Same here. The FCS is a good smooth and ergonomic setup that doesn't aggravate orthotic issues too badly. The stick has some tension to it, but it's smooth tension and using it at a good height that allows you to use larger muscle groups makes it quite easy to move around for longer play sessions.
Question for HOTAS Users - Any Issues with Repetitive Stress or Fatigue
- Thread starter Daniel Cloudsifter
- Start date
Same here. The FCS is a good smooth and ergonomic setup that doesn't aggravate orthotic issues too badly. The stick has some tension to it, but it's smooth tension and using it at a good height that allows you to use larger muscle groups makes it quite easy to move around for longer play sessions.
I've stopped playing for the moment because twisting the joystick maneouvering around stars and squeezing the trigger to honk at the same time has given me warning signs of inflammation/pain in my right hand and index finger. So I'm giving it a rest as a precaution.
Everybody's experience will be different, but I think you have to take the common sense approach. The less continuous play for hours on end, day after day, the less risk of permanent damage. And if pain starts - stop and give it a rest.
Voice Attack sounds like a good solution to my problems
Everybody's experience will be different, but I think you have to take the common sense approach. The less continuous play for hours on end, day after day, the less risk of permanent damage. And if pain starts - stop and give it a rest.
Voice Attack sounds like a good solution to my problems
I have an old Saitek X45 and the rudder controls (built into the underside of the throttle) used to give me pretty bad cramp in my hand.
The problem is that the rocker-control was way too far "underneath" the throttle, forcing you to curl your hand around the throttle to access the control.
In the end I made an "extension" for the rudder control out of a lump of 2mm aluminium plate so the control is now exactly where I want it.
Problem solved.
The problem is that the rocker-control was way too far "underneath" the throttle, forcing you to curl your hand around the throttle to access the control.
In the end I made an "extension" for the rudder control out of a lump of 2mm aluminium plate so the control is now exactly where I want it.
Problem solved.
I have an X 52 and pedals. I would never go back to twist rudder though I do understand that pedals are pricey feature wise. Though Rudder is fairly mild in ED, I still think twist rudder is bad for wrist strain.
Setting up a Hotas at proper height is a good idea. I have mine sitting on my desk and it is definitely too high for truly good ergonomics, I get some shoulder strain from long sessions. The hand rest adjustment on the X 52 joystick is a nice feature.
Setting up a Hotas at proper height is a good idea. I have mine sitting on my desk and it is definitely too high for truly good ergonomics, I get some shoulder strain from long sessions. The hand rest adjustment on the X 52 joystick is a nice feature.
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned, which is vitally important for a HOTAS is positioning. Bad position where your arm/wrist is not in line with the resting height of the HOTAS will cause you all sorts of pain. If playing at a desk, there are clamps you can get to adjust heights properly. I originally played on my desk, without any height adjustment and could not play for more than an hour or so without getting pain. With them in the right spots I can play almost all day.
Would also agree with others to avoid twist sticks, especially for the amount you will use it in ED. Its not a natural feeling movement.
The other consideration may also be the weight/tension on the devices. For example the Warthog is fairly firm, requires some pressure to move toggles or joystick. You adapt to this over time but if you have ongoing issues with pain it might be worth weighing up your options there.
Would recommend a HOTAS overall though.
Would also agree with others to avoid twist sticks, especially for the amount you will use it in ED. Its not a natural feeling movement.
The other consideration may also be the weight/tension on the devices. For example the Warthog is fairly firm, requires some pressure to move toggles or joystick. You adapt to this over time but if you have ongoing issues with pain it might be worth weighing up your options there.
Would recommend a HOTAS overall though.
I was involved in an ergonomic redesign of an uh "audio typewriter".
The original design was used by soundies for commercial radio. The acid from the sweat on their wrists would eat through the metal. I think cutting ads for commercial radio would have to rank as one of the worst jobs ever. *
One of the core principles of the redesign was that the functions needed to be spaced out and that the actions needed to involve more body movement, not less.
So I've always been wary of putting everything right at your fingertips.
I have a HOTAS, pedals and custom button box. But I'm not properly qualified to recommend anything as my gaming sessions are at most 3 hours at a stretch.
The original design was used by soundies for commercial radio. The acid from the sweat on their wrists would eat through the metal. I think cutting ads for commercial radio would have to rank as one of the worst jobs ever. *
One of the core principles of the redesign was that the functions needed to be spaced out and that the actions needed to involve more body movement, not less.
So I've always been wary of putting everything right at your fingertips.
I have a HOTAS, pedals and custom button box. But I'm not properly qualified to recommend anything as my gaming sessions are at most 3 hours at a stretch.
Thanks, both of you. It's good to know it might not only be a problem, but that it may be a better solution.
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. It sounds like I should definitely give a HOTAS a try... and possibly pedals instead of a twisting stick... and be careful of the positioning.
