Every single example of casualty numbers given so far in this thread has been broken down by religion except the one I gave where I made no distinction between protestant and catholic, why is that if it's such an irrelevant issue ?.
General / Off-Topic UK Calls General Election for 8th June 2017
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Every single example of casualty numbers given so far in this thread has been broken down by religion except the one I gave where I made no distinction between protestant and catholic, why is that if it's such an irrelevant issue ?.
verminstar
Banned
Leaving aside the causes, republicans in ulster are a minority. In just about every democracy in the world, a minority cannot dictate to a majority what their future will be. Thats what the IRA effectively tried to do in our eyes...shoot, bomb and murder their way onto the negotiating table, only they had no intention of negotiating anything at the start...it was only after 30 years and the dawning realization they simply couldnt win that they changed tactics and went into politics.
Thats also an historical fact. Numbers mean nothing in this case...all numbers are are an excuse to hate and hold grudges. Why should a minority hold sway over a majority who wants to stay british? Should we all suddenly feel guilty over events that took place before we were even born? Sorry to inform ye, but just about none of us feel guilty about anything which makes yer case very thin indeed.
Ye want to have us trust you lot? Give us the dissidents and the locations of the forgotten...your own people tortured and executed and then buried in unmarked graves. Me...a self confessed loyalist disgusted by the actions of self confessed republicans who torture and kill their own insisting on giving the forgotten a decent christian burial...call it a gesture of goodwill. We can give you guys names and details which would solve scores of historical cases, but we already have, and got nothing back from republicans...not a sausage just more demands.
So until we start seeing republicans give up some secrets from their past, you guys wont get one more concession out of us...nothing and yer historical cases under investigation go cold fer another decade or two. So far its been all one way traffic and loyalists are sick and tired of it...the election results a couple weeks ago demonstrate that frustration perfectly ^
You'll find our next Labour PM more agreeable then, JC (NOT Jesus Christ) is actually a republican and probably an athiest lol.
I'm a proud Brit, but i wish we were made up of a united republics rather than a pathetic united monarchy. Our past in Ireland was wrong, but it is what it is right now, united Ireland should only happen when the majority of NI wants it, perhaps inevitable, but until then there needs to be peace and respect amongst both communities.
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You do know that there are orange marches in the Republic every year, no one here gives a fiddlers,
https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0709/801356-orange-march-donegal/ .
All the protestant schools here are state funded to a very high degree, the Irish government has funded a museum and information centre on the Battle of the Boyne site.
https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/s...it-to-the-battle-of-the-boyne-visitor-centre/
http://www.battleoftheboyne.ie/
You could try and make it an inclusive fun day out for everyone instead a triumphalist effort to beat your neighbours with.
Contrast the Irish state with the carry on of the DUP in relation to their sectarian treatment of Irish language and the cutting of 50K to the poorest communities in the North to fund trips to the Gaeltacht to learn Irish, who`s more tolerant.
verminstar
Banned
Cool...heres an argument for ye. The catholic population all but begged britain to help them against the unionists who were indeed treating them as second class citizens. That is indeed historical fact and not something I will even try and argue against...Im fully aware how much unionism made them suffer.
However, the plot thickens. This is because the republicans realized the brits werent actually on their side due to them being a minority, so they turned on their original saviours in frustration at their own short sightedness in making the situation worse. The first shots that were fired were at british soldiers who unsurprisingly fired back and the rest is history as they say. Historical fact some would argue, while you will obviously have a different version of events where the imperialist forces were relentless in their cruelty towards the whiter than white innocent as lambs republicans.
Im not saying our side were nice...terrible things happened and the brits really were guilty of many things that went against the geneva convention, but that still doesnt excuse what the IRA did to their own people. The sectarianism was just as much the fault of republicans as it was brits and unionists, and this too is accepted historical fact told by those of us who lived through it. Within loyalist communities, the very widely held belief is that this was started by republicans, not the other way around and history confirms this. There are different versions of history that will refute that, but yer forgetting I was there and witnessed many things with my own eyes and republicans hands are literally soaked in blood as far as Im concerned.
Your argument seems to be that Britain is responsible for the war, which suggests less that "people in Britain" find the atrocities their government and army committed difficult to admit and more that you struggle to appreciate the vicious rhetoric which caused the violence to erupt in the first place. There is a reason it is referred to as "The Troubles". It's so that blame is not attached to any person, entity or party. What many, neutral observers, believe is responsible is the sluggish pace of the civil rights movement. There were many actors and reasons for this and to try to attribute blame to any one person or party is a bit ridiculous.
What??, have you read anything I`ve posted. Britain partitioned Ireland at independence against the democratic wish of the vast majority and created the sectarian statlet in the North that directly led to the present Troubles. You now post the above, where is your historical analysis for you argument and please try not to quote the Sun as part of your argument.
