Hardware & Technical Need advice - nvidia 3D stereo (aka 3D Vision)

[VR andysonofbob]

Yup, a couple of posts have already pointed your mod out... awesome! I've even taken a look at the sample screenshots of the fix, and the depth perception looks ok to me. Yes, I used the cross-eye method to look at the side-by-side pics and I can see depth in the pics.

Sweet!

It's really not my mod anymore. The 3D Vision community is small but passionate. Lots of people there fixing games because they love it.

If you do choose to get 3D, the Witcher 3 will defo blow you away.

Pro tips: Set depth to 100% Straight away. Then adjust convergence. Convergence is just as important as 3D depth. Don't believe me? Minimise convergence as far as it goes and the scene will become 2D but at depth like those awful 360 VR 'experiences'.

I feel another rant brewing about NVidia being awesome at hardware and 3D software but being objectively clueless about 3D. Proof? They set the default 3D to 15% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And lock... LOCK the convergence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Soz for the exclamation marks but it was quicker to hold down the button down and grit my teeth than do a full on rant.

If ED is all you want to play, you might want to pop your head in the thread and ask Nephilim (he is really the author now, not me) if the fix is still good.

If you get the Witcher 3 PM me and I will send you my config file, tweaked to perfection.

All the best!

 

[FoxTwo]

Pro tips: Set depth to 100% Straight away. Then adjust convergence. Convergence is just as important as 3D depth. Don't believe me? Minimise convergence as far as it goes and the scene will become 2D but at depth like those awful 360 VR 'experiences'.

I feel another rant brewing about NVidia being awesome at hardware and 3D software but being objectively clueless about 3D. Proof? They set the default 3D to 15% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And lock... LOCK the convergence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL yeah I know about Depth and Convergence. Had to mess with it back in 2001 or so when I played Operation Flashpoint with 3D stereo (now known as "ARMA"). Nothing looked right till I got the depth all the way in, and then slowly started on convergence... then everything started popping in and out, and I was amazed.... jaw-drop moment if you will.. suddenly I could tell how far away the trees were, and how long I'd need to run to the next bush or boulder to hide!

I'm not really a new guy at Stereoscopic 3D, I'm just out of touch with the hardware I stopped playing games in 3D when CRT monitors died out... had no further use for my 3D dongle since it wouldn't work on LCD monitors. Only now when I'm seeing the technology for LCD mature, and having at least a variety of brands of monitors that offers 144 hz refresh rates, did I consider going back to 3D gaming...

 

[Kingston@#]

I have 3d tv 3d gpus and I have used it once.
don't wate your money!
there are I believe 3 ways to use 3d if you don't have a 3d mon/tv then you will have to use nv3dtv software which you have to pay for.

 

[Kaltern]

I agree that Nvidia's attempt to monetise EVERYTHING 3D related was ridiculous, and quite possibly caused the death of mainstream 3D gaming.
I HATE when people dismiss 3DTV because they don't 'see the point'. Many do the same for VR as well - it riles me no end.
3D gaming on PC CAN be superb. If it's done well.
I've never tried it so maybe someone could enlighten me - does 3D work well with tracking, like TrackIR?

 

[FoxTwo]

I have 3d tv 3d gpus and I have used it once.
don't wate your money!
there are I believe 3 ways to use 3d if you don't have a 3d mon/tv then you will have to use nv3dtv software which you have to pay for.

Well I'm not playing games on a 3D TV... I'm playing games on a 144 hz gaming monitor. No need to buy any additional software. Nvidia's got it built-in into their drivers now. Back in 2000s I think I remembered having to download a separate 3D software, but still again from nvidia and never had to pay for it.

3D gaming on PC CAN be superb. If it's done well.
I've never tried it so maybe someone could enlighten me - does 3D work well with tracking, like TrackIR?

Yes. I did it back in late 90s and early 2000's. TrackIR (back then) only needed 1 reflective dot which you can stick anywhere... and I stuck that onto the 3D glasses. I remember playing Jane's F18 and other flight sims with 3D and head tracking. It was "VR" in its infancy.

