides to attack a ship that has it turned off, but both ships are clean, the attacker is not flagged as wanted - because the defendant has crime reporting disabled.

This means that if the ship being attacked returns fire, it is marked as Wanted because the attacking ship had crime reporting enabled - even though they both started clean and "he shot first"

I believe this to be true from my own experience, but not always simple to test in the field without a companion.

If this is the case, my suggestion would simply be that if a ship with Report Crimes turned on attacks a clean ship, then even if the defending clean ship has crime reporting disabled, return fire from that specific ship would not mark it as wanted.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander StiTch!

Ah yes, I understand.

To be fair, if you fly with report crimes off then it mechanically makes sense to get lumped with a crime if you fight back against an aggressor if they are not currently wanted.

This is why I kind of like the suggestion of a third option, log crime but do not call for assistance.

 

[X-Terminator]

This means that if the ship being attacked returns fire, it is marked as Wanted because the attacking ship had crime reporting enabled - even though they both started clean and "he shot first"

It needs to be cleared up (edit: thanks Sandro) - ofcourse if the daft Defendant is not reporting as he wants a PvP then he should have asked the attacker before proceeding. It is therefore a Ganker Tactic!

If Option 3 is available then how can you trust the other Player theirs is also set and stays for the duration? Put it in the Sub-Target Menu and connect it with combat 15sec exit?

 

[StiTch]

Hello Commander StiTch!

Ah yes, I understand.

To be fair, if you fly with report crimes off then it mechanically makes sense to get lumped with a crime if you fight back against an aggressor if they are not currently wanted.

This is why I kind of like the suggestion of a third option, log crime but do not call for assistance.

In that case, ignore me I sometimes go too far in the name of simplicity...

All power to TS and a third option then.

It needs to be cleared up (edit: thanks Sandro) - ofcourse if the daft Defendant is not reporting as he wants a PvP then he should have asked the attacker before proceeding. It is therefore a Ganker Tactic!
Ideally, you'd both get WANTED, the attacker attacked a CLEAN first and should, the defendant attacks back with gets cops called in after them for not reporting the crime first! Working as intended and open to abuse.

Not sure quite what you mean but going off the earlier part of your statement, not all CMDRs that want PvP combat want it to be scheduled to a specific time, location, agreement of rules...

Many CMDRs wander the stars with crime reporting disabled because if an impromptu fight kicks off, it allows for more pure combat without the hindrance of police - but it doesn't mean scheduling every fight or even asking for the duel beforehand. As TS shows, it was within the defending ship's right to call police on the attacker, but simply did not want that upper hand.

Specifically I have, until recently, avoided PvP groups and "planned" PvP because it just doesn't do it for me as much. Unplanned brawls are much more my thing, though it's been a bit dead since 2.1, so I'll be branching into more orchestrated events.

 

[Shadowdancer]

This is why I kind of like the suggestion of a third option, log crime but do not call for assistance.

Maybe call it "report an inconvenience" or "decline support" (as a perk for pilots federation members, it's conceivable that police would not really want to deal with us anyway); the thing where just locally logging a crime would give someone the right to open fire on a vessel not otherwise known for misconduct seems a bit odd.

 

[X-Terminator]

Let's face it, an Interdiction between Players is either: Defender runs away OR Combats PvP OR they Exit to Menu.
Now in this space of time Cops will only appear if Combat has ensued.
Therefore make all Interdictions Disrupt the Defenders Report Crimes and they must handle it as they always do.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Shadowdancer!

Yes, they are options, a "report this crime but refuse assistance" would make sense with the reputation of the Pilot's Federation, and I would imagine that the authorities would always be grateful when someone offered to do their job for free.

 

[StiTch]

Let's face it, an Interdiction between Players is either: Defender runs away OR Combats PvP OR they Exit to Menu.
Now in this space of time Cops will only appear if Combat has ensued.
Therefore make all Interdictions Disrupt the Defenders Report Crimes and they must handle it as they always do.

...and when interdictions aren't involved?

Not that I'm sure what you mean anyway

 

[X-Terminator]

little time to think n type in Interdictions. Plenty time elsewhere. Both sides still need the same mode!
Oh ok, the first attacker still gets WANTED but does not get the Defendant cops after them.

 

[StiTch]

Oh ok, the first attacker still gets WANTED but does not get the Defendant cops after them.

And thankyou for providing the TL;DR of the OP

 

[Truesilver]

To be absolutely clear, as it's plain Sandro has already entirely taken on board, but for other forum posters/readers:

All we are talking about here is permitting those of us who like 'unscripted' PvP, and may welcome being attacked 'for no reason' the option - as the victim - of choosing to turn and fight our attackers without summoning police assistance.

Running 20 Ly away to the nearest anarchy in they hope they might follow wouldn't really achieve the same thing, I'm afraid. Neither does trying to agree terms with them. All we are asking for is the opportunity - as the victim - to choose to kill or be killed on the spot, no police required...!

 

[MickyG1982]

Hello Commander Shadowdancer!

Yes, they are options, a "report this crime but refuse assistance" would make sense with the reputation of the Pilot's Federation, and I would imagine that the authorities would always be grateful when someone offered to do their job for free.

It could be extended a little bit & have separate options for NPC's & other CMDRS

 

[Shadowdancer]

Therefore make all Interdictions Disrupt the Defenders Report Crimes and they must handle it as they always do.

There is no world in which that would make sense. It would completely break hostile player interactions, because the attacker would never have to fear repercussions.