Should FDev have the guts to upset players in order to improve the overall quality of the game

[SMcA]

I think so.

The game, for me, is permanently stuck in easy mode. Nothing I do changes that.

I'd love it if they made system security rating and government really matter. Currently the difference is so tiny it's not noticeable.


This would upset a lot of people. But not me.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

For me too. But think of the new people starting the game.
For the more experienced of us. We can make it harder by ourselves.
For combat downgrade your weapons. For Passenger missions take three in different directions etc.

 

[Moonax IRL]

The ranks mean nothing and are only honorary titles as such. They only serve as a route for the ships such as the cutter etc. which is fine. The simple way to fix it going forward is to have proper military careers with the associated ranks, earned via combat, recon, intelligence and related missions with zero connection to ship locks, but with a possible connection to access to military tech. This where FD have to get creative and flesh out military careers going forward.

 

[SkipRat]

I think so.

The game, for me, is permanently stuck in easy mode. Nothing I do changes that.

I'd love it if they made system security rating and government really matter. Currently the difference is so tiny it's not noticeable.


This would upset a lot of people. But not me.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

I know, people were told most of the stuff in the game so far is placeholder until the proper mechanics come along to replace, at which point, FDev should have the guts to implement what they need to implement to really improve the game and addition features, depth etc.

I only ranked in Fed and Imperial, because the Alliance had not even been introduced in to the game yet, there is no rank for the at all and I wouldn't care personally if I lost all my rank and ships I earned if the game was ultimately improved for the long term.

This game is going to take a long time develop, but it would be so sad if the game was ultimately rubbish and broken at the end of it, because people got too selfish and possessive with game mechanics that were used as place holders.

 

[Flavourless]

...This thread is due to a question being being raised at Lavecon regarding consequences in the game that David Braben himself in front of a live audience, that he wanted in the game, and the ranking of both within the Federation and Imperium was used as an example of the these consequences, which resulted FDev saying that they have to think about players who have ranked in both, Despite after 30 years of lore development this would never have happened in the first place. (Despite it appearing in previous Elite games, most likely due to certain limitations at the time)...

The premise is flawed.

There is nothing in Elite lore that says Empire and Federation are enemies.
On the contrary, the galaxy has been at peace in that respect for a millennia.

There is absolutely no reason that players cannot have high standing with all major factions if they wish.

The game is not about Empire v Federation, or Human v Thargoid, inter-clan rivalry, or any of the other petty squabbles that some players like to fabricate in an attempt to justify their own desired playing style.
The game is fundamentally about a single CMDR, Pilots Federation member, struggling to both survive and make a living however he sees fit, in a galaxy that is hard, uncompromising and dangerous - without being a uniform combat-orientated warzone.

People love to distort the lore, because all they ever want to do is pew-pew.

 

[SkipRat]

For me too. But think of the new people starting the game.
For the more experienced of us. We can make it harder by ourselves.
For combat downgrade your weapons. For Passenger missions take three in different directions etc.

Why bother having ranks if you are going to make the game easy for everyone? Players should be able to take missions, trade, explore, pirate or whatever at the level they are good at. That is the whole point of a ranking system, with ranked missions etc... It gives you reason to improve and get better not go out and downgrade your weapons to make it harder for yourself.

And this is the exact kind of thing I am alluding too. FDev should be concentrating on giving the game people deserve to have, the elite universe we have... If you are not good enough get better and find "your level", not cry at FDev all the time and ultimately preventing the game from being developed the way it needs to be developed.

 

[Katnisseve]

The BEST way to handle ranks moving forward for FDev is to change thr current ranks over to Security Clearance level 1-14.
All the ships we have in possession now would remain and would them be security locked by the appropriate comparable level... So imperial Security level 12 opens the cutter....Fed Security level 12 opens thr corvette.