Segregated schooling breeds division and adds to the problem, there are better things to teach young children than sectarianism.
........and Britain wasn`t responsible for the setting up of a sectarian headcount and its governance for decades, which saw an apartheid regime run riot. Come on what kind of a feeble excuse is that.
verminstar
Banned
We always included irish nationals in our memorial services that remember the fallen of two world wars...the IRA attended one once by planting a bomb at the cenotaph in enniskillen. That was particularly low...so much fer respecting our culture there hmm?
When I was a kid, everyone in the community, both catholic and protestant used to celebrate the 12th. There was no trouble, no fighting, no counter parades just a carnival type atmosphere fer everyone. Drumcree changed all that and made orangeism a hardline and intolerant institution...remind me again who was responsible fer that? Republicans...because everyone getting along together was never what they wanted.
Yet here you are claiming thats exactly what they want...history contradicts you Im afraid. Like I said, yer gonna have to do a helluva lot better than that if yer trying to win us over to the idea of accepting a united ireland. Outsiders and yanks might believe ye, but I dont because I live with this every single day and know a very different reality than the one you suggest exists ^
I automatically disbelieve your posts, you've made your xenophobic views plain and I don't respect or trust them.
Are you on about Ireland or Britain being sectarian, which or both?
verminstar
Banned
On this I very strongly agree. I went to a protestant only school where half the teachers were active DUP politicians in their spare time...teaching hatred was literally state sponsored and encouraged and I know this because I lived through it. Catholic friends who went to catholic only schools tell very similar stories where they were taught hate and intolerance from a very young age.
Segregated schools made a bad situation much much worse...only an utter fool would suggest they work ^
So you take part in a discussion where you immediately disregard the other party and what they have to say. Christ, if that`s what passes for discussion and debate in your world, than it shows your very limited capacity. You`re obviously better suited to one sided less challenging conversations.
verminstar
Banned
I would say both in equal measure...this aint a p ing contest to see who is the worse...it happened on both sides and thats fact not rhetoric. Lets not get hung up on who was worse as this creates more division...lets all just agree that both sides were as bad as each other and move on shall we? Proving one side or the other was worse proves nothing and solves even less ^
You mean Britain is responsible for the sectarianism in Ireland that was prevalent from the 16th Century on-wards?
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In England you can have a school of each type (they're both fairly rare in these modern enlightened times) right next door to each other and nobody starts throwing bricks, honestly I'm not kidding it's normal for that to happen here.
I disagree with you and give an alternate point of view when you start with the hate-mongering, I do this in case people who don't understand how corrosive and one sided it is believe you.
Again the use of insults due to the weakness of argument. You admit you do not read my posts and have failed to post any evidence to dispute my argument or further your own. Its just meaningless ramblings that fail to address the point and evidence I`ve produced.
....and no we don`t throw bricks at each other or give a fiddlers about creed or colour in my country, we have a gay man of Indian descent as our Taoiseach. Who gives a monkeys. Your just ranting on about sectarianism as you`re clueless and you have nothing else to offer.
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Javert
Volunteer Moderator
I'm surprised this is even allowed - seems like it should be unconstitutional to do that to me. Are they allowed to do it indefinitely for 5 years? Does it require a vote in parliament to authorise this or can it just be dictated by the government (which also raises the question of how they can make this decision when there is no official government at this moment).
Regarding Northern Ireland, one poster presented statistics about the victims of the troubles based on the perpetrators. Another poster presented statistics about the victims. I guess if they are accepted as true, both views are valid. However, the one about the victims, as I recall (and correct me if I'm wrong) failed to point out the religion of the armed forces members who were murdered, presumably inviting you to assume that these people were legitimate targets.
We are invited to think that lots more Catholics were killed than Protestants, but if you then assume that the armed forces were majority protestants (which is probably true although I'm sure there might be exceptions), the numbers are much more even.
If you assume that the armed forces were not legitimate targets and victims just like anyone else, you should then include them in these statistics based on their religion and not just calling them "armed forces" or whatever.
Therefore this kind of depends on your point of view on the legitimacy of taking up an armed fight against the UK government due to past injustices and prior historical decisions about borders.
Also, you are not agreeing because of the premise of the discussion, where some people think that terrible things done by people who are mostly now dead, or at least not in charge any more, should be rectified, even if the current population doesn't support that by majority, whereas others may say that we just have to take things as they are.
That said, it sounds like most of the posters agree that killing people is not a good idea, and that a united Irelend should only happen as and when the majority of NI citizens agree to it. As such, I'm not really seeing as much disagreement to justify all the comments that are becoming to be about the poster and not the topic.
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