Griefers and Elite's Emerging Karma System

[Zambrick]

I find the whole notion of tying real world money loss to in-game time loss ridiculous. There's not a thing I do on my computer that I take seriously enough to make that correlation with. Games come with risk, they are games for a reason, if I'm set back by a players actions or by corrupted software or even my ISP going down then that's a consequence I am fully prepared to deal with. Whether that means I take off to another game for a bit to utilize what time I have to play better or I go at it again to recoup what virtual currency/status I lost, it's not equated to real world anything other than time that I have already allotted to gaming. I built my computer for a variety of reasons, the least of which was Elite. I don't upgrade it for Elite. I upgrade it for gaming in general and if I can't afford to upgrade it then I just don't buy the most recent cutting edge games and stick to the tried and true that I at least know are fun for me.

Then again, I'm salaried so my paychecks aren't affected by my weekly hours.

As far as charity streams go.. If they made money and gave it to a charity, that's still better than no money? Right?

Now if FDev had a set piece moving into position in live action and had 40,000 players watching it and someone came into play and destroyed said set piece, forcing FDev to just shrug and place it manually from behind the scenes, ruining the show for everyone involved, I could understand that kind of griefing being a relatively bad thing.

Streams get sniped all the time. Even I've been stream sniped while trying to show my daughter the game. It happens. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Then you can tell the kid who didnt get shoes that at least some money was made. More could have been made and you could have had shoes but honey they had to kill for the lolz. I hope you understand it. Tell the veteran that doesnt get the medical care they needed was because the event was destroyed maliciously for the lolz.

Name one organized charity event where strangers are allowed to run in the building shoot everything up and get away with it.

Games are not risk Games are games. They are supposed to be fun. They can contain risk but they are not themselves a risk. They are supposed to entertain. So when some griefing idiot blows you up for no reason, then you stop having fun. If the reason they play is ruin other peoples experience, then how are people who dont want to do those things supposed to play? I can tell you how they play now. They disappear into Private and Solo and we never see them again. If games were not fun then they would not be games.

Just because you specifically did not build your PC for Elite or video games in general, just puts you in the minority of the PC gaming community. Everyone else would like to get value for their investment. Most people on the planet cant just buy new hardware, software, and games on a whim. Just because it seems you can doesnt mean that everyone else has to measure up to your standard or lack thereof.

 

[Morbad]

We're all walking across the backs of slaves to attain and maintain our privilege as mostly comfortable residents, of mostly first world nations, who have disposable wealth and free time. I'm ok with is, as the alternative is for me and mine to be less comfortable. You're all ok with it too, despite any pretensions to the contrary, otherwise you'd do more about it.

Anyway, I certainly consider stream sniping to be cheating, assuming the streamer doesn't desire to be stream sniped. I don't see the act as fundamentally different than any other out-of-game imposition on in-game activity, and the sort of event that may be occurring is irrelevant to my views on this (though seemingly not irrelevant to Frontier).

Also, statements about games and entertainment do not imply anything about what those subjective terms are supposed to mean in this context.

The most entertaining game Elite: Dangerous can be, from my perspective, is one which takes itself seriously enough to depict a convincing setting with a high degree of verisimilitude. Anything that craps up this verisimilitude, without adequate return, is something I'm going to find to be harmful to the level of entertainment I can extract.

I would personally find a system that made it implausibly difficult for my CMDR's vessel to be attacked and destroyed on a whim, far more harmful to my entertainment than my CMDR's vessel occasionally being attacked and destroyed on a whim, even if I was playing an ardent pacifist who would never fire upon or intentionally touch another vessel.

Same rationales shape my views on everything else in the game. I ask myself, "if I were in my CMDRs shoes with only knowledge of the Elite setting, would this situation seem significantly amiss?" If the answer is yes, that is something that could stand to be improved. Obviously there are limits to what can be done and to the game's scope, and I can suspend my disbelief through a lot...but changing the game to be less plausible, to require greater, suspension of disbelief, is going to require far more than a half-hearted appeal to those that are morally outraged that someone else can interrupt their rigid personal narrative, for me to not complain about it.