Then, Fdev implements military career paths with actual rank. You cam only choose one side, and through doing actual service for yhe Superpower, gaining rank, you then get awarded command of frigate class and higher ships. This also adds in different types of career paths within the same superpower. Larger ships now require multicrew to function and leave port. Those in solo would have the option pf paying for Imperial crew members(or Fed)... In order to leave port. These ships would then be given specific tasks to complete by the Superpower. Almost like a raid mechanic. Get your crew together and head to some trouble spot, etc.
Doesn't all have to be combat either. One type of navy vessel could be exploration related or colonization oriented.

 

[SkipRat]

The premise is flawed.

There is nothing in Elite lore that says Empire and Federation are enemies.
On the contrary, the galaxy has been at peace in that respect for a millennia.

There is absolutely no reason that players cannot have high standing with all major factions if they wish.

The game is not about Empire v Federation, or Human v Thargoid, inter-clan rivalry, or any of the other petty squabbles that some players like to fabricate in an attempt to justify their own desired playing style.
The game is fundamentally about a single CMDR, Pilots Federation member, struggling to both survive and make a living however he sees fit, in a galaxy that is hard, uncompromising and dangerous - without being a uniform combat-orientated warzone.

People love to distort the lore, because all they ever want to do is pew-pew.

1) This thread is not specifically about any game mechanic, but rather if FDev should have the guts to upset the player base in order add new gaming mechanics to improve the depth, gameplay and add additional Lore to the game. The Fed - Imp thing was just one example of where a clash would happen.

2) The UK and USA are not enemies, in fact they have a special relationship, but I very much doubt the Americans would allow a British general to rank with in their army.

3) if the pew pew comment was aimed at me, I am a trader and explorer by nature.

4) There are so many reasons why a player cant rank in all three major factions... Mainly, because it breaks all the laws of common sense and..... This thread is not about this...

5) "The game is fundamentally about a single CMDR, Pilots Federation member, struggling to both survive and make a living however he sees fit, in a galaxy that is hard, uncompromising and dangerous - without being a uniform combat-orientated warzone.", you say? What is hard about not feeling the effects of siding with side or another in a consequence free game? Hard, uncompromising and dangerous are all the result of consequences and you have just tried to justify not having for this specific example... And IMO, is one of the reasons why FDev have so many problems, because they are "scared of the players and implementing consequences to players actions".

6) Yeah, I have been playing elite for a very long time and I also know that just because there is peace, it does not mean there is no animosity between the major factions.

7) Point 1, is the one really worth noting, the result well are to entertain

 

[Katnisseve]

Im typing on a phone so bare with the typos please....
I stated security clearances because civilians can have security clearance in the real world.
As for military ranks, say, an ensign, can participate in a frigate crew as a gunner or whatever on a ship captained by a player whos an Admiral. All positions in between would be whatever rank appropriate. This would all have to be fleshed out obviously.
Also, you wouldn't get invited to attend NAVAL academy until you've reached Security level 12 in the respective superpower.

 

[Surprised Brony]

As far as rank locked ships go, I think its fine we can rank both factions up currently. It's the auxiliary navy, which means there's no real dedication to them. I mean, we never signed up, went through training, and had a ceremony celebrating our initiation. We would need another more in depth system added on top of it that lets us keep what we have while finally introducing a choice. The rewards for the sides need to be balanced, and it could be more akin to power play in how you decide who to support. But switching sides would be something you either can't do, or can only do once with huge drawbacks.

As far as engineers, I'd rather we keep them but standardize the upgrades or introduce sliders. RNG doesn't cause build diversity, special effects do. RNG causes imbalance based on luck.

Anything else, I can't remember my opinions on. Either way, they'll do what they do. We'll see how many cry, how many laugh, and how many love it.

TL;DR:
They should have the guts to do drastic things, but don't kick us where the stars don't shine.

