Karma vs PvP Piracy

[Riverside]

The question of how piracy could fit in with the proposed 'karma' system has come up a few times recently, I'd like to see if we can come up with a solution.

PvP Piracy is obviously illegal according to the in-universe laws (lets call this 'lore') but positively encouraged by the game itself (the 'game') because it can be a lot of fun for both participants if done well.

So for example, I think killing the victim after cargo has been dropped could become a karma flag, but I can see flaws in that rule.

What rules do you think a karma system could use that would differentiate 'proper' pirate behaviour from ganking dressed up as piracy?

 

[Gunnet]

Since karma tracks trends, I don't believe it will need any specific rules to distinguish piracy from ganking. The distinction will happen naturally based on how few players a legitimate pirate kills.

If you occasionally kill a clean player you're treated as an in-game "murderer". If you regularly kill clean players you're treated as a disruptive player.

 

[William H. Bonney]

i have no issues with pirates or gankers, they should both be negative karma. Pirates shouldn't loose so much as they shouldn't kill their prey.

 

[Robert Maynard]

PvP Piracy is obviously illegal according to the in-universe laws (lets call this 'lore') but positively encouraged by the game itself (the 'game') because it can be a lot of fun for both participants if done well.

How is PvP piracy "positively encouraged by the game itself"? The game doesn't care whether the target is player or NPC, there is no additional reward for pirating a player and, while (done well) it *can* be a lot of fun for both parties, other outcomes are also available....

So for example, I think killing the victim after cargo has been dropped could become a karma flag, but I can see flaws in that rule.

Destroying the targeted player after cargo has been dropped is a perfect example of when a negative karma hit should be applied, in my opinion.

 

[babelfisch]

From another thread:

I'd like to see a communication system that allows you to demand / accept cargo, it should work for both, PvE and PvP piracy.

- needs cargo scans to initiate
- you can only demand as much cargo as you can take (including wing members)
- allows better PvE piracy AND allows a better experience for the guy being pirated
- for PvP it would be tied to the karma system, if you demand cargo before destroying a rejecting CMDR you'd get a different effect
- Killing a ship that has actually given you cargo should seriously lower a pirate's reputation / karma

Repeated mindless killing without demanding cargo: Everyone hates you.
Repeated killing after demanding cargo: Only the faction in the jurisdiction you are pirating in hates you.

PS
Succesful piracy attempts would count to your (new) pirate rank, other new ranks are smuggler and assassin.
The new mechanic would also allow to keep better track of piracy actions to count towards the BGS.

PPS
To clarify the BGS part: The current mechanic can't differntiate between piracy and exchanging cargo. The game doesn't know if I gave you the cargo deliberately. A demand cargo mechanic would change this.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

To my mind the problem is a karma system shouldn't be confused with Crime & Punishment. FDev from what I have seen and read have not got a clear idea of how karma and C&P should interact yet either. For me a Karma system should deal with external negative playing aspects and cheats, things like combat logging. Crime & Punishment should deal with in game illegal and illegitimate actions, such as ship destruction,murder, theft etc. Piracy also is not a specific crime but a combination of crimes/activities. It's basically theft & extortion, which may or may not include smuggling, murder, ship destructions and damage. Being a pirate is more of an game role and ethos but should be a viable activity at the end of the day.

 

[Robert Maynard]

To my mind the problem is a karma system shouldn't be confused with Crime & Punishment. FDev from what I have seen and read have not got a clear idea of how karma and C&P should interact yet either. For me a Karma system should deal with external negative playing aspects and cheats, things like combat logging.

From what Sandro has written on the topic, the karma system would seem to be designed to deal with particular player / player interactions that Frontier consider to be detrimental to the health of the game.

Crime & Punishment should deal with in game illegal and illegitimate actions, such as ship destruction,murder, theft etc. Piracy also is not a specific crime but a combination of crimes/activities. It's basically theft & extortion, which may or may not include smuggling, murder, ship destructions and damage. Being a pirate is more of an game role and ethos but should be a viable activity at the end of the day.

Ship destruction (in particular circumstances) is included on Sandro's list of things that would attract negative karma, should such a system be introduced.

.... and the introduction of Pilots' Federation bounties in 2.4 would seem to be the start of that introduction.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The question of how piracy could fit in with the proposed 'karma' system has come up a few times recently, I'd like to see if we can come up with a solution.

PvP Piracy is obviously illegal according to the in-universe laws (lets call this 'lore') but positively encouraged by the game itself (the 'game') because it can be a lot of fun for both participants if done well.

So for example, I think killing the victim after cargo has been dropped could become a karma flag, but I can see flaws in that rule.

What rules do you think a karma system could use that would differentiate 'proper' pirate behaviour from ganking dressed up as piracy?

As I understand what little has been revealed of the karma system, it should have little impact on "proper" piracy. A pirate wants cargo, not the destruction of another's ship. The karma system will track things like murder and combat logging. Don't destroy other people's ships wholesale, and the karma system shouldn't be a problem.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

From what Sandro has written on the topic, the karma system would seem to be designed to deal with particular player / player interactions that Frontier consider to be detrimental to the health of the game.



Ship destruction (in particular circumstances) is included on Sandro's list of things that would attract negative karma, should such a system be introduced.

.... and the introduction of Pilots' Federation bounties in 2.4 would seem to be the start of that introduction.

Is there a published list of karma related activities then?

I do have a little trouble with ship destructions being on the karma list as it must be impossible to establish a motive via a computer algorithm. I understand the karma system won't work exactly like that but used trends in data but for ship destructions that does seem a little problematic.

 

[babelfisch]

Is there a published list of karma related activities then?

I do have a little trouble with ship destructions being on the karma list as it must be impossible to establish a motive via a computer algorithm. I understand the karma system won't work exactly like that but used trends in data but for ship destructions that does seem a little problematic.

Not yet, but reading Sandro's Comments should help.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Is there a published list of karma related activities then?

Sandro was quite active in the Deliberate Ramming thread - this link will take you to a list of his posts there: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/searc...d=349769&contenttype=vBForum_Post&showposts=1

 

[Lateralus]

In terms of PvP piracy, 8/10 traders run and ignore comms, then half of those will log when they can't escape. If it were a good tactic I would attempt to disable their drives, but disabling a fleeing trader is pointless because they will drift at top speed when their drives are out, making collecting cargo very difficult - most also continue to ignore comms while they are drifting helplessly. FDev should give us a way to stop a ship still (tether limpets perhaps that benefit from firing ships mass?), otherwise there is no reason to let a an uncooperative trader live.

I see a lot of people say that pirates shouldn't kill... this is nonsense. Letting traders escape when they don't submit is the worst outcome for the pirate, as the pirate essentially becomes a begger who can be ignored with zero consequence (NPC pirates kill when ignored, so this is clearly a reasonable response).

Pirates would very much prefer that traders submit, we don't want to have to destroy T6's & Asp's all the time - but most of the time they resist and die. Perhaps this is a UI/design issue because panicking players may not read the comms panel, I don't know.

These issues with piracy need to be resolved before pirates get slapped with heavy karma penalties though.

Edit: See my sig for some improvement suggestions.

 

[Powderpanic]

Should also point out that this Karma system and higher rebuys is not going to make ANY difference to the issues you guys have with players killing other players.

The only way it will, is if it so horrifically punishing that it will just removes PVP as an option all together. Which is unlikely.

So you are going to get a solution to a problem, delivered by a team that doesn't understand the issue in the first place, for people who don't even play in Open.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So you are going to get a solution to a problem, delivered by a team that doesn't understand the issue in the first place, for people who don't even play in Open.

Possibly Frontier have been looking at the "why" regarding why people don't play in Open and are hoping to address that to some extent....

 

[NeilF]

The question of how piracy could fit in with the proposed 'karma' system has come up a few times recently, I'd like to see if we can come up with a solution.

PvP Piracy is obviously illegal according to the in-universe laws (lets call this 'lore') but positively encouraged by the game itself (the 'game') because it can be a lot of fun for both participants if done well.

So for example, I think killing the victim after cargo has been dropped could become a karma flag, but I can see flaws in that rule.

What rules do you think a karma system could use that would differentiate 'proper' pirate behaviour from ganking dressed up as piracy?

Not sure what FD have got in mind, but here's some noddy mechanics I posted in another thread. It should allow some "illegal destruction" while penalising habitual ilegal destruction. ie: A pirate can still destroy a target from time to time and get away with it. But do it too often, they will incur penalties...

PF Criminal Reputation Calculation. The highest value is taken from these:-

Daily spike: <no of illegal kills over past 24hrs> / 3
Weekly spike: <no of illegal kills over past 168hrs> / 7
Four weekly spike: <no of illegal kills over past 672hrs> / 10​

How the galaxy reacts to you is then deduced:-

Station/System Access
>=1 : Warnings from stations about your reputation
>1.25 : High security stations deny docking.
>1.5 : Medium security stations deny docking. High security system deny permit.
>1.75 : Low security stations deny dockings. Medium and above systems deny permit.
BTW: It wouldn't be as black and white as this I'd imagine, but you get the picture

Pilots Federation Bounty
>1.5 : You have a bounty of some calculated amount making you a viable/legal target for anyone, anywhere.

Pilots Federation Psycho Alert
>1.75 : You are highlighted on scanners as a known "psycho".

Other/alternative penalities
Lots of alternative penalties have been suggested. eg: From Rebuy increase... to OPEN only mode.​

Now those are just a pee-in-the-wind example of an approach. But the outcome would result in hopefully a predictable and fair outcome to habitual illegal destruction? Ultimately a PF Criminal Reputation you can see on your system panel going up each time you illegally destroy another CMDR (or NPC) and going down over time...​

 

[c00ky1970]

From my understanding of how Karma will work is based on tracking states when a player kills another player.