I plan on doing the same again, when my 3D Vision kit arrives from Amazon My trusty TrackIR is still alive so that part's taken care of. And if my TrackIR were to die before my 3D Vision Kit arrives... well I've still got my Tobii 4C... not as good as TrackIR but still a head tracker... kind of...

 

[NW3]

3D gaming on PC CAN be superb. If it's done well.
I've never tried it so maybe someone could enlighten me - does 3D work well with tracking, like TrackIR?

Agreed. Yes, I've used Anaglyph (red/blue glasses) 3D with my EDTracker and the effect was much better than 3D alone, especially when driving the SRV. The surrounding terrain looks really good.

I concur about needing to set the depth and convergence in ED's graphics options. I spent quite a while tweaking it; the results were worth it.

 

[GG7]

I run the game through physical 7.1 Surround system in my Home Theater. You can rig a smaller version of this in a computer room using wireless speakers and a sub.

Nothing else can hold a candle to that. (Unless you have one of those new systems that can phase shift the audio to sync with headlook/head tracker position. THEN you are on to something comparable)

 

[FoxTwo]

Hmm I found an old pair of Anaglyph glasses (from a cereal box ) and tried to run ED in red/blue 3D.

Now, I have not messed with convergence, depth, fustrum etc etc, but I must say, looks ok to me. Dashboard looks flat, like a layer brought slightly in front of the rest of the dash, all the "holograph" like your target, scanner, fuel gauge all look.... flat. I would have thought they should have some depth to it since they looked "slanted" in normal 2D, implying one part is further away from you than the other. But, it just seems like the gauges are all painted on a flat piece of cardboard, which is brought slightly forwards towards the player.

Do VR players see the gauges the same way?

HUD aiming reticule is slightly further out from the player, looks ok to me. Approaching planets in supercruise did not convey the feeling of "depth"... so maybe I need to mess with the 3D settings more. Basically all I wanted to do was to see how "bad" (as many posts here impled) or "good" it is. And honestly, it's not that bad. Some tweaks in the nvidia 3D panel should take care of most of it, plus the application of the Helix Mod as suggested, should improve things a lot.

 

[NW3]

Hmm I found an old pair of Anaglyph glasses (from a cereal box ) and tried to run ED in red/blue 3D.

Now, I have not messed with convergence, depth, fustrum etc etc, but I must say, looks ok to me. Dashboard looks flat, like a layer brought slightly in front of the rest of the dash, all the "holograph" like your target, scanner, fuel gauge all look.... flat. I would have thought they should have some depth to it since they looked "slanted" in normal 2D, implying one part is further away from you than the other. But, it just seems like the gauges are all painted on a flat piece of cardboard, which is brought slightly forwards towards the player.

My first experiments were with freebee cardboard glasses. The results were better than expected, so I investigated further.

Using the in-game anaglyph mode, there is a fair bit of "bleed" between left and right images. I bought some "real" anaglyph glasses and the bleed was reduced and the image clarity was better. Unfortunately, the colors are messed up and both red and green appear to be yellow.

When using NVidia 3D anaglyph mode, the colors were fine, there was less bleed, and I was able to adjust the settings to yield decent 3D depth, but there were some depth glitches (which might be fixable by the Helix Mod, but I haven't tried that).

I too, found the default settings to be flat. I set the in-game separation to 80% and the focal distance to 30%. That gives the dashboard real depth, but the holograms were still flat, like an old-game "sprite". I think it's because of the way the game renders them as "cartoon" outlines.

The best feeling of depth is when driving the SRV. The surrounding terrain appears to be much more real, compared to flying my ship where all the stars appear be about the same distance away, just a few feet past the reticle.

 

[FoxTwo]

Using the in-game anaglyph mode, there is a fair bit of "bleed" between left and right images. I bought some "real" anaglyph glasses and the bleed was reduced and the image clarity was better. Unfortunately, the colors are messed up and both red and green appear to be yellow.

Interesting. What happened to me was that the whole screen went into "compatibility mode" automatically the moment the game started up. Everything went into a sort of "orangey hue". Yes I took off the "glasses" to see the actual colors.

When using NVidia 3D anaglyph mode, the colors were fine and I was able to adjust the settings to yield decent 3D depth, but there were some depth glitches (which might be fixable by the Helix Mod, but I haven't tried that).

I too, found the default settings to be flat. I set the in-game separation to 80% and the focal distance to 30%.

The best feeling of depth is when driving the SRV. The surrounding terrain appears to be much more real, compared to flying my ship where all the stars appear be about the same distance away, just a few feet past the reticle.

Cool, will try that to see if there's more depth to it. At least it'll give me a starting point to go on when my 3D Vision kit arrives from Amazon.

Personally I don't like anaglyph 3D, cuz it messes up colours in the real world when you take the glasses off. Each eye takes time to adjust back to "true" colours in the real world.

ps: it was hard playing without TrackIR on the cheap cardboard anaglyph glasses I automatically tried to turn my head to look at planets, stations, asteroids etc but the screen didn't move... took me a second or 2 to hit the keys to manually look around with the mouse LOL

 

[FoxTwo]

Ok just tried with 30% focal point, 80% separation.

Yup, has more depth, but still the dashboard is just FLAT. When I target a "long" station like the Orbis, if I turn it such that one end "creeps" into the upper part, ie into the HUD reticule area, that part is suddenly clipped and pushed to the depth of the reticule, and the rest of that holo is at the depth of the dashboard.

Also, planets and asteroids seem to be at the depth of the "skybox", until you get nearer, then they start to have some depth and you can see the planet starting to become a sphere.

And true, the best effect is driving around in the SRV... the terrain looks correct, mounds and ditches. Everything looks... real.

Oh yes the spinning ship looks ok though... looks like a model, not a picture painted on a cardboard box brought forwards towards the player like the gauges in the ship

Seriously, do you VR folks see the gauges as FLAT or like a real "model"??

 

[SMcA]

Ok just tried with 30% focal point, 80% separation.

Yup, has more depth, but still the dashboard is just FLAT. When I target a "long" station like the Orbis, if I turn it such that one end "creeps" into the upper part, ie into the HUD reticule area, that part is suddenly clipped and pushed to the depth of the reticule, and the rest of that holo is at the depth of the dashboard.

Also, planets and asteroids seem to be at the depth of the "skybox", until you get nearer, then they start to have some depth and you can see the planet starting to become a sphere.

And true, the best effect is driving around in the SRV... the terrain looks correct, mounds and ditches. Everything looks... real.

Oh yes the spinning ship looks ok though... looks like a model, not a picture painted on a cardboard box brought forwards towards the player like the gauges in the ship

Seriously, do you VR folks see the gauges as FLAT or like a real "model"??

Using the shutter glasses I see the cockpit as flat with the Hud back projected. So the Hud is in distinct layers, part of it distorted by the glass bevel. And in stations some lights are floating.
Better than the SRV is planets using the external camera. That looks convincing.

 

[FoxTwo]

Using the shutter glasses I see the cockpit as flat with the Hud back projected. So the Hud is in distinct layers, part of it distorted by the glass bevel. And in stations some lights are floating.
Better than the SRV is planets using the external camera. That looks convincing.

Yeah I asked this question over at the VR forums.. one of them was so kind as to make a video showing me that all the gauges and menus are true 3D objects including the cockpit... so when they leaned, the gauges and menus have the correct perspective (in as much as a 2D video can show).

Personally I hated red/blue glasses so my tests have all been rather short and quick, just to get a feel for when my shutter glass kit arrives. Maybe ED won't be a good game to use them on, but I've also tried Batman and Witcher 3 and they look good... nothing out of place (so far). Nothing looked flat in them too.

 

[SMcA]

Yeah I asked this question over at the VR forums.. one of them was so kind as to make a video showing me that all the gauges and menus are true 3D objects including the cockpit... so when they leaned, the gauges and menus have the correct perspective (in as much as a 2D video can show).

I've spoken to a couple of people who use VR. They never mentioned anything being flat. Quite the opposite.

Personally I hated red/blue glasses so my tests have all been rather short and quick, just to get a feel for when my shutter glass kit arrives. Maybe ED won't be a good game to use them on, but I've also tried Batman and Witcher 3 and they look good... nothing out of place (so far). Nothing looked flat in them too.

I am not keen on them either. I have a pair because my other hobby is 3D graphics (Blender, PovRay) and someone on the newsgroup posts Anaglyph images. Mostly grayscale as Anaglyphs cannot support the full colour range. Testing them in Elite I cannot differentiate between the red and green guidance lights in the stations.
For Elite to work properly with the shutter glasses. I think FD would need to output left and right frames along with a sync signal that could be connected to the shutter glasses emitter. Because it doesn't 3D Vision treats Elite as a 2D game and does a conversion. I assume.
On the positive side I like the monitor and I could watch 3D movies, if I watched movies atall, atall. And I can make my own stereoscopic images.

Post back when you get your kit with your review.

 

[FoxTwo]

I did a couple more tests... and have some VERY INTERESTING findings....

First, I disabled 3D stereo on nvidia control panel, hence I'm back to bog standard 2D monitor display.

Then I started ED and ENABLED the Anaglyph 3D inside ED menu.

Now, this is the interesting part - once inside the cockpit, NOTHING LOOKED FLAT. Scanner has dots floating above and below it (essentially the tails on the dots become redundant in 3D mode). Your own ship holo has a shield ring slanted at 45 degrees and your ship model looks exactly like it's going THROUGH it. Left and right menus float at where I expected them to float. Once I launched out of station, the station looked.... "correct".... planets looked like spheres, not background pictures as part of the space "skybox".

In other words, looked like what the kind gentlemen over at VR forums showed me how it looked like in VR.

Then I went back into the options, and tried Side By Side (using cross-eye method to have a look).

Same findings as native ED anaglyph 3D - nothing is flat.

For Elite to work properly with the shutter glasses. I think FD would need to output left and right frames along with a sync signal that could be connected to the shutter glasses emitter. Because it doesn't 3D Vision treats Elite as a 2D game and does a conversion. I assume.

My findings seem to indicate you are correct on this part. FD has to natively support shutter glasses for ED to look "correct". The native anaglyph mode already has proven this is so.

So... the fault lies in nvidia's "conversion", for lack of a better word.

 

[SMcA]

I did a couple more tests... and have some VERY INTERESTING findings....

First, I disabled 3D stereo on nvidia control panel, hence I'm back to bog standard 2D monitor display.

Then I started ED and ENABLED the Anaglyph 3D inside ED menu.

Now, this is the interesting part - once inside the cockpit, NOTHING LOOKED FLAT. Scanner has dots floating above and below it (essentially the tails on the dots become redundant in 3D mode). Your own ship holo has a shield ring slanted at 45 degrees and your ship model looks exactly like it's going THROUGH it. Left and right menus float at where I expected them to float. Once I launched out of station, the station looked.... "correct".... planets looked like spheres, not background pictures as part of the space "skybox".

In other words, looked like what the kind gentlemen over at VR forums showed me how it looked like in VR.

Then I went back into the options, and tried Side By Side (using cross-eye method to have a look).

Same findings as native ED anaglyph 3D - nothing is flat.



My findings seem to indicate you are correct on this part. FD has to natively support shutter glasses for ED to look "correct". The native anaglyph mode already has proven this is so.

So... the fault lies in nvidia's "conversion", for lack of a better word.

That is the conclusion I came to as well. The irritating thing is that Nvidia say that the conversion is "Excellent" when in fact it is only competent, if that. It looks like early stereo games. With layers at different depths.

 

[FoxTwo]

Ok here's an update.

My 3D kit arrived. Easily installed. Can't figure out where that cable with that PS2-like connector is supposed to go to, didn't install it (yeah I know it's not a PS2... looks like a Vesa cable maybe? S-video?). Everything else works.

Installed Helix Mod, and fired up ED. 3D mode in options disabled. Everything looked wonky - layers of flat sprites everywhere. The only thing 3D-ish is the HUD. I hit CTRL-ALT-F11 to disable compatibility mode. That is where, I guess, the Helix Mod took over, and suddenly ED sprang into 3D instead of layers of flat sprites, like that row of flat gauges. Used the Helix Mod keys to tweak at first, and still needed to use Nvidia's hotkeys for further fine-tuning. Eventually got something which I'm comfortable with.

So, currently, Depth is at approximately 45 to 50% (used to be called Stereo Separation). I would have liked Convergence at the point where the gauges popped out of the monitor towards me though, but at that setting I can't read the left/right panels - words on them are "ghosted" (left and right eye not aligned). Plus, the comms panel on top left and the info panel at top right don't look "right"... So, I pushed the gauges back inside the monitor a bit, and finally the left/right panels can be read.

Flew a few missions to "test things out", and I guess the current settings is as good as I'm gonna get. Still kinda disappointed that "space" still looks like a skybox, just 1 metre or so inside my monitor. doesn't look "endless", but I guess that's the limitation of current technology. Games back in the day also looked like this too - things far away looked like pics on a wallpaper painted on a wall 1 metre inside my monitor. But the good thing is that now space stations, outposts and planetary bases look real enough that I basically don't need to look at gauges to land.... could just "feel" my way in because now they're 3D like how things look like in real world

Oh don't get me wrong, if this was the FIRST time I ever seen true 3D, my jaw would have hit the floor. I'd be oooh-ing and ahhh-ing at everything. But it's not my first time - I've done this way back when CRT monitors were the only equipment capable of delivering true 3D (late 90s, early 2000s). So yeah the 3D is actually excellent with the Helix Mod.

Oh yes, apparently my monitor has a hidden feature which is not specified in the product web page nor in the spec sheet PDF - it has Nvidia Lightboost tech! The screen brightened when 3D mode is on, and when I exit the game(s), the monitor went back to 2D mode brightness. Interestingly the OSD info also lists the mode as '3D mode' as well as giving the option "nvidia Lightboost(tm)" in the option menus.

That is the conclusion I came to as well. The irritating thing is that Nvidia say that the conversion is "Excellent" when in fact it is only competent, if that. It looks like early stereo games. With layers at different depths.

The "Excellent" apparently is referring to its "compatibility mode", which is an outright lie if I may say so...in compatibility mode, as stated earlier, everything is just layers of sprites. Oh sure there's "depth", but it's just 1 layer appearing in front of another layer of sprites, not 3D objects.

 

[SMcA]

Ok here's an update.

My 3D kit arrived. Easily installed. Can't figure out where that cable with that PS2-like connector is supposed to go to, didn't install it (yeah I know it's not a PS2... looks like a Vesa cable maybe? S-video?).

From what I can gather it is to sync the audio to your monitor

Everything else works.

Spoiler

Installed Helix Mod, and fired up ED. 3D mode in options disabled. Everything looked wonky - layers of flat sprites everywhere. The only thing 3D-ish is the HUD. I hit CTRL-ALT-F11 to disable compatibility mode. That is where, I guess, the Helix Mod took over, and suddenly ED sprang into 3D instead of layers of flat sprites, like that row of flat gauges. Used the Helix Mod keys to tweak at first, and still needed to use Nvidia's hotkeys for further fine-tuning. Eventually got something which I'm comfortable with.

So, currently, Depth is at approximately 45 to 50% (used to be called Stereo Separation). I would have liked Convergence at the point where the gauges popped out of the monitor towards me though, but at that setting I can't read the left/right panels - words on them are "ghosted" (left and right eye not aligned). Plus, the comms panel on top left and the info panel at top right don't look "right"... So, I pushed the gauges back inside the monitor a bit, and finally the left/right panels can be read.

Flew a few missions to "test things out", and I guess the current settings is as good as I'm gonna get. Still kinda disappointed that "space" still looks like a skybox, just 1 metre or so inside my monitor. doesn't look "endless", but I guess that's the limitation of current technology. Games back in the day also looked like this too - things far away looked like pics on a wallpaper painted on a wall 1 metre inside my monitor. But the good thing is that now space stations, outposts and planetary bases look real enough that I basically don't need to look at gauges to land.... could just "feel" my way in because now they're 3D like how things look like in real world

Oh don't get me wrong, if this was the FIRST time I ever seen true 3D, my jaw would have hit the floor. I'd be oooh-ing and ahhh-ing at everything. But it's not my first time - I've done this way back when CRT monitors were the only equipment capable of delivering true 3D (late 90s, early 2000s). So yeah the 3D is actually excellent with the Helix Mod.

Oh yes, apparently my monitor has a hidden feature which is not specified in the product web page nor in the spec sheet PDF - it has Nvidia Lightboost tech! The screen brightened when 3D mode is on, and when I exit the game(s), the monitor went back to 2D mode brightness. Interestingly the OSD info also lists the mode as '3D mode' as well as giving the option "nvidia Lightboost(tm)" in the option menus.

But no contrast.

The "Excellent" apparently is referring to its "compatibility mode", which is an outright lie if I may say so...in compatibility mode, as stated earlier, everything is just layers of sprites. Oh sure there's "depth", but it's just 1 layer appearing in front of another layer of sprites, not 3D objects.

And you need to enable switching off the compatibility mode in the advance settings.

I installed the Helix mod and was impressed by it compared to the compatibility mode, much smoother. I just happened to be in a High Res when I logged on. The skybox was in front of the faraway ring particles. [where is it]

Thanks for reporting back.

Edit: I forgot to mention I installed 3DFixManager and lost my Nvidia control panel. I had to download the drivers and reinstall them. Grrr!

 

[FoxTwo]

From what I can gather it is to sync the audio to your monitor

Then it's a useless cable My monitor has no audio capabilities, and my TV can't go 120Hz

But no contrast.

Actually for my monitor, it's "no brightness" LOL. That button/option is greyed out in the OSD menu. I have control over contrast. But I don't mess with it when I'm in 3D mode, looks fine with the glasses. It only looks too bright when I take the glasses off. When I exit the game (any game in 3D mode) the monitor goes back to "normal" settings, ie the settings before LightBoost kicked in.

And you need to enable switching off the compatibility mode in the advance settings.

By default it's CTRL-ALT-F11 on mine. No need to mess with advanced settings. Once I've switched it off the first time I ran ED, subsequent times I start ED up it doesn't go into compatibility mode anymore.

I installed the Helix mod and was impressed by it compared to the compatibility mode, much smoother. I just happened to be in a High Res when I logged on. The skybox was in front of the faraway ring particles. [where is it]

Hmm I did fly past a few ringed planets, they looked ok to me. Well I just haven't actually dropped INSIDE the rings yet... maybe I'll try it later and see if it's still like how you described

 

[SMcA]

Then it's a useless cable My monitor has no audio capabilities, and my TV can't go 120Hz

Mine neither.

Actually for my monitor, it's "no brightness" LOL. That button/option is greyed out in the OSD menu. I have control over contrast. But I don't mess with it when I'm in 3D mode, looks fine with the glasses. It only looks too bright when I take the glasses off. When I exit the game (any game in 3D mode) the monitor goes back to "normal" settings, ie the settings before LightBoost kicked in.

I think it might depend on which picture mode you are in. I leave mine on sRGB. Although after the first week I've not messed around with it.

By default it's CTRL-ALT-F11 on mine. No need to mess with advanced settings. Once I've switched it off the first time I ran ED, subsequent times I start ED up it doesn't go into compatibility mode anymore.

I reset my settings to default and the Advance mode was unchecked and that's where the shortcut for the setting lives. I must say your controls sound more logical..

Hmm I did fly past a few ringed planets, they looked ok to me. Well I just haven't actually dropped INSIDE the rings yet... maybe I'll try it later and see if it's still like how you described

And later I will check out the mod in a station and on a planet.