 

[Kaocraft]

They shouldn't make the current ranking system into a mutually exclusive one. You're not really in the Navy, you're a friend of the empire/federation and they're giving you perks with cute titles. Heck you're not even a friend of the empire/Feds; since all of your ranking is done by helping out superpower-aligned minor factions, you're really a friend of a friend. You're never a King or and Admiral, you're a free agent mercenary with "King" level perks, such as the option of buying a stripped down civilian version of the Cutter, or whatever. You have no responsibilities to anyone and no the rankings should not be mutually exclusive because there's no reason that the Empire and Federation would be able to keep track of you to the degree necessary to make those kinds of decisions or restrictions. If you were legitimately in the military, you wouldn't be able to fly all over the place anywhere at any time and buy/fly any ship that you want.

What they *should* do is build out an entire military career path with exclusive missions and ranking paths, which are completely different from just randomly running a mission for some random faction which happens to be under emp/fed jurisdiction. You should be able to actively pledge/join the military if you want to, at which point you would have certain rights, responsibilities, and duties which would change as you worked your way through those ranks. Pledging to one military or another would be mutually exclusive ala PowerPlay, and you'd lose all your ranking if you unpledged. Perhaps like PowerPlay you would also have the option to defect to the other navy and keep some of your rank progress, in exchange for a prolonged period of being actively hunted down.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

For me too. But think of the new people starting the game.
For the more experienced of us. We can make it harder by ourselves.
For combat downgrade your weapons. For Passenger missions take three in different directions etc.

I just want areas I can go to meet a more measured challenge. I don't want the entire galaxy crawling in super relentless modified elite NPCs. That'd be equally as bad as now (which is the opposite).
Basically like any MMO (I know elite isn't an MMO), it has areas for higher level players.
In EDs case, that would be security level. Kinda like Eve Online really. It's one thing that game did well.

I tried taking no weapons on my Python, to make life harder. I couldn't get anyone to shoot me. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[h347h]

Simple really..... You would have thought.

EDIT: Right, been at work, posted a thread, come home, now having to do an edit. The text regarding Imperial and Federal Ranks is an "Example" of where people have put a lot time an effort into the game, to rank in both, but where a vast amount of additional lore, depth and gameplay can be injected into the game, but in order to do this, FDev would have to make some hard choices in order to add the improvements into the game. This was an example, the point of the thread is "should FDev have the guts", despite it being obvious that some people would get up set.

Eve is a clear example of this, the developers have done many changes to the game that have upset a lot of people, but the game is still going strong if not grown, regardless of whether you like it or not.

This is not about any game mechanic in particular, but rather if it is in the best interest of the game to have the guts to say we are going to implement x, y and z, because we feel x, y and z would add so much more to the game.

I personally think it is far more dangerous not to and FDev are going to have a far more bigger how to climb out of further down the line.

This thread is due to a question being being raised at Lavecon regarding consequences in the game that David Braben himself in front of a live audience, that he wanted in the game, and the ranking of both within the Federation and Imperium was used as an example of the these consequences, which resulted FDev saying that they have to think about players who have ranked in both, Despite after 30 years of lore development this would never have happened in the first place. (Despite it appearing in previous Elite games, most likely due to certain limitations at the time).

So, should FDev have the guts to upset players in order to implement new game mechanics, lore and other changes to the game, regardless if it upsets a majority of players? Most of whom, would probably forget all about it within a couple a days and had a think about the long term benefits.

Edit: Can a moderator change the title to included the word "should" in the title, thanks to phone and fat fingers.

Thank you Mods.

Yeah if they managed to make the game open only and got rid of the whole CMDR and hollow icons it would go a long way towards making the game better. Though it would get some underwear up tight in some people.

 

[Jason Lightning]

The premise is flawed.

There is nothing in Elite lore that says Empire and Federation are enemies.
On the contrary, the galaxy has been at peace in that respect for a millennia.

There is absolutely no reason that players cannot have high standing with all major factions if they wish.