If a Pirate player interdicts a trader player and extracts cargo from them without a kill then thsi is just the standard bounty for interdicting/ shooting lasers/ hatch breaking etc. Nothing would register on karma.

If a Pirate player interdicts a trader player, who refuses to comply to demands, engages in combat (or refuses to stop) and is then destroyed I belive that thsi would be a tracked instance that would contribute to karma.

Factors when a karma event occurs may include, Combat rating of killer and victim (massive disparity is being looked for), ship value (to compare for eagle ganker vs T9, or Corvette Pirate vs Sidey "trader" again massive disparity)

Now doing one of the above does not necessarily mark you for death, it just ticks up teh karam rating to something where possible sanctions may come into play (high security are hostile, rebuy is larger etc etc).

It is also understood that these sanctions will be gradual, so killing a T-9 with an eagle does not immediately result in 100% rebuy, no access to any Lawful systems and a shadow ban for 6 months. I would assume that anything as draconian as shadow ban would require Frontier adjudication and the other sanctions would apply gradually over time if players karma continued to degrade.

The other part that forum contributors seem to miss is that there must be a way for karma to be buffed. Lawful activities like handing in missions, bounty and combat vouchers may demonstrate that you are on the straight and narrow and should in some way mitigate bad behaviour, but not in such a way that you can kill a player then hand in 1,000,000Cr of bounty and that issue is cleared. It may be that like a criminal conviction any bad karma is always there as "previous" to help spot the players trying to game the system.

I think the challenge Fdev are facing with this is that its tracking actions that may be "honest" or accidental or planned and it has to have a way to set a target that will start punishing players that continue performing antisocial escapades, on the flip side it should also track good behavior and possible provide a positive karma rating that also enhances player rewards for complying with the law (less rebuy, bigger mission rewards, free engineer materials, automatic docking requests provided).

I am looking forward to whatever gets implemented as hopefully it will add an interesting challenge to pirate play as well as add consequneces for both anti-social and social play styles.

 

[Ozram]

Since karma tracks trends, I don't believe it will need any specific rules to distinguish piracy from ganking. The distinction will happen naturally based on how few players a legitimate pirate kills.

If you occasionally kill a clean player you're treated as an in-game "murderer". If you regularly kill clean players you're treated as a disruptive player.

"disruptive player"? Lame. I hope the Karma can be more interesting than that.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

Sandro was quite active in the Deliberate Ramming thread - this link will take you to a list of his posts there: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/searc...d=349769&contenttype=vBForum_Post&showposts=1

Yeah read that one, thought it was clear as mud!

 

[babelfisch]

In terms of PvP piracy, 8/10 traders run and ignore comms, then half of those will log when they can't escape. If it were a good tactic I would attempt to disable their drives, but disabling a fleeing trader is pointless because they will drift at top speed when their drives are out, making collecting cargo very difficult - most also continue to ignore comms while they are drifting helplessly. FDev should give us a way to stop a ship still (tether limpets perhaps that benefit from firing ships mass?), otherwise there is no reason to let a an uncooperative trader live.

I see a lot of people say that pirates shouldn't kill... this is nonsense. Letting traders escape when they don't submit is the worst outcome for the pirate, as the pirate essentially becomes a begger who can be ignored with zero consequence (NPC pirates kill when ignored, so this is clearly a reasonable response).

Pirates would very much prefer that traders submit, we don't want to have to destroy T6's & Asp's all the time - but most of the time they resist and die. Perhaps this is a UI/design issue because panicking players may not read the comms panel, I don't know.

These issues with piracy need to be resolved before pirates get slapped with heavy karma penalties though.

Edit: See my sig for some improvement suggestions.

I like most of the suggestions in your signature, but please keep in mind that in order to have piracy working it needs to be "consensual". While it's true that people accept the possibility of getting pirated when they join Open, you also need to accept the possibility that these players escape your piracy attempts. There is no reason the game should gurantee you a 100% win chance against someone who has every right to *not get pirated*. You want something from him, your playstyle depends on them. When you are pirating you are basically asking them a favour, "please continue to play with me, please be my content and enjoyment". The guy getting pirated gets nothing from this encounter. Apart from the thrill, but he can also have that against NPCs by flying a shieldless T6. Pirates are the kids nobody wants to play with in a sandbox, that's why you should be extraordinary nice when you threaten to use your lasers.

 

[CMDR MERANGO]

Why is it necessary to continually have this discussion? It does not matter what the many think is the right thing, FDev make the rules and by the Gods, old and new, there are enough opinions on this subject within the Forums to keep FDev busy beyond the next millennia.

Let FDev concentrate on other aspects of the game.

CMIV