PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Robert Maynard]

Aye, there have been suggestions made before. My personal favourite, along the lines of your own, is to have either a boost to Open contribution or similar that doesn't actually hamstring PG/Solo players. One of the big issues with the current implementation is that the best way to support your faction is, quite simply, within PG - even if you're a competitive supporter of the faction.

Solo/PG players as above obviously must retain the ability to support their faction. But either through direct reward changes, or as you say "Open only" or "PvP only" Czs with greater rewards, or something more intelligent (never said I was a game designer) it'd be nice to see competitive factions actually play competitively. It might do something to help the stagnation within PP.

'course, there's a substantial amount of work PP needs either way. In it's current implementation, I would say that PvP would be improved for PP's complete removal/reversal. Major-faction-wide bounties were far better for constructive PvP, and far more convincing as C/P.

Sandro mused about a Powerplay Open bonus multiplier (for the Power, in terms of merits delivered, not affecting player reward) some time ago - when asked, more recently, if anything had come of the musings he said no.

Even with what Sandro mused on there would have been no direct bonus received by the player - which is consistent with what Messrs. Brookes and Antonaci have previously said about the three game modes.

If the proposed way to get players to engage in a play-style equates to a bribe (the existence of which would probably not go down too well with a significant proportion of the player-base), is it worth it?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Trying to make PvP "Fit" into "my" ED is a really tough ask imo..

"my" vision of Elite how I play it there are not players, and there are not npcs... there are Pilots Federation members and then people who are not members of the pilots federation.

my entire interest in ED is for playing within the "lore" of it. I know some think i am obtuse and a "sad - meh imurshunish" but well, if so guilty as charged. when i am playing elite, I do not want to be playing a space pew pew game.

i want to forget i am playing a game at all and instead be a pilot flying my ship 1000 years in the future.. which is why the lore matters to me, it is why i loath telepresence and anything which rubs my face into the fact i am playing a game and why I hate where the devs clearly didnt consider the lore and just insert something "because videogame" . (VR really helps with all of this so if you think i am nuts, play the game for a few hrs in VR and maybe my "immershun" ways would not be so crazy.

but my (long winded) point is this.

IF FD want me to embrace PvP - and to be fair i do not think they care if i do so long as i buy their trinkets - but IF they do, then they are going to have to package it into a lore friendly part of the game somehow.

preferentially selecting targets because they are a hollow box is not going to cut it for me i am afraid, neither will things like removing the cost of destruction if I am PvPing ** because it makes no sense unless you go the "because videogame route" and given the lore about how the Pilots federation feels about shooting members of their own without a legal reason, IF I am going to embrace PvP in ED

it will only ever be from a pirates / bounty hunter view point.....

if folk want me to accept the "random serial killer" "role" in Elite then i am afraid that aint going to happen until after the game reacts to such roles in a sensible and plausible manner.

ED for me isnt an MMO.. it is my own personal Role Playing game which happens to have the option of other people in it.


***tho i think there could be an "in" here for missions where 1 faction supplies a ship with a view to go and attack another npc faction, and survive as long as i can as a distraction - insert ingame fluff here -

and the distraction i am causing in my throw away ship could be against other Pilots Federation members who have taken on a similar mission from their npc faction i suppose

 

[CMDR Carbo]

Since RNGineers PvP is basically dead for me. IMO the prerequisites for PvP are just too high now.
Especially for people like me where PvP is not my main focus of the game, but who mainly enjoy some casual PvP.

It used to be much easier. You could go to any station, put some PvP ship build together, take it into battle and get destroyed royally.
Then back at the station, you made some changes, and after some time you usually could hold your own.

Now this takes so much more time because of engineers.
You put together a PvP build and go grind for all those mats for you sweet G5 mods with incendiary, thermal, corrosive or whatever effects.
That's nice for somebody whose main interest is PvP, but for someone like me, after 2 hours of grinding mats my PvP urge is mostly gone, and I hop into my AspX or Conda and fly off into unexplored space.

 

[StiTch]

If the proposed way to get players to engage in a play-style equates to a bribe (the existence of which would probably not go down too well with a significant proportion of the player-base), is it worth it?

If this is one-dimensional perception is all you can approach the topic with, is it worth you actually discussing it?

Take this from a broader perspective. This wasn't about "muhahaha, take what you can away from PG players!", it was "well all sides of the player base complain about the lack of constructive PvP, so what can we do for it? Well how about taking an aspect of combat designed to be competitive and actually making it competitive, instead of the de facto stance being to grind mercilessly in PG to match the same grind the other sides are doing in PG?"

I don't care how that's done or what your beloved FD said (the bits of course not including their statements that murder is entirely acceptable gameplay and that ED allows you to "just hunt other CMDRs in a cutthroat galaxy"). Really haven't got the energy for incessant complaints about truly inessential aspects of the conversation. If you're actually interested in constructive PvP conversation awesome, but I'm thoroughly bored of "playing chess with a pigeon".

That's nice for somebody whose main interest is PvP

Take that back; a lot of the PvP folks think it's absolutely not fine

 

[Jex =TE=]

As someone who spent a lot of time in games like WoT and Warthunder i would have to ask that question too.
Completely different games of course, but undoubtedly qualify as PvP games.
I certainly feel challenged plenty in them, and without incurring gut wrenching losses which potentially nullify weeks of previously spent game time.
Nothing against games which do that, but it certainly isn't a prerequisite for challenging PvP, let alone entertaining PvP.

I play mostly PVP games - I've played WoT, WoWarships, IL2, Falcon, Just about every FPS out there, Red Orchestra tanking PVP (if you think WoT is good, this was amazing. It's a first person shooter but you're sat in the tank with your mates giving them orders if you're the commander. Setting up ambushes - probably the most PVP fun I ever had )

ED doesn't offer any challenge. The games you mentioned can have you dead in seconds if you make a stupid move. In those games, you're out to kill the other player but in ED, PVP games seem to go on forever and then someone hyperjumps. There's no "maps" to learn in space. You don't have to think about armour angling, side scraping, crew training (of any note), consumables, what mods to take (gun rammer, coated optics etc) - and when you're out there, you have to keep an eye on the objectives. You have a game to win - that's the part that challenges you. You have objectives and if you all die, you lose the game.

In ED if you die, you hit rebuy and what? The 500 million you made in a couple of weeks got a little scracth in it? OK, off to quince for an hour - sorted!

With money being meaningless in ED - the rebuy screen is nothing. I think in my Viper right now I could go through a thousand rebuy screens before I'd run out of money so the rebuy screen is only a thing if you're stupid enough to fly without insurance.

Nobody is "taking weeks" to get that money back and I think this goes towards why ED PVP is boring, and the other reasons I listed above. War Thunder and WoT offer so much more in the way of challenge because they have strategy and because you need knowledge.

Think of this - I can log onto an ED database and find what I need to make a meta roll. Does it matter on what ship I'm fitting out or is it still only the fer de lance as an option?

If I want to be good at WoT - I need to know how the spotting mechanic works. I need to train my crews up. I need to know how camoflauge works, how the bush cover system works. I need to know all the other tanks and what they're capable of - how much armour I have, what's their pen values. I also need to be able to watch the map and react to it if a flank falls (you must watch Jingles vids, right? )

ED you turn in circles for 30 mins and then one of you teleports out - weeee what excitment! What thrill! Meh,.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...Being victim in ED is ludicrously punishing, with absolutely laughable consequence to the attacker, it feeds salt, and it makes players adversely react, which ultimately the more poisonous players need to make themselves feel better.

It really is rather ludicrous.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If this is one-dimensional perception is all you can approach the topic with, is it worth you actually discussing it?

What else would you call such a bonus?

Take this from a broader perspective. This wasn't about "muhahaha, take what you can away from PG players!", it was "well all sides of the player base complain about the lack of constructive PvP, so what can we do for it? Well how about taking an aspect of combat designed to be competitive and actually making it competitive, instead of the de facto stance being to grind mercilessly in PG to match the same grind the other sides are doing in PG?"

Implementing constructive PvP need not include inducements (over and above normal combat rewards) to engage in it - for some the ability to regularly find willing opponents would probably be sufficient.

I don't care how that's done or what your beloved FD said (the bits of course not including their statements that murder is entirely acceptable gameplay and that ED allows you to "just hunt other CMDRs in a cutthroat galaxy"). Really haven't got the energy for incessant complaints about truly inessential aspects of the conversation. If you're actually interested in constructive PvP conversation awesome, but I'm thoroughly bored of "playing chess with a pigeon".

No-one's walking on the board here....

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

, but I'm thoroughly bored of "playing chess with a pigeon".

everything else aside, whether i agree or disagree with you, as a person who loved a comedy analogy, I love the playing chess with a pigeon one, it actually works so well for most forum arguments.

 

[SP_Predicador]

I'm a pve player, but I think pvp and pvpers are really needed in this game. But in my opinion, pvp is not really popular amongst who don't like to do pvp, because this is a lawless game, in wich being pvpeer is not dangerous, apart from being defeated for a more powerful enemy pvpeer. Playing in open can be frustrating to pveer players. Bring rules and sanctions, both in game (police forces, stations sanctions, pilot fed sanctions, insurance costs, military armadas, worthy of the name...) an after the game (rules, real sanctions to ganking and griefing, stop engineers exploits...). Give benefits to game in open pve: cgs, power play.... so we can all, healthy coexist together.

 

[Iskariot]

I think powerplay was a missed opportunity to provide an area of the game that was PvP focused without impacting on those who are not interested. There could have been a whole layer of the game that was for PvP and give the PvPers something to fight over.

But that is exactly what I do not want to happen.
I want Powerplay to be more integrated in soloist gameplay too.
I want to do missions for powers for example, I want to rank up with my Power, earn stuff, get access to otherwise locked areas, get more secretive personal missions, get special ships etc. etc.

The PvP aspect of Powerplay is fine for those who like that stuff, but I do not care about it at all.

I wish PvE and PvP where completely separate games to be honest. That would give the devs the opportunity to create much more interesting story arcs and mrchanism in the game that would activate by actions of the individual players. It will never happen, I know.

 

[krueger.freddy]

my thought is that if a PvE Pilot gets killed by a PvP Killer that the penalty is all on the PvE Player side.
He has to buy a new ship, he has the lost cargo, he loses his Data an Reputation.
While the PvP dosn't face that issue. his penalty for killing is a minor Fee he can ignore.

Sent from the mobile client - Forum Talker

 

[Simon Darkstep]

I enjoy the sensation of sinking into the setting and becoming immersed in it.

PVP that's basically spawn-pewpew-boom-respawn can be amusing, but it doesn't feel immersive to me. CQC averts that somewhat because it's a sports game inside the setting, so I've been trying to join a match once in a while before I hop into my own ship to run a mission or whatever.

 

[Han_Zen]

Aye, there have been suggestions made before. My personal favourite, along the lines of your own, is to have either a boost to Open contribution or similar that doesn't actually hamstring PG/Solo players wanting to legit support their factions from the sidelines. One of the big issues with the current implementation is that the best way to support your faction is, quite simply, within PG - even if you're a competitive supporter of the faction.

Solo/PG players as above obviously must retain the ability to support their faction. But either through direct reward changes, or as you say "Open only" or "PvP only" Czs with greater rewards, or something more intelligent (never said I was a game designer) it'd be nice to see competitive factions actually play competitively. It might do something to help the stagnation within PP.

'course, there's a substantial amount of work PP needs either way. In its current implementation, I would say that PvP would be improved for PP's complete removal/reversal. Major-faction-wide bounties were far better for constructive PvP, and far more convincing as C/P.

I much prefer 'PvP only' instances to any 'Open Only' benefits. Open Only puts things in the hands of the instancing gods and open up for abuse of block lists and network shenanigans. 'PvP only' instances would mean that even if you enter them from Solo or PG, you would end up in a PvP environment. It would give access to 'controlled PvP' even for players that usually stays in Solo.

 

[StiTch]

everything else aside, whether i agree or disagree with you, as a person who loved a comedy analogy, I love the playing chess with a pigeon one, it actually works so well for most forum arguments.

Honestly, I may end up on a few terrorist KoS lists for saying this, but when you strip hysteria aside the flak that people have with PvP is often shared by PvPers.

It'd be cool to think that we could progress PvP in, you know, an actual progressive sense, but pretty much any discussion on PvE/PvP/game modes follows the FD forum rule number one: "for all threads, as the conversation progresses, the probability the conversation will become a repetitive argument about ganking tends towards 1"

I much prefer 'PvP only' instances to any 'Open Only' benefits. Open Only puts things in the hands of the instancing gods and open up for abuse of block lists and network shenanigans. 'PvP only' instances would mean that even if you enter them from Solo or PG, you would end up in a PvP environment. It would give access to 'controlled PvP' even for players that usually stays in Solo.