The game is not about Empire v Federation, or Human v Thargoid, inter-clan rivalry, or any of the other petty squabbles that some players like to fabricate in an attempt to justify their own desired playing style.
The game is fundamentally about a single CMDR, Pilots Federation member, struggling to both survive and make a living however he sees fit, in a galaxy that is hard, uncompromising and dangerous - without being a uniform combat-orientated warzone.

People love to distort the lore, because all they ever want to do is pew-pew.

Actually the lore has many cases of skirmishes and mini-Wars between the Federation and the Empire, some featured in Tales from the Frontier and two highlighted in Reclamation and from And Here the Wheel. Notably in the latter a devastating war was later revealed to be the result of a false flag by Alliance operatives who wanted a bigger conflict to try and recruit more worlds. Now the skirmishes and Cold War never reached all out galactic conflict, and it's hinted that this is because of Thargoids, but they are not on friendly terms at all, and each Superpower views the others with suspicion at best and as a hostile neighbor at most.

At any given point you'll find the superpowers warring in smaller skirmish disputes, closest example would probably be India and Pakistan during the height of their border skirmishes.

 

[Vasious]

I've long advocated for a rework of superpower leveling and the military career path. Just let people keep their existing rank and ships and rework the system. Seems fair to me.

Certainly would be great to see a more developed Super Power and Military Career path, where there were both benefits, and consequences of Rank.

Mercenary behavior permitted but the more you entrench yourself to one side, for the benefits, the more the consequence of not supporting them the next time.

Those with Dual ranks will just time themselves having to make a decision to pick a side and see their rank and benefits there of on the other side degrade with each choice.

Ideally I would see all ships available to all Cmdrs, be it at a mark up for non aligned Cmdrs, and a discount to aligned Cmdrs, and the Ranks and medals and such offering other rewards, such as Sidegrade modules, the Engineers that require Super Power Naval Ranks, Decals, Liveries, special missions, special material brokers.

Mega ships would make perfect Fleet Hubs

Imagine the Indefatigable Class Dreadnought Megaship which only allowed those with Federal Rank to dock (ala Engineer bases) flanked by 4 Farragut Battle Cruisers as a POI when you could dock, get offered Military Missions, access to the Federal Navy Engineer work shop etc etc.

 

[Goose4291]

The premise is flawed.

There is nothing in Elite lore that says Empire and Federation are enemies.
On the contrary, the galaxy has been at peace in that respect for a millennia.

You mean apart from the cold war thats been going on between the two for over a century, and the small bushfire wars such as were seen in Elite: Reclamation and also lead to the formation of the Alliance?

 

[Valethar]

I find that I could completely live with people being salty over the removal of RNGineers. Wouldn't upset me at all, mind you.

But they'd have to replace it with something that actually resembles crafting, instead of the slot machine they're using now.

 

[4gui4]

They should play the game or just hire 5 people playing all day 5 days a week in FD Devs Offices, and analyses the reports.

They should know how many hours to be king, admiral, elite, all I hear is They say that demand a lot of dedication (you have no idea)

For me the matter is: If you don't play well the product you make, how you know you're doing it right?

[alien]

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

If a replacement system is fun and engaging then I dont mind loosing old grindy progress and redoing things with new gameplay. The key is that the new stuff needs to be fun and engaging, not some shallow grind.

 

[Madrax573]

Simple really..... You would have thought.

So, should FDev have the guts to upset players in order to implement new game mechanics, lore and other changes to the game, regardless if it upsets a majority of players? Most of whom, would probably forget all about it within a couple a days and had a think about the long term benefits.

Yes. But they should also have the guts to own up and change stuff again or revert if it doesn't work as expected. But not in a day or so etc if the whiners pipe up really loud if you get my drift.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

OP - Devs upset some players no matter what they do. I think what you might be saying is whether FD should be willing to upset players who don't want what you want in order that you get what you want. I know you said no particular mechanics, but since you think there is something wrong currently, you must have an opinion on what you want to see changed.

Therefore, ill just whip this old infographic of mine out just to remind people that what you want isn't always what others want: