Code action against CoR

[Harley Quinn]

Stolen goods could be made more valuable while avoiding exploits by simply adding X credits to both the buy and sell value of every commodity. The profit margin for buying and selling them would remain the same, but being able to sell them without having bought them first would be much more lucrative.

The two downsides I can see are that newer players would have a harder time bankrolling an entry into trading, and being destroyed with a hold full of goods would become much more financially damaging. The first problem could probably be overcome by leaving some cheaper commodities in place, but giving them lower profit margins to discourage anybody but new players from dealing in them. I'm not sure the second problem is actually a problem at all, at least not once there's a karma system in place to discourage randomly destroying traders.

Edit: Actually, it would make mining much more profitable as well. But that could be handled by lowering asteroid yields to result in the same profit for a given amount of mining time.

What we need is anarchy systems with no black market who pay the same price for everything and in other systems where a black market exists it should discriminate on price to pay a lot less for what they produce, less for items they have no buy order for, more for what they need and a lot more for illegals.

So that agricultural station in a high population system selling food would be paying you next to nothing for fruit & veg, less than they would on the open market for ores they don't really need, but be paying more for those premium consumer items they have a buy order sitting on the main boards for hundreds of thousands but can't get filled and a lot more for the narcotics and such like.

 

[Goose4291]

What we need is anarchy systems with no black market who pay the same price for everything and in other systems where a black market exists it should discriminate on price to pay a lot less for what they produce, less for items they have no buy order for, more for what they need and a lot more for illegals.

So that agricultural station in a high population system selling food would be paying you next to nothing for fruit & veg, less than they would on the open market for ores they don't really need, but be paying more for those premium consumer items they have a buy order sitting on the main boards for hundreds of thousands but can't get filled and a lot more for the narcotics and such like.

Back. Had a bit of a busy day yesterday so missed most of this discussion.

You're right in this regard. Anarchy factions should have normal markets which trade in all goods regardless of their stolen state, because oddly with the way the BGS is engineered, you're actually hurting the controlling faction selling ill gotten wares there, which of course reduces the number of anarchies.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I like trading, I like exploring, I like mission running, occasionally I might even go and have a scrap with some NPCs......

I will play my game the way I want to play it, without affecting anyone, without disrupting anyone else's game, in short - without ing anyone else off....

While I too play in Mobius, respect the rights of people to want to be left alone and I am anti mode invasion, you do realise that for anybody playing the BGS you are affecting that every time you sell exploration data, run a mission, fight an NPC or trade don't you?

This means that unless you are flying around doing nothing and earning no creds you are affecting people and what they are trying to do with the BGS and doing it from a mode where you are completely safe from them using ingame options to stop you.

There is no easy option for this, and whatever FD do someone will be unhappy.

But I think you should recognise that you are having an impact on some PVP/open groups, 30,000 players doing the same as you has an even bigger impact, and as such people do have valid reasons to complain about people being able to have an impact on them and their game while being safe from any direct action to stop them.

It's not black and white and this whole argument will continue to run its endless course until both sides recognise that they each have valid concerns.

 

[Goose4291]

Thought that was what you meant, you see, that tracks player behaviour over long periods of time and finds trends, so yeah, your claim of pirates getting insta killed for pirating another player is indeed hyperbole laced nonsense. In fact the only guys claiming the karma system is like that are some PVP'ers who are frightened that their uber engineered wing, consequence free safe space may come to an end.

Not true. Most people I know railing against the Karma system are doing so because Sandro was suggesting shadowbans being thrown around for what is a legitimate (and some argue, encouraged by marketing) gameplay choices.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Not true. Most people I know railing against the Karma system are doing so because Sandro was suggesting shadowbans being thrown around for what is a legitimate (and some argue, encouraged by marketing) gameplay choices.

Shadowbans are a hamfisted 'solution' and should only be used in cases of harrasment and such.

In game actions -> in game consequences. If shadowbans are proposed as solution I be railing as well.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Not true. Most people I know railing against the Karma system are doing so because Sandro was suggesting shadowbans being thrown around for what is a legitimate (and some argue, encouraged by marketing) gameplay choices.

Shadowbans are a hamfisted 'solution' and should only be used in cases of harrasment and such.

In game actions -> in game consequences. If shadowbans are proposed as solution I be railing as well.

It's interesting how everybody reads something different in S. Sammarcos comments.
I got the impression that Mr. Sammarco wants to use in-game consequences as much as possible and avoid out-of-game consequences even for out-of-game actions (he explicitly mentioned combat logging).

The problem with "legitimate gameplay" choices is, that they are only "legitimate" as long as the developer things they should be "legitimate".
If those "legitimate gameplay" choices are over used and result in problems for the overall game, then some regulations about how often those "legitimate gameplay" choices can be done might be needed.
Regulating activities is usually a method to keep it possible to do that activity instead of downright ban it.

The usual bad analogy:
A lake with a lot of fish.
Fishing is allowed and marketing praises the lake as a nice place for camping, swimming and fishing.
Some visitors want to do only fishing and want to do it extremely efficient and don't care about those who want to swim and camp.
This causes disruptions between the visitors.
The amount of fishing results in fish going almost extinct in that lake.

Now what should the owner of the lake do?
Doing nothing would result in no fish and nobody can keep fishing.
Restrict the amount of fishing would preserve the fish population in the lake and would allow those interested in fishing to keep fishing. Less fishing allows other visitors to swim in the lake without constantly having to evade those who want to fish in their speed boats.

End of bad analogy

 

[Harley Quinn]

Shadowbans are a hamfisted 'solution' and should only be used in cases of harrasment and such.

In game actions -> in game consequences. If shadowbans are proposed as solution I be railing as well.

Agreed. A proper lasting C&P system that can't just be solved by a suicidewinder is needed.

It needs to scale so that that odd bit of friendly fire with nobody losing a ship doesn't see you hunted across the whole galaxy for ever, but taking out hundreds of a factions ships can't be solved by a few K on rebuy.

Needs stations and npc reaction to standing thrown into the mix too for that long term effect.

I would like to see things such as systems that remember how you pirated the medical convoys they desperately needed and still have you either on a KOS list, no docking allowed list or leave you waiting for 30 minutes waiting for docking permission as that flight controller remembers friends and family who suffered while you were taking out the supplies they needed.

But then I would also like to see allied factions leaving you alone in anarchy systems as they are your allies and have the protection of the big boss and being given my favourite pad in an allied station rather than having to swing round the road blocks to the dodgy pads. Fed stations giving you a better service because while clean with them, you do have that million credit bounty from the imps.

And with PMFs existing, I would like a level set by the player groups for at least members, and preferably other PMFs that are foes and allies (both as PMFs and individuals if possible) that would override standard faction rep rules for Cmdrs

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

End of bad analogy

I would say most peoples' analogies on the forum are bad

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

I would say most peoples' analogies on the forum are bad

I would agree with you

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

PMFs

What is PMF ?

 

[Goose4291]

It's interesting how everybody reads something different in S. Sammarcos comments.
I got the impression that Mr. Sammarco wants to use in-game consequences as much as possible and avoid out-of-game consequences even for out-of-game actions (he explicitly mentioned combat logging).

The problem with "legitimate gameplay" choices is, that they are only "legitimate" as long as the developer things they should be "legitimate".
If those "legitimate gameplay" choices are over used and result in problems for the overall game, then some regulations about how often those "legitimate gameplay" choices can be done.
Regulating activities is usually a method to keep it possible to do that activity instead of downright ban it.

The usual bad analogy:
A lake with a lot of fish.
Fishing is allowed and marketing praises the lake as a nice place for camping, swimming and fishing.
Some visitors want to do only fishing and want to do it extremely efficient and don't care about those who want to swim and camp.
This causes disruptions between the visitors.
The amount of fishing results in fish going almost extinct in that lake.

Now what should the owner of the lake do?
Doing nothing would result in no fish and nobody can keep fishing.
Restrict the amount of fishing would preserve the fish population in the lake and would allow those interested in fishing to keep fishing. Less fishing allows other visitors to swim in the lake without constantly having to evade those who want to fish in their speed boats.

End of bad analogy

It was the (paraphrased) exchange below that set a few people off, including me:

PvP Player: You do realise any ingame mechanic punishments wont stop me playing the way I do?
Sandro: Well if ingame punishments wont work, we can always just implement out of game punishments, such as shadowbans.

Also you score poorly on the forum analogy scale. At no point have you referenced rapists, facist germans from the 1940's or the taliban

 

[babelfisch]

While I too play in Mobius, respect the rights of people to want to be left alone and I am anti mode invasion, you do realise that for anybody playing the BGS you are affecting that every time you sell exploration data, run a mission, fight an NPC or trade don't you?

This means that unless you are flying around doing nothing and earning no creds you are affecting people and what they are trying to do with the BGS and doing it from a mode where you are completely safe from them using ingame options to stop you.

There is no easy option for this, and whatever FD do someone will be unhappy.

But I think you should recognise that you are having an impact on some PVP/open groups, 30,000 players doing the same as you has an even bigger impact, and as such people do have valid reasons to complain about people being able to have an impact on them and their game while being safe from any direct action to stop them.

It's not black and white and this whole argument will continue to run its endless course until both sides recognise that they each have valid concerns.

People can stop him by playing the BGS, that's how it is intended. The BGS is a PvEvP system by design, you are doing it wrong if you think you need to kill him.

 

[Theodrid]

Not true. Most people I know railing against the Karma system are doing so because Sandro was suggesting shadowbans being thrown around for what is a legitimate (and some argue, encouraged by marketing) gameplay choices.

As a last resort Goose, nothing in my post you quoted is untrue, some, yes, some PVP'ers are using hyperbole to decry the system before it gets out of the door, no doubt in an attempt to get it dropped or watered down to obscurity. The post of mine you quoted, the guy I was responding to before his ninja edit was using such hyperbole. In fact Goose show me where Sandro said anybody would get banned for legitimate gameplay, he didn't, he clearly stated as an absolute last resort for disruptive trends over time.

It went the same way with ship transfers, a good few threads declaring 'oh my god's, ship transfer is broken, look how much it costs to transfer my entire corvette fleet fro Sol to Colonia', deliberately ignoring the fact that the vast majority of cases would be cheaper, quicker and not over such distances.

 

[babelfisch]

The usual bad analogy:
A lake with a lot of fish.
Fishing is allowed and marketing praises the lake as a nice place for camping, swimming and fishing.
Some visitors want to do only fishing and want to do it extremely efficient and don't care about those who want to swim and camp.
This causes disruptions between the visitors.
The amount of fishing results in fish going almost extinct in that lake.

Now what should the owner of the lake do?
Doing nothing would result in no fish and nobody can keep fishing.
Restrict the amount of fishing would preserve the fish population in the lake and would allow those interested in fishing to keep fishing. Less fishing allows other visitors to swim in the lake without constantly having to evade those who want to fish in their speed boats.

End of bad analogy

It would also make those who prefer to fish with dynamite leave the lake, which is why we always have these discussions. They just like to blow things up.

 

[Goose4291]

As a last resort Goose, nothing in my post you quoted is untrue, some, yes, some PVP'ers are using hyperbole to decry the system before it gets out of the door, no doubt in an attempt to get it dropped or watered down to obscurity. The post of mine you quoted, the guy I was responding to before his ninja edit was using such hyperbole.

It went the same way with ship transfers, a good few threads declaring 'oh my god's, ship transfer is broken, look how much it costs to transfer my entire corvette fleet fro Sol to Colonia', deliberately ignoring the fact that the vast majority of cases would be cheaper, quicker and not over such distances.

See I wouldnt call reacting badly to a developer casually floating the idea of shadowbans for legitimate ingame choices a hyperbolic reaction, as theyre reacting to an on record statement, not some grand overexageration.

 

[Harley Quinn]

What is PMF ?

player minor faction

 

[Theodrid]

See I wouldnt call reacting badly to a developer casually floating the idea of shadowbans for legitimate ingame choices a hyperbolic reaction, as theyre reacting to an on record statement, not some grand overexageration.

The reaction n itself isn't really a problem Goose, it's the fact that to prove a point some posters oversimplify it and go straight for the nuclear option of, "if I pirate someone I'm gonna get banned". This totally ignores the sliding scales and deterrents in terms of docking restrictions, system permit revokes, greater NPC responses and a whole myriad of other things in order to, in my opinion quite deliberately, make any proposal sound far more Draconian than it actually is.

 

[Harley Quinn]

People can stop him by playing the BGS, that's how it is intended. The BGS is a PvEvP system by design, you are doing it wrong if you think you need to kill him.

But Mobius does limit the P options in the PvEvP options available so they have a valid complaint.

Very difficult to address fairly for both sides, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid point

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

It was the (paraphrased) exchange below that set a few people off, including me:

PvP Player: You do realise any ingame mechanic punishments wont stop me playing the way I do?
Sandro: Well if ingame punishments wont work, we can always just implement out of game punishments, such as shadowbans.

You have the choice. Keep doing what you do until you can't do it anymore - because out of game punishments or the game died - or reduce the frequency of doing what you do and keep doing it.

The "legitimate" activities are - apparently, otherwise FD wouldn't consider restricting it - hurting the game. Chances will come, the question is how harsh these changes will be.
Trying to prevent the weakest possible restriction only results in getting harsher restrictions.

Also you score poorly on the forum analogy scale. At no point have you referenced rapists, facist germans from the 1940's or the taliban

You really don't want me to use such analogies.

Trigger warning!

Spoiler

They would make to much sense

Spoiler

(Just a joke, really, calm down. Just a joke. A bad on, but a joke)

 

[Powderpanic]

He says: "Word", you roll out, he activates, you roll into a warehouse to sell 'yo goods' and that's the end of your professional gangsta career.

Then you meet your charming cellmate Bubba who has a lot of inches of love for you, and the both of you live happily ever after.

What what, in the ...

Seeing as we are ED Straw manning here.

I would see the Goldie looking chains are now blinking or otherwise marked as stolen.

Go back to the store and shoot the assistant in the face, then go and dump the goods at my local fence. ( By shooting enough people in the face, eventually people start to learn how to just do as they are told )

As I said, Straight Up Murda! Gangsta!

Also in this Straw, the police are entirely inept and I can escape any law enforcement attempt by either driving in a straight line or selecting another city on my GPS and appearing there 15 seconds later.

Hustler!! Playa Playa! G-Unit!