I find that using a joystick (even one with a twisting motion) provides relief from excessive mouse and keyboard use.
I'm a programmer and spend all day at the keyboard. I have mild carpel tunnel. When I play first-person-shooters, I find that my mouse arm really starts to bother me. I don't have that problem with ED, since I use a joystick, although my trigger finger can fatigue after a while.
Instead of spending big bucks on a HOTAS that you might find uncomfortable to use, I'd suggest trying a low-cost joystick and throttle combo, like I use. I have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. It has a twisting joystick and 16 buttons (including a 4-way hat control). It has an integrated throttle "paddle" control.
I like it a lot. It's inexpensive and takes up less desk space than a full HOTAS. It doesn't really have enough buttons for ED, so I use the keyboard Shift and Ctrl keys in combination with the joystick buttons to trigger actions, for seldom-used commands like "open cargo hatch".
Mine cost less than $40 US and I've been using it over a year now: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826102204
I also use VoiceAttack with the Obsidian Ant HCS VoicePack for some commands. You should consider using it, since it offers a hands-free method of control. It's got some "lag" between the command and the action, so I only use it for non-critical commands like "request docking" and "raise landing gear".
https://www.hcsvoicepacks.com/collections/voice-packs/products/obsidian-performed-by-obsidian-ant
If you'd prefer the "ship's computer" voice, this is voiced by the same woman as ED: https://www.hcsvoicepacks.com/collections/voice-packs/products/verity
There are many voices to choose from.
I'm a programmer and spend all day at the keyboard. I have mild carpel tunnel. When I play first-person-shooters, I find that my mouse arm really starts to bother me. I don't have that problem with ED, since I use a joystick, although my trigger finger can fatigue after a while.
Instead of spending big bucks on a HOTAS that you might find uncomfortable to use, I'd suggest trying a low-cost joystick and throttle combo, like I use. I have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. It has a twisting joystick and 16 buttons (including a 4-way hat control). It has an integrated throttle "paddle" control.
I like it a lot. It's inexpensive and takes up less desk space than a full HOTAS. It doesn't really have enough buttons for ED, so I use the keyboard Shift and Ctrl keys in combination with the joystick buttons to trigger actions, for seldom-used commands like "open cargo hatch".
Mine cost less than $40 US and I've been using it over a year now: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826102204
I also use VoiceAttack with the Obsidian Ant HCS VoicePack for some commands. You should consider using it, since it offers a hands-free method of control. It's got some "lag" between the command and the action, so I only use it for non-critical commands like "request docking" and "raise landing gear".
https://www.hcsvoicepacks.com/collections/voice-packs/products/obsidian-performed-by-obsidian-ant
If you'd prefer the "ship's computer" voice, this is voiced by the same woman as ED: https://www.hcsvoicepacks.com/collections/voice-packs/products/verity
There are many voices to choose from.
Last edited:
I've literally gone 10+ hours at a stretch, and about the only thing that really bothered me is that my hands felt a little cramped by the end. I'm using an X-52 Pro, and it's about as natural as it can get. No RSI, no ill effects, other than when I binge and don't take a break now and again.
I've put my keyboard on the desk proper next to the mouse and moved my CH kit to the pullout. It's braced so it won't move around (make sure your pullout won't eventually get loosened from the long-term movements), and I have that cutting board undergrip material attached to the surface so the stick and throttle can't slip.
For other games I can move the sticks to easily get back to the keyset, and for Elite with a HOTAS the keyset is usually all the second-tier control systems anyway, though it's still easily reachable past the flight gear for textcomms and station business. The keyset is where I keep stuff like Highway Maps, Space Headlights and the Throw All Your Things Away button.
I personally don't use twist but that's more due to chronic over-Englishing on my piloting with a twist. Much better with my pedals. Right now they're mapped to roll, with a recent addition of toe sweep analog U/D thrusters (thanks again Gunnet). Apart from utility, in terms of this thread, putting my U/D on the pedals moved two functions off my throttle that needed constant button pushing with an index and middle finger for an entire session every session. Making them analog saves me from early-Playstation feathering techniques for smooth input and and also forever less constant repetitive control manipulation.
I'd probably avoid the Warthog stick if fatigue is an issue, especially if you have long play sessions. It's a heavy device and whilst that does stop it moving around the desk, the movement of the stick is very solid, and it does require a fair bit more pressure to move the stick than the X52 does (which I used to have).
Deleted member 38366
D
Personally, I found the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro so far the most ergonomic stick to use.
- low but good and precise resistances
- both hands can rest on the stick/base in a very comfy way (relaxed play)
- very low "movement-to-input", meaning minimal hand movements allow to control the entire HOTAS to full range (essentially if can often be nearly 100% utilized using only Finger movements, Combat being the only exception)
Playing even very long periods with this one never gave me any issues.
My Thrustmaster T.Flight HOTAS X is also nice but requires more movement to achieve full range of inputs, after repeated long sessions I clearly felt that in my hands/on the skin.