Not so much something unobtainable in PG, but instead making it so that in some form you progress your faction more strongly from within Open.

It's not about giving people the opportunity to PvP, it's about taking something that's intended to be highly competitive and requiring it to be competitive IF your main goal is to progress your faction.

If you are fighting for your own gratification or just want to support that fit blue-haired chick as a loner from Solo, absolutely fine.

What's not fine in the landscape of PP is that the best way for a dedicated power faction to progress their power is to do the work in PG where you're hidden. If players truly interested in pushing the tide for their faction want to do so, you would add a lot more constructive PvP and a lot more movement to PP by making that side of it competitive - i.e. to achieve full results for the progression of your power, you have to do so where you can be countered. Then true system blockades and wing combat within Open become critical; a side that can hold out the system in Open and keep the opposing side out is far more likely to achieve their goal.

EDIT: Of course if there's the chance of PvP CZs with a bonus towards this, accessible from Solo/PG so all players have the opportunity to partake in it, then you have my unrelenting support.

 

[MarkAusten]

but I'm thoroughly bored of "playing chess with a pigeon".

Ah Ha!

So you admit that not only can you play chess but that you play it with a chicken!

The boards must get very messy at times...

 

[Muetdhiver]

No idea. But here is why I don't really do PvP anymore :

1) No in-game justification for it. I mean, when I was playing powerplay, we had to actually tell the other side that we would do a convoy with escort in open. So that something happens...
1b) Since there is no justification/invective/support for meaningfull PvP, a lot of PvP is the nonsense kind that can be observed near CG's and Engineers. Makes sense, because that is the only place where one is garanteed to find ships to attack...
2) The engineers have made the whole PvP thing too time consuming for me. Going in with a 10-30% disadvantage is guaranteed death if the the other guy is a decent pilot. And that is before considering ships stacked with god-rolls from the exploit.
3) PvP Piracy not working. That means that if one wants to play a bad guy, the whole thing is about killing other players. Robbing them is not really supported at this point.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think Open only Powerplay would be a good move. The obvious downside of course is, you'd be denying all those who have invested a lot of time in their factions with PvE.

.... not to mention that there'd be a likely reduction in those playing it - and Powerplay would already seem to be challenging in relation to featuring on the prioritised list of features to devote Dev effort to due to lack of players.

 

[Breeze]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts.

For me, I like the adventure of discovering ‘what is out there’ now I know content is slim at the moment but the fact remains. I will NEVER get in a spaceship and explore the universe/galaxy in my lifetime as much as would love to. ED gives me the opportunity to do that, find weird systems and sometime amazing glitches that add to the experience.
I’ve never seen Elite as an opportunity to sit in my backyard and shoot other players, the galaxy is too big to waste time with that in my opinion.
There are thousands of games out there where the purpose is to shoot each other and do it very well. ED gives me a Galaxy to explore, why on earth would I want to do peew pew when there is a Galaxy to discover? (I’ll repeat at this point that I am aware content is thin on the ground for exploring) But at least I can find cool places to re-visit when content is added.

TLDR?
Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

Elite Dangerous is a fantastic game, one of the best game I played in my life, but it's PVP side is completely garbage, open play is a toxic place where you can be killed everywhere and anywhere by griefers without consequence for the aggressors, due to the useless crime/punishment system.
That's the reason why I don't play open/PVP

Thanx God Mobius exists to avoid this shame

 

[CenturionPuch]

In ED PvP is all about who has the bigger-better ship with the better modules engineered to the max. That means whoever spent more time grinding will win every time.

So,while I spend my limited play time on ED, would i want to feed lulz to some 15 years old on summer break with the time of the universe on his hand? F No

 

[Ian Skippy]

Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

Most people think most others are like them. It is often not the case, and in this instance we just dont know. However, based on this forum, PR material, reviews and streamers many, many people do seem very much interested in space combat, which undermines your idea. Maybe not PvP, but why many prefer PvE combat vs PvP combat in ED is a complicated topic that probably deserves its own topic.