General / Off-Topic The Two Major Enemies of a Free Society

[Boomer Kay]

libertarian fantasy

The libertarian illusion.

The one thing US conservatives constantly get completely wrong at the most basic level is that the sort of "no government" they hold dear as illusion is in it's extreme implementation anarchic (the absence of higher power).
Which is an awesome idea - but the human individual as well as the absence of human swarm intelligence makes it completely un-implementable*) and those "appeal to authority (withouth the slightest idea what they're talking about)" dudes and their drone like following are living proof.

*) there have been studies in decisionmaking and gaming theory, which as result found that about 1/3 of the test subjects chose the option that did not give them any advantage for the sheer result of putting their co-subjects in an even worse situation. Literally too fricking stupid to act in their own self-interest.

 

[hairychris]

The libertarian illusion.

The one thing US conservatives constantly get completely wrong at the most basic level is that the sort of "no government" they hold dear as illusion is in it's extreme implementation anarchic (the absence of higher power).
Which is an awesome idea - but the human individual as well as the absence of human swarm intelligence makes it completely un-implementable*) and those "appeal to authority (withouth the slightest idea what they're talking about)" dudes and their drone like following are living proof.

*) there have been studies in decisionmaking and gaming theory, which as result found that about 1/3 of the test subjects chose the option that did not give them any advantage for the sheer result of putting their co-subjects in an even worse situation. Literally too fricking stupid to act in their own self-interest.

What annoys me about the extreme libertarians is that they all seem to expect that they will be the ones with the "power of self determination" but in most cases they'd simply be the grease for someone else's wheels.

 

[Boomer Kay]

What annoys me about the extreme libertarians is that they all seem to expect that they will be the ones with the "power of self determination" but in most cases they'd simply be the grease for someone else's wheels.

And if they're not powerfully self determined yet, it's always those "darn regulations holding them back".

 

[hairychris]

Bee(in) part of a hive tend to have this effect

Destroying part of the ecosystem because you can't put an economic value on it and then finding out that it supported a whole lot of other stuff that is perceived as valuable is pure hubris.

Something that hardcore libertarians are very good at.

 

[hairychris]

And if they're not powerfully self determined yet, it's always those "darn regulations holding them back".

They'll also be the ones moaning when a logging company with hired goons decides that it wants to cut down their bit of forest for a bit more profit in the brave new world. [hehe]

 

[Boomer Kay]

They'll also be the ones moaning when a logging company with hired goons decides that it wants to cut down their bit of forest for a bit more profit in the brave new world. [hehe]

Does remind me of those old western movies with the farmers and the ranchers. That sort of stuff: https://fiftieswesterns.wordpress.com/ (which I'd call a libertarian 'fantasy' - being born in soviet communist ironcurtainstan, liberal fantasies were a good offset to the mehness of everyday life)

Interchangeably one side was "good" and the other "evil" (depending where the A star played on). Either the good farmers defended their fields from the evil ranchers who trampled their harvest on their treck to laredo or the evil farmers put barbed wire in the way of the 'free' cowboys on their treck to laredo.
All had to be settled with guns of course (and the 'winner' still died at 40 due to lung cancer or appendix, but that was never shown).

Two libertarians met in the prairie - both died. [knocked out][knocked out]

 

[lysan]

Destroying part of the ecosystem because you can't put an economic value on it and then finding out that it supported a whole lot of other stuff that is perceived as valuable is pure hubris.

Something that hardcore libertarians are very good at.

My lifestyle probably make a lighter footprint on this earth than yours do

(that's not fact checked BTW just my assumption)

 

[Boomer Kay]

My lifestyle probably make a lighter footprint on this earth than yours do

(that's not fact checked BTW just my assumption)

Nah. 'Muricans just have a very weak grasp of the entire clusterbazoogle that they're indirectly responsible for (hint, that's "your" aircraft carriers there: http://www.journalalternativemedien.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/us-flugzeugträger-im-hafen.jpg .. I know, I know, they look like "freedom" - til they fire up ze engines).

Carbon Dioxide "footprint":

And no worries, Germany is not that much better in many regards:

 

[lysan]

I said MY footprint, not the USA or others, my footprint not a collective, me as a single "unit".

 

[Boomer Kay]

I said MY footprint, not the USA or others, my footprint not a collective, me as a single "unit".

Yea, you as a US citizen.
You could of cause join a progressive party and try to lower the overall footprint of the US, which would in turn lower your invidual footprint.
Til then, it's yours - and your children's and grandchildrens (if you have any, if not, someone else will 'inherit' it - same with federal debt). ^^

Freedom isn't free and dying for it doesn't pay the bills.

 

[lysan]

Yea, you as a US citizen.
You could of cause join a progressive party and try to lower the overall footprint of the US, which would in turn lower your invidual footprint.
Til then, it's yours - and your children's and grandchildrens (if you have any, if not, someone else will 'inherit' it - same with federal debt). ^^

Sorry but I don't recognize what other people do as something I'm involved in. Unless I do it myself, it's not something I do.

My car is not driven by fossil fuel, my house is not using more energy than it creates, my garbage is recycled 100%
I grow most of our food, and we don't eat meat from animals coming from big farms.

Of course we do own all the modern electrical domestic equipment known to man, but when we buy it, we try to get the most efficient ones.

So my footprint is pretty small or light on the environment, I really don't consider myself a part of any collective in these matters.

And the federal debt is not mine, I didn't make it, and they can keep it

 

[FuzzySpider]

Sorry but I don't recognize what other people do as something I'm involved in. Unless I do it myself, it's not something I do.

You live on planet earth. It is impossible for people to not be involved with each other.

 

[Boomer Kay]

My car is not driven by fossil fuel,

More electricity created by coal than the entire consumption in the 70ies:

Sorry but I don't recognize what other people do as something I'm involved in. Unless I do it myself, it's not something I do.

Recognizing your existence as part of society is about as meaningful as the dude in the video recognizing the bee's "value" for mother nature.

 

[lysan]

You live on planet earth. It is impossible for people to not be involved with each other.

You can ask people to be in a certain way, but unless it threatens you, you can't really do anything about it.

If my neighbour burns toxic materials and the smoke pollutes my space, yes i can tell that person to stop doing it. if he doesn't I can use force to stop it. Now that would probably make him a bit unfriendly towards me, so I should expect some kind of reaction by doing it.

Or I could show this person how to get the toxic materials neutralized so it doesn't harm me, or the person in question.

if you are thinking of this kind of involvement sure you're involved, but I don't consider it as something i per automatic need to be involved in.

 

[Boomer Kay]

if you are thinking of this kind of involvement sure you're involved, but I don't consider it as something i per automatic need to be involved in.

That's why you have representative government.

 

[lysan]

That's why you have representative government.

And that is fine as long as they are kept on a small scale

 

[Boomer Kay]

And that is fine as long as they are kept on a small scale

A statement which you couldn't quantify.

 

[Whipley]

Ah Milton Friedman, whose economic policies were so popular in Chile that the government had to resort to murder, imprisonment, torture, and exile of dissidents in order to implement them.

 

[hairychris]

You can ask people to be in a certain way, but unless it threatens you, you can't really do anything about it.

If my neighbour burns toxic materials and the smoke pollutes my space, yes i can tell that person to stop doing it. if he doesn't I can use force to stop it. Now that would probably make him a bit unfriendly towards me, so I should expect some kind of reaction by doing it.

Or I could show this person how to get the toxic materials neutralized so it doesn't harm me, or the person in question.

if you are thinking of this kind of involvement sure you're involved, but I don't consider it as something i per automatic need to be involved in.

Or the neighbour burns stuff, has way more force than you available, and doesn't care what you think.

What now?

Libertarians always think that they can fight back SUCCESSFULLY. This is the problem.

EDIT: To be clear, you can 1) suck it up, 2) die, 3) move. Unless, well, maybe there's some sort of resident's organization with enough force to keep potential incursion under control as well as internal control. Very good, you have just invented your basic feudal warlord as someone would want to be in charge.

Yes, yes, blah blah about the state as an actor of force. If everyone is an actor of force, well, welcome to Somalia, the libertarian paradise!

(Sorry, lots of edits for clarification here)

 

[Boomer Kay]

Or the neighbour burns stuff, has way more force than you available, and doesn't care what you think.

Nah, worst case scenario: none of the two of them know it's toxic (why bother with the EPA and all their 'checks'), both of them die, or get disabled or sick children.

If anyone thinks the "good old times" were that good, one just has to look into stuff like lead paint, asbestos and DDT.
They were toxic trash right from their invention, but it took decades to identify and regulate them. You were/are sitting on a timebomb without even knowing it.
"ignorance" might be "bliss", but it's also the greatest danger to a free society. And even worse - ignorance of ignorace.

Current discussion here: water price will rise about 40%ish, because phosphate levels are so high thanks to over-urination of fields, which gets deeper and deeper into the water supplies, which require better and better water treatment facility to cope with the pollution and get it to "can wash your face with it" levels. [knocked out]
(that's the stuff I'm talking bout .. pure animal pee pee: http://www.wz.de/polopoly_fs/1.9009...gen/derivatives/landscape_550/onlineImage.jpg )

My car is not driven by fossil fuel, my house is not using more energy than it creates, my garbage is recycled 100%
I grow most of our food, and we don't eat meat from animals coming from big farms.

Of course we do own all the modern electrical domestic equipment known to man, but when we buy it, we try to get the most efficient ones.

Oh, and despite my usual grouchyness, that's actually a great achievement. If more people lived closer to that, we'd have less issues.
Also a better approach to promoting "modern" life (who would have thought Lysander is a secret progressive?) - trough energy and food independence as well as the "high tech toy" appeal of new solutions.
Problem is still that in a largely wasteful society, the individual contribution pales.