 

[W.T.Sherman]

We're all walking across the backs of slaves to attain and maintain our privilege as mostly comfortable residents, of mostly first world nations, who have disposable wealth and free time. I'm ok with is, as the alternative is for me and mine to be less comfortable. You're all ok with it too, despite any pretensions to the contrary, otherwise you'd do more about it.

Anyway, I certainly consider stream sniping to be cheating, assuming the streamer doesn't desire to be stream sniped. I don't see the act as fundamentally different than any other out-of-game imposition on in-game activity, and the sort of event that may be occurring is irrelevant to my views on this (though seemingly not irrelevant to Frontier).

Also, statements about games and entertainment do not imply anything about what those subjective terms are supposed to mean in this context.

The most entertaining game Elite: Dangerous can be, from my perspective, is one which takes itself seriously enough to depict a convincing setting with a high degree of verisimilitude. Anything that craps up this verisimilitude, without adequate return, is something I'm going to find to be harmful to the level of entertainment I can extract.

I would personally find a system that made it implausibly difficult for my CMDR's vessel to be attacked and destroyed on a whim, far more harmful to my entertainment than my CMDR's vessel occasionally being attacked and destroyed on a whim, even if I was playing an ardent pacifist who would never fire upon or intentionally touch another vessel.

Same rationales shape my views on everything else in the game. I ask myself, "if I were in my CMDRs shoes with only knowledge of the Elite setting, would this situation seem significantly amiss?" If the answer is yes, that is something that could stand to be improved. Obviously there are limits to what can be done and to the game's scope, and I can suspend my disbelief through a lot...but changing the game to be less plausible, to require greater, suspension of disbelief, is going to require far more than a half-hearted appeal to those that are morally outraged that someone else can interrupt their rigid personal narrative, for me to not complain about it.

Very few times in my life have I seen so little said with so many words. Congratulations, I'm not easily impressed.

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

WOW TL;DR and lots of waaaaaaaaaayy off-topic points.

Anyways - back to OP.

Errrmmm - armchair psychology aside I was actually rather pleased to read Sandy's comments. The system they are proposing is a step in the right direction and can fit within ED Lore i feel. It is rather similar to an idea I proposed a while ago in the suggestions board which means either
1) i am awesome and FDev owe me a job OR more likely
2) a system that balances aggressive behaviour is a rather common sense based system

I like that the proposed system accepts that PVP is not 'bad', accepts that actions are scaled and ongoing (whats the rate of karma decay Sandy?), and works to margnialise anarchists to anarchy sectors, which means the lawful should be safe in high sec systems with safety levels decreasing out to anarchic systems.

if they get this system running it can certainly be built upon for other things - which also adds potential lasting benefit. Does it meet the 80/20 rule - i think it does, is it workable, i think it is, and does it make 'sense' without discriminating against gameplay styles - i think it does.

Two thumbs up FDEV.

 

[akaliel]

I just read that and I feel the same was as you expressed. The part where Cosmos related his experience with real grief actually caught me up short. Honestly I dont expect that kind of substance on this forum.

Personally I don't participate in any PvP in Elite. Just cause I don't wanna. But it bugs me when people are seriously angry about having their pretend space ship blown up. It just lacks perspective.

Today I had to rush home from work 4 hours early because my son's insulin pump started throwing up weird errors. It's an $8000 device that keeps him alive. One that we cannot afford to replace. So my experience with grief today would be begging my boss to leave early so I can rush to his school and diagnose the problem before things quickly get worse. Not having my T9 blown up.

It's just a stupid game folks.

 

[ranje]

Personally I don't participate in any PvP in Elite. Just cause I don't wanna. But it bugs me when people are seriously angry about having their pretend space ship blown up. It just lacks perspective.

Today I had to rush home from work 4 hours early because my son's insulin pump started throwing up weird errors. It's an $8000 device that keeps him alive. One that we cannot afford to replace. So my experience with grief today would be begging my boss to leave early so I can rush to his school and diagnose the problem before things quickly get worse. Not having my T9 blown up.

It's just a stupid game folks.

good point made with a sad story.

all the best wishes to your son man! hope he enjoys a long life.

 

[Sundae]

The only people being griefed are those that took the time to actually read that ridiculous OP lmao

 

[Delilah]

Reading through this I see that there's a lot of over-reaction and misinterpretation. Shocking!

After reading Sandros comments it's clear what they want to do.

There are players who play bad CMDRs. They pirate, they hunt, they shoot. They defend systems, powers or whatever they've decided is worth value to them in the sandbox. They are playing Elite in the spirit of the game.

Then there are players who are only interested in using the game to annoy or upset people OUTSIDE the game. Elite is just a tool to them to impact players outside that 4th wall. It could be any game, they've just chosen Elite. The spirit of the game means nothing. They are playing players. This behavior doesn't really fit into a community who enjoy actually playing Elite.

How do you decouple player types? How to measure intent? Sounds like frontier want to put numbers to behaviors (rep, kharma, whatever you call it) and track trends over time. Intent can be inferred from the patterns.

Sounds good to me. At the end of the day, you want players who are playing together and enjoying themselves with whatever they've decided. You don't want Players just using your game as their tool to get at real people.

Oh and yes peoples REAL time has true value.

Playing Elite vs. playing the players. Nice distinction.

- - - Updated - - -

I smell torches and hear pitchforks rattling - they love to call this "victim blaming", because, you know - that whole Entitled, Freedom from Consequences thing folks seem to love today. "Personal Responsibility" and "Personal Accountability" are an anathema to these folks.

But I don't disagree with you in the slightest - if you run your mouth and someone puts a fist in it, it was probably deserved. A little "sack up and suck it up" never killed anyone, in fact, it made people better people.

"Use your words". I shouldn't have to point that out.

 

[jasonbarron]

The only people being griefed are those that took the time to actually read that ridiculous OP lmao

You really think so? After reading such a hard hitting piece of armchair psychology I was reminded once again that it is always preferable to have tulips on my organ than roses on my piano.

 

[Delilah]

before Sandro come talking about karma system....hummm

I suggest a quick finding who are these Grieffers..... of course there are many people involved in this activity,
but nótorios Griefers are so well connected with FD Dev , It's not conspiracy or favoritism.

Nótorios Griefers are people who are in the game since the very beginning, know very well the game, know all the people and everyone knows who they are.
The recent clumsy Salomé episode clearly shows how close they are (Let's stay on topic )

My conclusion is quite simple, they are normal people who like to play this way, at this point nothing in the game prevents them from acting like that...

I think Griefers are bad for the game when they attack nobies... When They do steam sniper...then the damage is done... always reflects badly on the game.

Now, the community discusses the subject FD can say a few words about but I think that any change for now.

"We have an eye on the subject bla, bla, bla" [alien]

Pardon me if I misunderstand, but are you saying the devs of Elites cover for or promote griefers because of personal friendships?

 

[Witcher 7]

Games are games. They are supposed to be fun. They can contain risk but they are not themselves a risk. They are supposed to entertain. So when some griefing idiot blows you up for no reason, then you stop having fun. If the reason they play is ruin other peoples experience, then how are people who dont want to do those things supposed to play? I can tell you how they play now. They disappear into Private and Solo and we never see them again. If games were not fun then they would not be games.

Indeed, victims of griefers do disappear into Private or Solo for sometime - myself included which defeats the purpose of Open Play where you can meet other players and hopefully become friends. I find griefers behaviours no different to school kid bullies - what/where's the fun in destroying a ship that's significantly weaker especially when they also hunt for players in wings?

Recently, I flew to Maia with a friend to check out alien activity and he was killed by a well known griefer upon entering the system. He was flying in an unarmed Asp whilst the griefer was in an FDL. Surely this act is not "playing the game"? In a matter of speak, it's no different to when you visit a tourist site and a couple of bad tourists jumps queue, steps on you, pushes you, etc. to spoil your enjoyment for selfish reasons. Hence, I agree with Zambrick that games are for entertainment plus social interaction. What's missing is some moderation unlike what you find in social media and forums.

 

[Delilah]

I agree with you on this point.
It is also shown those who enjoy bringing pain and death to animals often become serial killers or murders very easily. There is something inherently wrong in their mind set that compels them to do these horrid acts for fun.

I'm glad you pointed this out. The strong correlations between human victimizers and animal abusers is termed "the link". The dark tetrad bubbles up in many areas of life besides online gaming. There is some talk about studies to see if victimizers might be identitied early on through their online griefing, just as is done now in many jurisdictions by tracking animal abuse. But I personally know of no studies that do this.

- - - Updated - - -

We're all walking across the backs of slaves to attain and maintain our privilege as mostly comfortable residents, of mostly first world nations, who have disposable wealth and free time. I'm ok with is, as the alternative is for me and mine to be less comfortable. You're all ok with it too, despite any pretensions to the contrary, otherwise you'd do more about it.

Anyway, I certainly consider stream sniping to be cheating, assuming the streamer doesn't desire to be stream sniped. I don't see the act as fundamentally different than any other out-of-game imposition on in-game activity, and the sort of event that may be occurring is irrelevant to my views on this (though seemingly not irrelevant to Frontier).

Also, statements about games and entertainment do not imply anything about what those subjective terms are supposed to mean in this context.

The most entertaining game Elite: Dangerous can be, from my perspective, is one which takes itself seriously enough to depict a convincing setting with a high degree of verisimilitude. Anything that craps up this verisimilitude, without adequate return, is something I'm going to find to be harmful to the level of entertainment I can extract.

I would personally find a system that made it implausibly difficult for my CMDR's vessel to be attacked and destroyed on a whim, far more harmful to my entertainment than my CMDR's vessel occasionally being attacked and destroyed on a whim, even if I was playing an ardent pacifist who would never fire upon or intentionally touch another vessel.

Same rationales shape my views on everything else in the game. I ask myself, "if I were in my CMDRs shoes with only knowledge of the Elite setting, would this situation seem significantly amiss?" If the answer is yes, that is something that could stand to be improved. Obviously there are limits to what can be done and to the game's scope, and I can suspend my disbelief through a lot...but changing the game to be less plausible, to require greater, suspension of disbelief, is going to require far more than a half-hearted appeal to those that are morally outraged that someone else can interrupt their rigid personal narrative, for me to not complain about it.

I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your post. I think we may share a vision of Elite as more than a space shooter or simulation but as a virtual world with an internal logic and persistent virtual identities. To my mind, Elite clearly has the capacity to grow in this direction. it will not, however, if it continues or is further optimized for griefers who drag down the experience for everyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

WOW TL;DR and lots of waaaaaaaaaayy off-topic points.

Anyways - back to OP.

Errrmmm - armchair psychology aside I was actually rather pleased to read Sandy's comments. The system they are proposing is a step in the right direction and can fit within ED Lore i feel. It is rather similar to an idea I proposed a while ago in the suggestions board which means either
1) i am awesome and FDev owe me a job OR more likely
2) a system that balances aggressive behaviour is a rather common sense based system

I like that the proposed system accepts that PVP is not 'bad', accepts that actions are scaled and ongoing (whats the rate of karma decay Sandy?), and works to margnialise anarchists to anarchy sectors, which means the lawful should be safe in high sec systems with safety levels decreasing out to anarchic systems.

if they get this system running it can certainly be built upon for other things - which also adds potential lasting benefit. Does it meet the 80/20 rule - i think it does, is it workable, i think it is, and does it make 'sense' without discriminating against gameplay styles - i think it does.

Two thumbs up FDEV.

Reasonable people can disagree. I'm glad we are aligned on the direction of Frontier's efforts. Do have a look at the science journalism and monographs I posted earlier. They will lead you into a wealth of academic research that indicates this is not arm-chair psychology, but a serious concern of professions across the disciplines that study gaming, online culture, and virtual identity.

 

[Delilah]

Personally I don't participate in any PvP in Elite. Just cause I don't wanna. But it bugs me when people are seriously angry about having their pretend space ship blown up. It just lacks perspective.

Today I had to rush home from work 4 hours early because my son's insulin pump started throwing up weird errors. It's an $8000 device that keeps him alive. One that we cannot afford to replace. So my experience with grief today would be begging my boss to leave early so I can rush to his school and diagnose the problem before things quickly get worse. Not having my T9 blown up.

It's just a stupid game folks.

I'm sorry to hear about your son's situation.

Recall that this thread is not comparing grief (as in emotional loss, fear, etc.) in real and virtual life. It is rather about the "moral psychology" of those that grief within Elite (different meaning as folks have previously pointed out) and the detrimental impacts this has on people, especially those who are new.

I'd like to think that your son might be able to enjoy Elite at some time without being victimized by griefers.

 

[Morbad]

The only people being griefed are those that took the time to actually read that ridiculous OP lmao

Yeah, but did he combat log when you shot back?

Recently, I flew to Maia with a friend to check out alien activity and he was killed by a well known griefer upon entering the system. He was flying in an unarmed Asp whilst the griefer was in an FDL. Surely this act is not "playing the game"?

It absolutely is playing the game and no proposed facet of this karma outline would do much to punish the aggressor in the situation described.

This was an anarchy system. It's run by a ruthless pirate faction that barely cares what happens to their own starport, and they don't extend much in the way of protection to tourists.

it will not, however, if it continues or is further optimized for griefers who drag down the experience for everyone else.

I agree, but optimizing too overtly against them and sacrificing other aspects in the process will damn the game even faster.

 

[Delilah]

optimizing too overtly against them and sacrificing other aspects in the process will damn the game even faster.

I'm sympathetic to your concerns, but this is an assertion that is not necessarily true.

EVE has high to low sec space, concord, IFF, armed star gates, etc. and pvp thrives. I have intimate experience with this leading a largish pvp group in EVE. So the idea that Elite can develop a set of tools that mitigates griefing -- even if it can't always prevent it -- is not unreasonable.

Having said that, I think like you I don't want to neuter pvp . Its about striking a balance -- perfection being the enemy of the good. If we can do our best to remove or move on the griefer element in Elite, then I hope we will strengthen pvp and the ability of pilots to fly in open.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

They are supposed to entertain. So when some griefing idiot blows you up for no reason, then you stop having fun. If the reason they play is ruin other peoples experience, then how are people who dont want to do those things supposed to play? I can tell you how they play now. They disappear into Private and Solo and we never see them again. If games were not fun then they would not be games.

Just because you specifically did not build your PC for Elite or video games in general, just puts you in the minority of the PC gaming community. Everyone else would like to get value for their investment. Most people on the planet cant just buy new hardware, software, and games on a whim. Just because it seems you can doesnt mean that everyone else has to measure up to your standard or lack thereof.

To the first part - at the very least, you have acknowledge what is a larger part of a very complex problem, known by the ancient adage: "One man's mead is another man's poison."
Those engaging in this sort of disruptive behavior are being entertained, even, and especially if, that entertainment comes at the cost of someone else's entertainment.

However, this IS an actual function of the current Elite universe. This sort of thing happens because it CAN.