- low but good and precise resistances
- both hands can rest on the stick/base in a very comfy way (relaxed play)
- very low "movement-to-input", meaning minimal hand movements allow to control the entire HOTAS to full range (essentially if can often be nearly 100% utilized using only Finger movements, Combat being the only exception)
Playing even very long periods with this one never gave me any issues.
My Thrustmaster T.Flight HOTAS X is also nice but requires more movement to achieve full range of inputs, after repeated long sessions I clearly felt that in my hands/on the skin.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hotas and rift user.
Have my X52 setup on my chair that mimics exactly the in-game chair control position. I feel it as comfortable as it can get.
Have my X52 setup on my chair that mimics exactly the in-game chair control position. I feel it as comfortable as it can get.
As you can see everyone is different, so with our experiences you should be able to choose correctly
Then my x52 pro died, luckily I had a brand new x55 in its box sat in the corner gathering dust. The 2ndary fire(thumb button) on it is superb,and I can scan and manoeuvre at the same time.
Me too. 2ndary fire on my superb x52 pro always felt a bit off, especially if you manoeuvred and twisted at the same time as firing and holding for scan.
Then my x52 pro died, luckily I had a brand new x55 in its box sat in the corner gathering dust. The 2ndary fire(thumb button) on it is superb,and I can scan and manoeuvre at the same time.
Long-time RSI sufferer here - IRL I sometimes have to alternate between left and right for mouse, and when it gets really bad I use Dragon Naturally Speaking for dictation...
... but no additional problems from HOTAS use - mine's a Warthog, and the only problem I get is right thumb fatigue when honking the ADS on long trips.
Planning to get a Monstertech desk clamp for it - from what I read they're expensive but well built and I want a more natural arm position for the stick.
... but no additional problems from HOTAS use - mine's a Warthog, and the only problem I get is right thumb fatigue when honking the ADS on long trips.
Planning to get a Monstertech desk clamp for it - from what I read they're expensive but well built and I want a more natural arm position for the stick.
Yo OP. Sorry to hear about your illness, that very same condition wrecked my mum for about 12 years, although she was much older than I assume you are which apparently can make it worse so I hope you can bounce back more easily .
While each stick of a hotas has it's own characteristics, for you I will hazard that placement of the stick will make more difference to any fatigue, muscular issues or pain you may experience. Many people have a hotas on a desk, usually the desk their keyboards are on meaning their elbow hangs below the stick and from elbow to wrist the arm angles upwards. This puts a fair amounts of strain on the joints to the point many complain about pain and find it difficult to use sticks claiming they are "larger" or "stiffer" or made for "bigger hands".
The trick for you for ultimate comfort would be to find a way to place the stick lower than your elbow, either at your side or between your legs on something. The lower the stick is the less strain it will place on your arms and the easier it will feel to move, even the "heavier" hotas sticks become much more manageable and easy to use when placed like this along with enabling better precision due to a more natural arm placement and movement.
Some of the less resistant sticks I have used in terms of general stick play are the x52 and the t16000m hotas, I guess in your case there will be good days and bad days but the more expensive units I have owned like a warthog and saitek x55 and x56 have been weightier and harder to use and move off centre etc. It's hard to talk about the twist on sticks because 3 different units of the same model can all feel different when it comes to that, but again the more expensive sticks in my experience tend to be stiffer (after using several of each model).
.While each stick of a hotas has it's own characteristics, for you I will hazard that placement of the stick will make more difference to any fatigue, muscular issues or pain you may experience. Many people have a hotas on a desk, usually the desk their keyboards are on meaning their elbow hangs below the stick and from elbow to wrist the arm angles upwards. This puts a fair amounts of strain on the joints to the point many complain about pain and find it difficult to use sticks claiming they are "larger" or "stiffer" or made for "bigger hands".
The trick for you for ultimate comfort would be to find a way to place the stick lower than your elbow, either at your side or between your legs on something. The lower the stick is the less strain it will place on your arms and the easier it will feel to move, even the "heavier" hotas sticks become much more manageable and easy to use when placed like this along with enabling better precision due to a more natural arm placement and movement.
Some of the less resistant sticks I have used in terms of general stick play are the x52 and the t16000m hotas, I guess in your case there will be good days and bad days but the more expensive units I have owned like a warthog and saitek x55 and x56 have been weightier and harder to use and move off centre etc. It's hard to talk about the twist on sticks because 3 different units of the same model can all feel different when it comes to that, but again the more expensive sticks in my experience tend to be stiffer (after using several of each model).
Yes Hotas X here, sometimes a little in my thumb if I fly for hours, but nowhere near as bad as the xbox 360 controller which ruined my hands.
I am left handed and swapped mouse hand from left to right after years of long studio sessions giving me mouse claw..
I am left handed and swapped mouse hand from left to right after years of long studio sessions giving me mouse claw..