Now, could something be done about this sort of thing, right now? Sure there are a few things that could be done.
1. Host such events in Private Groups, with a sign-up list. Those who have earned reputations for being disruptive do not get invited to participate. Those who become disruptive are ejected. There would be some salt because of this, but the only correct response to it is: "Tough, you brought it on yourself."

2. A little behind-the-scenes god-modding - a handful of Event Security ships with Station-powered weapons, and some shields that make modded Prismatics look like paper to enforce the rules, run by internal staff that only engage those being disruptive. The only real and correct way to deal with a "bully" is to beat him so badly the gods cannot recognize him. Then they stop.

To the second part - Part of what makes a game is the risk. If there is no risk, there is no game. Let's look at a few games:

Solitaire - the risk is that the card(s) you need are buried and inaccessible, or simply do not come up in the draw, and you will inevitably lose.
Xiangqi - (sorry if you don't know what this is, look it up, learn it, and enjoy!) The risk is that you will be defeated, regardless of your strategy.
Elite - You might get blown up.

If you knew you'd always win at Solitaire or Xiangqi you'd likely stop playing, as these games would become incredibly boring. Maybe you're OK with boring, but sooner or later you'll probably wonder if there isn't something else to play. The same holds true in Elite - if you knew you'd never be blown up, never fail a mission, always make that mission deadline - there quickly comes a point where there is no longer a point.

Now, I do also understand that there are some people out there who simply cannot abide playing a game where there is any chance they will not always be victorious - and there have been parts of the gaming industry to capitalize on this - remember the Game Genie? Or "cheat codes"? TGM in the game console? Some people are unable to play any other way, and honestly, I feel bad for them. Life without risk is not life.

But do not misunderstand me either - I have no tolerance for @holes. In the analog world, I'm a concealed carry holder, because we don't live in a Disney movie, and life is risk.
As for what people can or can't buy - that has virtually no bearing on this conversation. If Elite and the PC that runs it represents the sum of someone's playing investment, that's perfectly fine - Elite is a wonderful place, full of all manner of things to do.
It so happens I opted not to participate in either the charity stream nor the Salami event - because there were other things I wanted to do. I donate plenty to charities annually, and I even get off my duff, roll up my sleeves and do charity work myself. I've installed water heaters, delivered blankets, clothes, food, counsel, spiritual and moral support to those in need on a regular basis. Not patting myself on the back here, just putting it out there that while donating money or materials is great, donating time is just as important.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

C+P was never intended to be a worthless feature that nobody gave a damn about. It just languished because other stuff took development priority. Players have enjoyed exploiting the system for this long, and like any exploit in a game, it is eventually patched.

 

[4gui4]

Pardon me if I misunderstand, but are you saying the devs of Elites cover for or promote griefers because of personal friendships?

that's what I'm saying too, should not believe in me, start your own research
It's a shame you can't find a big conspiracy, is not the case...but they know each other and play together ... which your conclusion?

The Salomé episode doesn't teach you anything? Coincidence ... any favoritism? [alien]

 

[Faybs]

that's what I'm saying too, should not believe in me, start your own research
It's a shame you can't find a big conspiracy, is not the case...but they know each other and play together ... which your conclusion?

The Salomé episode doesn't teach you anything? Coincidence ... any favoritism? [alien]

Or the incredible amount of time the premium ammo bug stayed around for - only got fixed when someone blabbed about it on the forums. A permanent 30% damage bonus, only for those in the know. Frontier has been and is being socially engineered by a group that's been shown to be very good at it.

 

[Candy Man]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link. FD are based in Cambridge and Josh accent appears local to the area...
Even if that is the case, why would FD shoot themselves in the foot by allowing the unsociable to drive off paying customers and why have they not done something about this sooner?
They must believe their better off pandering to the anti-social elements. Which in itself posses another question. 'Will the CandP system be fit for purpose or will it be simply a veil to pull over our eyes'.
I know what I believe.